Just like any other KMC we have to go by Current versions and feats. Eternity was raped by a single hand of a infinite. Thats like a man crushing a baby in a palm of his hand.
They are mulitversal but they don't have much to go by. Also since spectre has some great showings but sometime those showings is with amps. He also has some low showings. Anyway IMO Infinites are atleast around LT level.
Originally posted by Lord Feron
Just like any other KMC we have to go by Current versions and feats. Eternity was raped by a single hand of a infinite. Thats like a man crushing a baby in a palm of his hand.They are mulitversal but they don't have much to go by. Also since spectre has some great showings but sometime those showings is with amps. He also has some low showings. Anyway IMO Infinites are atleast around LT level.
Originally posted by tjcoady
I disagree.Obviously any character can win if a "Supreme" being desires them to win, but the Spectre has always been and will always be, a special case.
It's too obvious that the Spectre's powers are dependent on the will of the Presence/God/Elaine/whatever the **** you want to call it.
Even in the original Corrigan days, this was a fact of his powers.
Trust me, I've gone to ground searching for Spectre loses just because I was annoyed about versus threads about the Spectre, and I have seen every single time he's lost and ever time he's won; and they are all over the place. I've seen the Spectre lose to superheroes, demons, 4/5 D imps, Monitor level beings, angelic or demonic beings from Vertigo (from Lucifer to Native American Gods to Animal Gods in the shitty issues of Animal Man) to the Great Evil Beast and Cain. But when the writer decides that the Presence wants the Spectre to win, he does.
The Spectre wins when the writer decides the Presence is behind him. And when the writer is someone who writes good stories like Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman, or Mike Carey, that works. I mean, even in the more recent issues of the Blue Beetle, the Scarab was suggesting world destroying options, and it was acknowledged that they wouldn't even come close to harming the Spectre.
You want to dig deep?
Lets quote John Constantine, who, although a liar, knows more about DC magic than anyone. And since Grant Morrison says fiction counts more than anything else, well, lets just listen.
"Whatever it is, sometimes it's the most powerful thing in the universe. And sometimes it's just a little man in green tights" (Books of Magic, Two)
And this is the John Constantine, who remembers the events of the original Crisis without distraction, who can stroll through battles between the Anti-Monitor and the Multiverse's superheroes like it doesn't even exist.... classic John Constantine who makes Moore's Swamp Thing look like a fool.
Whatever. The Spectre isn't one of those characters who gets narration like Captain America where it says "they always wins." The Spectre's powerset IS literally that he will win unless the Presence says he doesn't. That's what he does. It's been established too many times to argue with.
Anyways, Bentley, I'm not arguing with your logic. I agree WAY too much to do that. We have too many characters here on the KMC boards that get fan-wanked about how it's in their powerset to always win (Flash, The Silver Surfer, Darkseid, Superman, Punisher, Batman.... you could go on for days with characters from street level to Beyonder-leverl).....
But the Spectre has to be a special case. It's been shown too many times that "being the special case" is literally his powers to argue with that.
Originally posted by fangirl101
Becuz being more powerful than eternity is a big Whoop. Mxy is more powerful than eternity. By a fair bit. And The Spectre could destroy the whole race of imps if he so chose.
In addition to being owned by Emperor Joker, he was also owned by the blue 5-D genie...Lkz, or something like that.
Originally posted by tjcoady
I disagree.Obviously any character can win if a "Supreme" being desires them to win, but the Spectre has always been and will always be, a special case.
It's too obvious that the Spectre's powers are dependent on the will of the Presence/God/Elaine/whatever the **** you want to call it.
Even in the original Corrigan days, this was a fact of his powers.
Trust me, I've gone to ground searching for Spectre loses just because I was annoyed about versus threads about the Spectre, and I have seen every single time he's lost and ever time he's won; and they are all over the place. I've seen the Spectre lose to superheroes, demons, 4/5 D imps, Monitor level beings, angelic or demonic beings from Vertigo (from Lucifer to Native American Gods to Animal Gods in the shitty issues of Animal Man) to the Great Evil Beast and Cain. But when the writer decides that the Presence wants the Spectre to win, he does.
