Pre Retcon Beyonder vs

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
I see you just misunderstood me 🙂

Marvel Multiverse 85 = DC Multiverse 85

When the Beyonder was introduced to the Marvel Multiverse his Beyonder Realm has also become an part of the Marvelverse (all that is in Marvel comics) which makes it equal to the DC Multiverse.

And I'm telling you, and Mr. Master probably has the scans to back it up, that that isn't the case. The Beyond Realm was outside of the Marvel Universe. Regardless of whether it was introduced in a Marvel comic. It was not a part of the MU. It was outside of it. The MU itself was already infinite. And the Beyond Realm you already know is vastly larger. Therefore seeing as how the Beyond Realm was bigger than the MU, it would also be larger than the DCU of that time.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
So when AM came and expanded his Antimatterverse, the Antimatterverse and the DC Multiverse was equal then to the Marvelverse.

That's not what happened, either. The Anti-Monitor used his Anti-Matter Wave to destroy and absorb universes. That was what expanded. The Anti-matter Universe did not. In fact, a number was given for how large the AM Universe is in an issue of COIE. Know what it was? 32 zillion lightyears across. No, I didn't make a typo. The writer said 'zillion.' Stupid guy, apparently. But anyhow, clearly the AM Universe was not infinite, the number of universes AM ate was not infinite, and therefore you can't possibly unbiasedly say that someone's power who was not infinite (AM) was the equal of someone who had millions of times more than infinite power (Beyonder...and yes, I know the wording is stupid. But blame Shooter, not me.)

Originally posted by Enyalus

And I'm telling you, and Mr. Master probably has the scans to back it up, that that isn't the case. The Beyond Realm was outside of the Marvel Universe. Regardless of whether it was introduced in a Marvel comic. It was not a part of the MU. It was outside of it. The MU itself was already infinite. And the Beyond Realm you already know is vastly larger. Therefore seeing as how the Beyond Realm was bigger than the MU, it would also be larger than the DCU of that time.
[/B]

I don't doubt that the Beyonder Realm is > Marvel Multiverse nor that it is outside it, nor that it is vastly superior to the Marvel Multiverse. BUT it is still an part of marvel comics, of the marvel verse. Which in turn makes it equal to the dc verse (which is all that is in dc comics).

Originally posted by Enyalus

That's not what happened, either. The Anti-Monitor used his Anti-Matter Wave to destroy and absorb universes. That was what expanded. The Anti-matter Universe did not. In fact, a number was given for how large the AM Universe is in an issue of COIE. Know what it was? 32 zillion lightyears across. No, I didn't make a typo. The writer said 'zillion.' Stupid guy, apparently. But anyhow, clearly the AM Universe was not infinite, the number of universes AM ate was not infinite, and therefore you can't possibly unbiasedly say that someone's power who was not infinite (AM) was the equal of someone who had millions of times more than infinite power (Beyonder...and yes, I know the wording is stupid. But blame Shooter, not me.) [/B]

When COIE would happen in the Marvel Ominverse and AM would pawn everything leaving only 616 and 4 others, would you consider him then more powerful then the Pre-Rec Beyonder who only pawned an Multiverse? This kind of logic, as almost all logic in comics, can't work, because it's no logic at all, just an waste of brain cells. To make this pseudologic more simple an less stupid one should consider treating the companyverses as equals, regardless which universal terminology or concept it uses.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
I don't doubt that the Beyonder Realm is > Marvel Multiverse nor that it is outside it, nor that it is vastly superior to the Marvel Multiverse. BUT it is still an part of marvel comics, of the marvel verse. Which in turn makes it equal to the dc verse (which is all that is in dc comics).

That's not correct. But I'm not going to keep going around in circles, because now I'm just repeating myself.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
When COIE would happen in the Marvel Ominverse and AM would pawn everything leaving only 616 and 4 others, would you consider him then more powerful then the Pre-Rec Beyonder who only pawned an Multiverse?

Yes, PR Beyonder would kick COIE AM's ass.

Originally posted by Enyalus

That's not correct. But I'm not going to keep going around in circles, because now I'm just repeating myself.

Yes, PR Beyonder would kick COIE AM's ass. [/B]

I know what you try to tell me. That Marvel Comics (in this time represented through the Beyonder Realm and the Marvel Universe) are > DC Comics (represented through the DC Multiverse)

😐

And honestly this is just biased in the truest meaning of the word.

