Originally posted by UtrigitaPre Retcon MM did a good job of keeping Pre Retcon Beyonder at bay when they battled. He is included.
Meh, we later learned Beyonder wasn't even trying to kill him or the Multiverse,
he just wanted to leave & return to the Beyond Realm,
so he allowed himself to be supposedly killed as a baby,
but we know he was never killed.
Why he chose this type of exit is a Shooter plot device imo.
Originally posted by UtrigitaI said arguably equal on two occasions, one would be against COIE Anti Monitor, the other would be Spectre that battled GEB
Imo, based on this, Beyonder >>> AM
As for Spectre,
when he was shown what it was like to be DC's God,
he couldn't handle it and screamed in pain and did nothing with the power.
In the GEB incident, he did nothing special to my recollection.
Originally posted by Utrigitaand again Imo Dc and Marvel has when taking into account all of there long history with everyone included enough Fire Power to take down Pre Recton Beyonder.
Concerning Marvel,
only the supreme being (THOTI status) can hope to stalemate Beyonder,
and only TOAA can crush him, but placing anyone against TOAA is spite,
since TOAA only needs to stroke his pencil across paper to stomp.
Concerning DC,
the same imo, although, I could care less since that's another company.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Yea, he held his own for two panels,
then got stomped.Meh, we later learned Beyonder wasn't even trying to kill him or the Multiverse,
he just wanted to leave & return to the Beyond Realm,
so he allowed himself to be supposedly killed as a baby,
but we know he was never killed.Why he chose this type of exit is a Shooter plot device imo.
He still did rather well concerning that apparently no others could even hope to get near the beyonder in terms of power.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Anti-Monitor was taking out the DC Multiverse which was everything DC in 85'
Beyonder was millions of times more powerful than the Marvel Multiverse,
which was everything Marvel in 85'Imo, based on this, Beyonder >>> AM
Plus he had the Anti Matter Universe which was equally as large as the DC multiverse at that time, and you cannot imo take what was the case in one company and begin to apply it to another to another The Anti Monitor devoured almost every single universe out of a infinite amount of universes how large was this supposed infinite amount? None knows perhaps it was the size of the Marvel Multiverse perhaps it was the size of the Beyond Dimension, perhaps it was bigger then both, to my knowlegde we have no information that support ore disregard either.
Originally posted by Mr Master
As for Spectre,
when he was shown what it was like to be DC's God,
he couldn't handle it and screamed in pain and did nothing with the power.
In the GEB incident, he did nothing special to my recollection.
It was shown on panel that he couldn't handle the direct merging, I however wasn't refering to that, but two other incidents were arguably Spectre would be equal to the presence, GEB mostly because Spectre managed to stalemate GEB thumb. In the other Incident with Anti Monitor he supposedly had backing from the Presence along with the amp of multiply Magicians amping his powerlevels even further.
Originally posted by Mr Master
All honest opinions are respected by me.Concerning Marvel,
only the supreme being (THOTI status) can hope to stalemate Beyonder,
and only TOAA can crush him, but placing anyone against TOAA is spite,
since TOAA only needs to stroke his pencil across paper to stomp.Concerning DC,
the same imo, although, I could care less since that's another company.
And Thanos would from my point of view be included, so would the GEB which is from what I know a supreme being. We Disagree on what the Brothers are, but I think that they too would be capable of handling beyonder. Then there is Mxy that jumps around from all levels from clown to Near Supreme Being and the Ultimator etc.
Originally posted by UtrigitaHe still did rather well
concerning that apparently
no others could even hope to get near the beyonder in terms of power.
Originally posted by UtrigitaPlus he had the Anti Matter Universe which was equally as large as the DC multiverse at that time, and you cannot imo take what was the case in one company and begin to apply it to another to another
That's unfortunate that there's no direct statements of their Universal scope,
but Marvel did get technical, and it is known, when you compare the two,
Beyonder was an ocean, Marvel was a drop of water.
Originally posted by UtrigitaThe Anti Monitor devoured almost every single universe out of a infinite amount of universes how large was this supposed infinite amount? None knows perhaps it was the size of the Marvel Multiverse perhaps it was the size of the Beyond Dimension, perhaps it was bigger then both, to my knowlegde we have no information that support ore disregard either.