The Spectre wins when the writer decides the Presence is behind him. And when the writer is someone who writes good stories like Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman, or Mike Carey, that works. I mean, even in the more recent issues of the Blue Beetle, the Scarab was suggesting world destroying options, and it was acknowledged that they wouldn't even come close to harming the Spectre.
You want to dig deep?
Lets quote John Constantine, who, although a liar, knows more about DC magic than anyone. And since Grant Morrison says fiction counts more than anything else, well, lets just listen.
"Whatever it is, sometimes it's the most powerful thing in the universe. And sometimes it's just a little man in green tights" (Books of Magic, Two)
And this is the John Constantine, who remembers the events of the original Crisis without distraction, who can stroll through battles between the Anti-Monitor and the Multiverse's superheroes like it doesn't even exist.... classic John Constantine who makes Moore's Swamp Thing look like a fool.
Whatever. The Spectre isn't one of those characters who gets narration like Captain America where it says "they always wins." The Spectre's powerset IS literally that he will win unless the Presence says he doesn't. That's what he does. It's been established too many times to argue with.
Anyways, Bentley, I'm not arguing with your logic. I agree WAY too much to do that. We have too many characters here on the KMC boards that get fan-wanked about how it's in their powerset to always win (Flash, The Silver Surfer, Darkseid, Superman, Punisher, Batman.... you could go on for days with characters from street level to Beyonder-leverl).....
But the Spectre has to be a special case. It's been shown too many times that "being the special case" is literally his powers to argue with that.
The problem is that, in this boards, should we suppose that god wants the Spectre to win every battle, wouldn't that degenerate to saying anyone who fights the Spectre effectively fights god?
Even if the observation would be valid in comics, I don't think it has any place to be debated in here, I mean, Galactus summons the UN, but its true that arguing about a Galactus fights and declaring he has an auto win because of the UN beats the point of using the character Galactus at all.
Eclipso was sort of the Spectre before, and while uber he is limited. Should we just assume that the Spectre has to be debated next to god everytime or should we go by feats (which are admittedly all around, I've seen him koed by gas) like with every other character?
Its true that the character is a literal deus in machina, nevertheless, if there is a character that "always has a plan" and we strip them from their plans, why should we make an special case of the Spectre?
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Wrath of god. Unless you are trying to spite him, the right answer is to NOT USE HIM. Spectre cannot lose unless the Presence doesn't want him to win or he's facing a supreme being.There are no feats that make Spectre lose. You can't use feats for someone whose power is determined by god's will.
I agree that not to use it is the best way to go. Not for the reasons you mention but because of the degeneration such discussions bring.
Probably Days of Vengeance Spectre is the most "usable" one in that regard.
Originally posted by TricksterPriestWhat is it's just the regular Spectre that we usually see in comics that isn't 'fully backed' or isn't without a host?
Wrath of god. Unless you are trying to spite him, the right answer is to NOT USE HIM. Spectre cannot lose unless the Presence doesn't want him to win or he's facing a supreme being.There are no feats that make Spectre lose. You can't use feats for someone whose power is determined by god's will.
Since we can't really go by the most current, we should be using the most common portrayal, not the one almost never seen in comics, and hasn't happened since Hal was Spectre...
Originally posted by Enyalus
That's the thing right there. A huge fallacy from the "If The Presence wants Spectre to win, he does" argument. I'm inclined to say that line of thought borders on retardation.Because clearly against COIE AM Spectre had God's full backing. Not only that, but he had an amp from dozens of powerful mages and 5-D beings. He still did not "win." So there goes that line of thought. And is someone really going to tell me that all of the times Spectre has lost (and there have been enough), God didn't want him to win? Like, for instance, the 5th Dimension War in the previous volume of JLA...which was going to destroy planet Earth and could've ended up wiping out all reality. Spectre was bound and beaten, in the Void. God wanted him to lose? Seriously, that's the Spectre base's argument?