It's like talking with fundamentalists of an religion, Jew, Islam, Christ etc. All have differen't concepts and laws (though sometimes they seem similar), each one of them thinks it superior to all others, that it is the only one which is right. They won't accept that they are all brothers, all equals, praying all to the same god.

So if an Marvel fundamentalist wants to believe that "his" Comicverse is superior to another Comicverse, I won't mind or argue anymore. They can believe what they want, as wrong as it is 🙂

It's comics, it doesn't really matter, in an Crossover the results will always be the same. That's why in those Crossovers Kismet was = Eternity, LT = Spectre.

😉

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
I know what you try to tell me. That Marvel Comics (in this time represented through the Beyonder Realm and the Marvel Universe) are > DC Comics (represented through the DC Multiverse)

😐

That isn't what I'm trying to tell you. I'm trying to tell you that the '85 MU = the '85 DCU. AND that the Beyond Realm was larger than the MU, so naturally it might be larger than the DCU.

You're the one who switched the conversation and the language to 'comics' instead of 'universe.' I'm not playing the word games.

Originally posted by Enyalus
That isn't what I'm trying to tell you. I'm trying to tell you that the '85 MU = the '85 DCU. [b]AND that the Beyond Realm was larger than the MU, so naturally it might be larger than the DCU.

You're the one who switched the conversation and the language to 'comics' instead of 'universe.' I'm not playing the word games. [/B]

I preferred DCverse and Marvelverse, I just used Comic instead of verse to make myself more clear, but i see it's useless, nevermind 🙂

Let's change the subject 😉

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
I preferred DCverse and Marvelverse, I just used Comic instead of verse to make myself more clear, but i see it's useless, nevermind 🙂

Let's change the subject 😉

Okay.

....I forgot my original stance. But it was probably that PR Beyonder loses.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Okay.

....I forgot my original stance. But it was probably that PR Beyonder loses.

See we agree 🤘

but youre both wrong,lol,pr beyonder wins

The Beyonder get anal probed.

Originally posted by iceman24567
The Beyonder get anal probed.

You offering?

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

So you say that the Marvelverse which was the Beyonder Realm and the Marvel Multiverse (which was everthing there is in Marvel comics 85) is > the DC Multiverse 85 (which was everything there is in DC) ???

This sounds very biased and honestly I expected better of you...

"expect better from me?"

😆

If you wannba challenege me in this particular debate,
bring it,
but don't bring your unsupported delusional rendition of how/what Marvel was/is,
bring on panel proof, if backed up byu Handbooks good,
if backed up by the writer himself even better.

Bring it .. anytime dogs.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

BTW the Antimatter Universe grows with each Universe it destroyes, so when only 5 U were left it really was the ocean and the remaining 5 the last drop standing

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

Though I have to admit that I have my fun in this thread

I guess, although there's nothing funnier than that troll
fondling my jewels in his mind after nearly 3 years.

ps. You're not the troll btw.

Meh, it's not like his post gets even a second look, so ... who

Originally posted by Mr Master
Of course it sounds biased,
because you're twisting facts, and truth with fallacies and fantasies.
who

I think it's just an misunderstanding, I don't twist facts, why should I and how could I? We talk about two different Universal concepts of two differen't companies that should be considered equal.
There can be no facts in such discussions because those two don't work together, and if they did, like in DC vs Marvel, where they treated each other as equals, even as Brothers, we won't and can't consider it canon because one or both companies won't consider it canon either.

Originally posted by Mr Master

"expect better from me?"

😆
who

Yes, most of the time you bring informative post with nice scans. The only problem I see in you art of poasting is the way you use smileys. Some of them might be a little offensive to some people. Because of them you post change from informative to arrogant or offensive and it's hard to read them without some antipathy. Though you don't use them as often anymore you should consider to omit them in the future.
I know that there are enough people who use them and that it isn't easy. But one has to ask himself on which level he wants to post 😉.

Originally posted by Mr Master

If you wannba challenege me in this particular debate,
bring it,
but don't bring your unsupported delusional rendition of how/what Marvel was/is,
bring on panel proof, if backed up byu Handbooks good,
if backed up by the writer himself even better.

Bring it .. anytime dogs.
who

See I'm no Dog nor am I delusional, and if you read my posts you will see that I never doubted your or Enys definition of what Marvel IS or WAS. On the contrary, I dpo believe you. The discussion is not about what Marvel is, it's about what Marvel is in comparison to DC, and there the answer should always be equal, else one becomes biased. It's that simple. Something like this doesn't need scans just one or two quick and honest logical thoughts 🙂.