Originally posted by UtrigitaIt was shown on panel that he couldn't handle the direct merging,
I however wasn't refering to that,
but two other incidents were arguably Spectre would be equal to the presence
Originally posted by UtrigitaGEB mostly because Spectre managed to stalemate GEB thumb.
Originally posted by UtrigitaIn the other Incident with Anti Monitor he supposedly had backing from the Presence along with the amp of multiply Magicians amping his powerlevels even further.
Originally posted by UtrigitaAnd Thanos would from my point of view be included, so would the GEB which is from what I know a supreme being. We Disagree on what the Brothers are, but I think that they too would be capable of handling beyonder. Then there is Mxy that jumps around from all levels from clown to Near Supreme Being and the Ultimator etc.
That aside, let me ask you something:
Who was the supreme being of the Marvelverse in 1985?
Originally posted by Mr Master
We all or most agree that all companies are equally large,
it just so happens to be that Beyonder
was created to be ridiculously larger than the Marvel totality.That's unfortunate that there's no direct statements of their Universal scope,
but Marvel did get technical, and it is known, when you compare the two,
Beyonder was an ocean, Marvel was a drop of water.So if there's no direct gauge then we have to apply "Occam's razor" on this point,
and go for what's most probable,
and that's that the Marvel totality & DC totality is the same size.
I would just like to add to this that regardless of whether the '85-'86 DCU was as large as '84-'85 MU is irrelevant. Why? Because AM didn't absorb/destroy an infinite number of universes. Early in COIE, Pariah mentions he's seen the destruction of over 300 universes at the hands of the Anti-Matter wave. Much later, when there are only the three universes left (plus the two in that pocket realm), Barry Allen mentions that AM has destroyed a thousand universes. And IIRC, in the same issue, while AM is still in his universe getting set to absorb the power of the Anti-Matter universe, he says he's destroyed 'a thousand and more' universes. Marv Wolfman, the writer of COIE, lists the official count at 3,000 universes in the reprinted HC edition of COIE in....1999, I think. Which yeah, is absolutely impressive. But clearly, there is a number given and that can be measured.
Originally posted by EnyalusI would just like to add to this that regardless of whether the '85-'86 DCU was as large as '84-'85 MU is irrelevant. Why? Because AM didn't absorb/destroy an infinite number of universes. Early in COIE, Pariah mentions he's seen the destruction of over 300 universes at the hands of the Anti-Matter wave. Much later, when there are only the three universes left (plus the two in that pocket realm), Barry Allen mentions that AM has destroyed a thousand universes. And IIRC, in the same issue, while AM is still in his universe getting set to absorb the power of the Anti-Matter universe, he says he's destroyed 'a thousand and more' universes. Marv Wolfman, the writer of COIE, lists the official count at 3,000 universes in the reprinted HC edition of COIE in....1999, I think. Which yeah, is absolutely impressive. But clearly, there is a number given and that can be measured.
Originally posted by complexbrotherShe did not tear the omniverse or even the universe
she just (like this is a small feat) affected the earth.
==============================================
The Scarlet Witch's Reality Warp (the Chaos Wave)
==============================================
Meggan (attuned to the Timestream) saw Wanda's Wave of power coming:
"It is the End ... of All that is ... of All that will ever be"
..................................................................................................
The Wave passes through:
"I was hoping, praying with all my heart ... that is was just a bad dream"
..................................................................................................
"In the fullest sense of the word, we live totally ordered lives.
Time & Space, our every perception of Reality,
is defined, governed, by what we call natural laws.
They provide the foundation & structure of our very existence.
Now, imagine them totally stripped away.
No more boundaries,
what quantum physicists like to call Branes, between Dimensions"
"No coherence to Causality.
Only Primal Chaos,
beyond the comprehension of any sentience
no matter how grandiose its opinion of itself
And this is just the beginning"
..................................................................................................
Roma's Starlight Citadel (an Omniversal nexus) crashes also,
and since it is an access point to All Realities:
"from this venue,
the Guardian of Reality can view events on[i] EVERY PLANE of the OMNIVERSE"
..................................................................................................
..................................................................................................
We witness Wanda's power crashing All Realities in the Omniverse into one:
"[i]At the Center point of Creation is the Starlight Citadel of Brian's ultimate boss,
Roma, the Celestial Guardian.