I'm left to conclude that either a) God is a bastard. (I like that one, personally.) Or b) that line of thought is totally false.
There's also been the argument that, 'When Spectre has The Presence's backing, he's the Wrath of God.' And my reply to this is: No - he is always God's "fist." Spectre without God's backing doesn't become a different entity. He doesn't change his essence. He doesn't become something different. Case in point is the hostless Spectre of DOV. That incarnation did not have The Presence's support. In point of fact, The Presence wasn't even aware Spectre was off of his leash until he had destroyed the current Age of Magic. Was Spectre something different? Of course not. He was still the wrath of God. Still, quite literally, the spirit of Vengeance.
And he loses here, since this is Current Spectre.
...hmm... I wouldn't say that:
"Wolds within Worlds, Dimensions folding into themselves,
Entire UniverseS being born, and collapsing into ruin,
and yet I sense that ALL This -- is but a fraction of what Eternity is,
the core, the Heart of Eternity's being ... here All Energy, All Matter, lies,
I will detonate Eternity's Heart --- triggering another Creation event,
Re-Birthing every being and thing in All the UniverseS"
WOW! ... Eternity is the embodiment of the Omniverse!
"WithIN Eternity ... ALL That Ever Was, Ever Is, or Ever Will Be exists"
(sometimes both Infinity & Eternity are portrayed all, sometimes just Eternity)
WOW! ...
Now ...
the embodiment of all there is in Marvel getting handled like a toy by one finger/hand!
The Infinites are super omnipotents!
Yes, they are powerful. But not compared to the Spectre.
"That's the thing right there. A huge fallacy from the "If The Presence wants Spectre to win, he does" argument. I'm inclined to say that line of thought borders on retardation.
Because clearly against COIE AM Spectre had God's full backing. Not only that, but he had an amp from dozens of powerful mages and 5-D beings. He still did not "win." So there goes that line of thought. And is someone really going to tell me that all of the times Spectre has lost (and there have been enough), God didn't want him to win? Like, for instance, the 5th Dimension War in the previous volume of JLA...which was going to destroy planet Earth and could've ended up wiping out all reality. Spectre was bound and beaten, in the Void. God wanted him to lose? Seriously, that's the Spectre base's argument?
I'm left to conclude that either a) God is a bastard. (I like that one, personally.) Or b) that line of thought is totally false.
There's also been the argument that, 'When Spectre has The Presence's backing, he's the Wrath of God.' And my reply to this is: No - he is always God's "fist." Spectre without God's backing doesn't become a different entity. He doesn't change his essence. He doesn't become something different. Case in point is the hostless Spectre of DOV. That incarnation did not have The Presence's support. In point of fact, The Presence wasn't even aware Spectre was off of his leash until he had destroyed the current Age of Magic. Was Spectre something different? Of course not. He was still the wrath of God. Still, quite literally, the spirit of Vengeance.
And he loses here, since this is Current Spectre. "
Spectre violated his orders during COIE and as a result was busted down temporarily. God did not want him to try and destroy AM. Hence, why he stayed down after the fight. And story considerations do play against him using his full power, and of course, "what mortal mind can comprehend the will of god?"
When Spectre has the backing of the Presence, he's the UNSTOPPABLE Wrath of God. Without it, he can be delayed, but aside from the Spear or a supreme being like Mandrakk or GEB, never stopped.
The lowballing on Spectre is insulting. Per KMC rules, this is Spectre without any restrictions who is fighting at his best and not jobbing.
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33Yet one had to sacrifice his life just to fix what they did?
You don't.
The Infinites crossed all of time/space rearranging Galaxies,
that right there spells for an infinite number of problems to fix.
Still, the Infinite sacrificing himself was not due to need, but to want,
meaning, the Infinite did it as a geture of his respect for life,
sortalike, giving back for taking so much.
So, I'm sure the Infinite could've waved his hand and boom,
but instead, he chose to give his life,
and in turn also become one with all the life he took.
That was the purpose of the sacrifice my friend.
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33Super omnipotents could do it with a wave of their hand, you know that.
Which is exactly what that one Infinite did.