Originally posted by Enyalus

And I'm telling you, and Mr. Master probably has the scans to back it up, that that isn't the case. The Beyond Realm was outside of the Marvel Universe. Regardless of whether it was introduced in a Marvel comic. It was not a part of the MU. It was outside of it. The MU itself was already infinite. And the Beyond Realm you already know is vastly larger. Therefore seeing as how the Beyond Realm was bigger than the MU, it would also be larger than the DCU of that time.

That's not what happened, either. The Anti-Monitor used his Anti-Matter Wave to destroy and absorb universes. That was what expanded. The Anti-matter Universe did not. In fact, a number was given for how large the AM Universe is in an issue of COIE. Know what it was? 32 zillion lightyears across. No, I didn't make a typo. The writer said 'zillion.' Stupid guy, apparently. But anyhow, clearly the AM Universe was not infinite, the number of universes AM ate was not infinite, and therefore you can't possibly unbiasedly say that someone's power who was not infinite (AM) was the equal of someone who had millions of times more than infinite power (Beyonder...and yes, I know the wording is stupid. But blame Shooter, not me.) [/B]

Originally posted by Enyalus
I would just like to add to this that regardless of whether the '85-'86 DCU was as large as '84-'85 MU is irrelevant. Why? Because AM didn't absorb/destroy an infinite number of universes. Early in COIE, Pariah mentions he's seen the destruction of over 300 universes at the hands of the Anti-Matter wave. Much later, when there are only the three universes left (plus the two in that pocket realm), Barry Allen mentions that AM has destroyed a thousand universes. And IIRC, in the same issue, while AM is still in his universe getting set to absorb the power of the Anti-Matter universe, he says he's destroyed 'a thousand and more' universes. Marv Wolfman, the writer of COIE, lists the official count at 3,000 universes in the reprinted HC edition of COIE in....1999, I think. Which yeah, is absolutely impressive. But clearly, there is a number given and that can be measured.

"At the time, there was infinite number of Universes. The Anti-Monitor's attack, termed by some as the Crisis on Infinite Earths--left just one."

http://dccomics.com/dcu/heroes_and_villains/?hv=history_of_dcu/3&p=1

"You think of Earth as a singular planet. In fact, it was anything but. For this is not the story of a universe, but a multiverse. Where universes and planets such as Earth were replicated and mirrored across a vibrating infinite plane. Some barely different than the next, others drastically so. It was life beyond tibulation, beyond limit."

"Until the End came."

"The Anti-Matter Wave."

"Yes, a great wall of Anti-Matter energy that surged through universes, erasing everything in it's path."

Originally posted by Mr Master
Excellent find, 👆
that puts to rest the mis-information that's been dancing around here for a while.

Originally posted by Mr Master
No one but the supreme being of a company has any chance against Beyonder.

And Spectre was never equal to God,
he was given insight into what it was like to be God,
but that's inconsequential
since he couldn't even handled the momentary experience.

This thread is an epic fail. The beyond wrealm ispart of what is now the marvel omniverse. Period. The beyond wrealm isnrt some seperate from marvel reality. Cuit that crap bs out. It is owned by marvel and thus part of marvel.

Dc still has multiple multiverses as each of the 52 is in and of itself a multiverse. And there is still hypertime and vertigo. The antimatter universe is still out there somewhere. As are the higher dimensions. Thus every thing published by dc is part of the omnireality of dc.

That means both companies are equal. Dc even explained that one unviverse still housed the power of a multiverse. And hal jordan as parrallax reiterated this when he showed that even with the power of just one reality, he was able to create more and more.

The beyonder to date still has no record of defeating any omniversal being. We don't know how mich power his universe held either since it had no abstracts. A bog void universe with no power. Yeah it's bigger than the main marvel multiverse but in no way better.

And I'm sick of this crap where people try and use the feats of the currwnt LT to somehow boost the beyonder's status. Crap. A load of crap. The lt wasn't over the beyond wrealm which is part of marvel and also owned by toaa. So yeah get that sillyness outta here. At best the classic beyonder is as powerful as mxy. And I don't even give him that much credit. At least mxy on panel has fought gods wrath. He's retconned. Something only editors can do. He's destroyed all reality. He's remade it. He taken blast from the sum total of everything and created his own version of the endless. Hell he even owns comic realities.

PR Beyonder more or less = Mxy