Her power is all that her title implies and more.
Doesn't matter ... doesn't save her.
..................................................................................................
Finally all the UniverseS accessible through the Starlight Citadel are warped together:
"Her great Hall would fit entire Planets, with room to spare.
But when her Citadel falls,
that impossible vast space is suddenly crowded worse than rush hour ...
with an inconceivable variety and number of species,
as ALL the Dimensions there are suddenly crash together into one."
Nothing makes sense anymore, especially not who's supposed to be dead[/i]. (MJJ)
==============================================
As we can SEE!!!
The Chaos Wave resurrected Mad Jim Jaspers!
..................................................................................................
The Chaos Wave is literally Wanda's power:
..................................................................................................
PROOF!!! (or rather official Marvel Handbook confirmation)
In THREE separate Bios
1.
"During the Scarlet Witch's 'House of M' Reality Warp,
Jaspers Reformed alive merged with the Fury"
2.
"Mad Jim Jaspers has also returned,
brought back to life by the Scarlet Witch's recent Reality Warp"
3. Wanda even gave Layla the power to "Perceive Divergent Realities" with her Chaos Wave:
"Layla showed Cage glimpses of his life prior to the Scarlet Witch's Reality Warp"
========================================
Wanda warped the Omniverse!
............................................................................
The ENITRE Marvel Universe was Wanda's playground:
According to Marvel.com!
House of M
http://www.marvel.com/universe/House_of_M
"Marvel Universe was transformed into the House of M" (Earth-58163)
The Marvel freakin Universe baby ... Wanda warped it ALL!!!
.................................................................................................
ON PANEL Verification:
.................................................................................................
With the line "No More mutants",
Wanda managed to shift Reality "causing cracks across ALL Realities."
Allowing the Shadow King to slip back into the 616 universe.
............................................................................
Balasco says,
"Two Siblings" (Wanda & Pietro)
"Force ALL of Reality to CHANGE"
............................................................................
Carol (Ms Marvel) says,
"She changed the World once huh?"
"Yes, ... but She Altered ALL of Reality"
NOT just the World, but ALL of Reality"
............................................................................
Again, more Bio confirmation:
............................................................................
Ms Marvel's mini-2008 Spring bio, (on panel) states,
"When an insane Scarlet Witch warped All Reality"
............................................................................
Indeed:
"Not long ago, the Omniverse was swept
by a Temporal Reality Wave of unimaginable power,
that literally tore the Continuum to bits and Re-arranged it"
............................................................................
Indeed again!
Nightcrawler tells Cyclops,
"Rachel mentioned something from her dream
about a powerful 'Chaos Wave'
Scott, what's going on Just what are we dealing with here? ... "
Scott responds,
"Good Lord, Wanda, what else have YOU done to us?"
========================================
So to this day, still right now,
Wanda's feat is recognized as affecting All of Marvel's Reality. (everything)
.................................................................................................
*****
HOM Wanda tore the Omniverse to pieces, she morphed everything into one,
only 616 was left, which was itself, totality warped into her Mutant paradise.
She then with a thought rebooted everything (omniverse) to normal,
with the exception of erasing the mutant gene from 90% of all Mutants,
seemingly across all Timelines.
That's one of the epic feats in Marvel, there are others
swank
Originally posted by Mr Master
Anti-Monitor was taking out the DC Multiverse which was everything DC in 85'
Beyonder was millions of times more powerful than the Marvel Multiverse,
which was everything Marvel in 85'Imo, based on this, Beyonder >>> AM
I think you have just found the right way how we can end all disagreements between the DC and Marvel cosmic fractions 🙂.
For this to be possible we have to treat the companies as equals.
We have to take the cosmic beings by the time they appeared in and what influence they had in this particular period. Like the Pre-Rec Beyonder. Who was the most powerful being in his time.
Though, no offense, but your analogy is wrong in one important point.
If you say DC Multiverse 85 is like the Marvel Mutliverse 85 and Beyonder is much more then the 85 Marvel Multiverse, which is true, you also state that the Beyonder is much more then the DC Multiverse, which is wrong.
To be fair, and to treat both companies as equals one has to accept that the
85 Marvel Multiverse (the drop of water) and the Beyonder Realm (Ocean) = all that is in Marvel.
85 DC Multiverse = all that is in DC.
it's as simple as that.
From this we can now see that AM in COIE who destroyed almost everything in the DC Multiverse (the number doesn't really matter) except 5, was the equal of the Pre Rec Beyonder. The Antimatter Universe was the Ocean and the Remaining DC Multiverse was the water drop.
So Pre-Rec Beyonder = COIE AM = Mxy in World Funnest = Thanos THOTU = CA superman (in superman Beyond(er) 😛 = Parallax
It's just important to stick to those times, because with quotes from different comics some statements will be just misleading and favor ones interpretation and not the truth 😉
Originally posted by Batman-PrimeI think you have just found the right way how we can end all disagreements between the DC and Marvel cosmic fractions 🙂.
For this to be possible we have to treat the companies as equals.
We have to take the cosmic beings by the time they appeared in and what influence they had in this particular period. Like the Pre-Rec Beyonder. Who was the most powerful being in his time.
Originally posted by Batman-PrimeThough, no offense, but your analogy is wrong in one important point.
If you say DC Multiverse 85 is like the Marvel Mutliverse 85 and Beyonder is much more then the 85 Marvel Multiverse, which is true, you also state that the Beyonder is much more then the DC Multiverse, which is wrong.
Originally posted by Batman-PrimeTo be fair, and to treat both companies as equals one has to accept that the
85 Marvel Multiverse (the drop of water) and the Beyonder Realm (Ocean) = all that is in Marvel.
85 DC Multiverse = all that is in DC.
it's as simple as that.
From this we can now see that AM in COIE who destroyed almost everything in the DC Multiverse (the number doesn't really matter) except 5, was the equal of the Pre Rec Beyonder. The Antimatter Universe was the Ocean and the Remaining DC Multiverse was the water drop.
All of Marvel was the infinite Multiverse,
the Beyonder was from a separate/disconnected creation called the Beyond Realm.
AM wasn't any ocean, both Universes were the same just opposites,
while Beyonder was the ocean, and all of Marvel was a drop of water.
Even though Beyonder was obviously created from withIN the same company,
it doesn't matter, that's how the character was set up to be by SHooter.
Originally posted by Batman-PrimeSo Pre-Rec Beyonder = COIE AM = Mxy in World Funnest = Thanos THOTU = CA superman (in superman Beyond(er) = Parallax
Originally posted by Mr Master
Cool.I disagree.
Wrong.
All of Marvel was the infinite Multiverse,
the Beyonder was from a separate/disconnected creation called the Beyond Realm.AM wasn't any ocean, both Universes were the same just opposites,
while Beyonder was the ocean, and all of Marvel was a drop of water.Even though Beyonder was obviously created from withIN the same company,
it doesn't matter, that's how the character was set up to be by SHooter.😂
So you say that the Marvelverse which was the Beyonder Realm and the Marvel Multiverse (which was everthing there is in Marvel comics 85) is > the DC Multiverse 85 (which was everything there is in DC) ???
😐
This sounds very biased and honestly I expected better of you...
BTW the Antimatter Universe grows with each Universe it destroyes, so when only 5 U were left it really was the ocean and the remaining 5 the last drop standing
Originally posted by Batman-Prime😆 👆
So you say that the Marvelverse which was the Beyonder Realm and the Marvel Multiverse (which was everthing there is in Marvel comics 85) is > the DC Multiverse 85 (which was everything there is in DC) ???😐
This sounds very biased and honestly I expected better of you...
BTW the Antimatter Universe grows with each Universe it destroyes, so when only 5 U were left it really was the ocean and the remaining 5 the last drop standing
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
So you say that the Marvelverse which was the Beyonder Realm and the Marvel Multiverse (which was everthing there is in Marvel comics 85) is > the DC Multiverse 85 (which was everything there is in DC) ???😐
This sounds very biased and honestly I expected better of you...
No. What he is saying is what you essentially agreed to previously before changing your stance in the very same post. '85 Marvelverse and the '85 DCU are equal. You agree to this point. Here's where you're getting lost:
The Beyond Realm isn't a part of the MU. It is, as the name implies, Beyond it. The Beyonder was millions of times stronger than all of the MU. The Beyond Realm was like an Ocean to the MU's drop of water. So if we include our previous premise, that the DCU was equal to the MU in size back in '85 prior to the AM-Wave, then by substitution the Beyonder and the Beyond Realm would also be millions of times larger than the DCU.
If you're committed to holding the two companies as equal, which you said you wanted to do.
Like this:
'85 DCU = '85 MU in size.
Beyond Realm >>> '85 MU.
Beyonder = Millions of times more powerful than '85 MU.
Thus, we can say that:
Beyond Realm >>> '85 DCU
Beyonder = Millions of times more powerful than the '85 DCU.
If you hold to them being equal. And if you don't...well, who looks biased then?
Originally posted by Enyalus
No. What he is saying is what you essentially agreed to previously before changing your stance in the very same post. '85 Marvelverse and the '85 DCU are equal. You agree to this point. Here's where you're getting lost:The Beyond Realm isn't a part of the MU. It is, as the name implies, Beyond it. The Beyonder was millions of times stronger than all of the MU. The Beyond Realm was like an Ocean to the MU's drop of water. So if we include our previous premise, that the DCU was equal to the MU in size back in '85 prior to the AM-Wave, then by substitution the Beyonder and the Beyond Realm would also be millions of times larger than the DCU.
If you're committed to holding the two companies as equal, which you said you wanted to do.
Like this:
'85 DCU = '85 MU in size.
Beyond Realm >>> '85 MU.
Beyonder = Millions of times more powerful than '85 MU.Thus, we can say that:
Beyond Realm >>> '85 DCU
Beyonder = Millions of times more powerful than the '85 DCU.If you hold to them being equal. And if you don't...well, who looks biased then?
I see you just misunderstood me 🙂
Marvel Multiverse 85 = DC Multiverse 85
When the Beyonder was introduced to the Marvel Multiverse his Beyonder Realm has also become an part of the Marvelverse (all that is in Marvel comics) which makes it equal to the DC Multiverse. simple isn't it, I said we have to stick to the point, the time, where someone has appeared and judge it. So when AM came and expanded his Antimatterverse, the Antimatterverse and the DC Multiverse was equal then to the Marvelverse.
You see, I just try to treat both as equals 🙂
I would never say that the DC Multiverse and the Antimatterverse are > the Marvel Multiverse from 1980, on the contrary. But saying that the Beyonder Realm + the Marvel Multiverse (all that is an part of marvel comics) is > the DC Multiverse (or the DC Multiverse and the Antimatterverse) which also is all that is in DC comics, is just biased.
here my quote from an previous post maybe you will understand now better what i mean.
We have to take the cosmic beings by the time they appeared in and what influence they had in this particular period. Like the Pre-Rec Beyonder. Who was the most powerful being in his time.
So is someone going to measure the size of every universe from every company...start a grid and measure distance?...hey why dont we pick a favorite company and find every instance from every writer..and find all editors notes...and lets try and come up with which universe/multiverse/megaverse is bigger.?..hey maybe 3000 universes are really bigger than 3000 universes from another company..hey i know i have seen a poster actually try and measure a drop of water in ratio to a ocean...😆 ..you know the more i read this thread...the more my respect for the debating at KMC drops....its getting sad people..real sad 😘
Originally posted by starlock
So is someone going to measure the size of every universe from every company...start a grid and measure distance?...hey why dont we pick a favorite company and find every instance from every writer..and find all editors notes...and lets try and come up with which universe/multiverse/megaverse is bigger.?..hey maybe 3000 universes are really bigger than 3000 universes from another company..hey i know i have seen a poster actually try and measure a drop of water in ratio to a ocean...😆 ..you know the more i read this thread...the more my respect for the debating at KMC drops....its getting sad people..real sad 😘
👆
Exactly
If we stop treating the different companies as equals and comapre only the terminology without accepting that both work with different universal concepts, we end up having such discussions.
If DC would decide to introduce the Bongoverse and say it consists of an infinite number of Omniverses (which is an contradiction but comics are no science and contradict each other pretty often. It wouldn't mean that the Bongo DC Verse is > the Marvel Ominverse or the Marvel Multiverse from 85. It's still just the DC verse and it's as big as the Marvelverse.
Though Starlock I have to admit that I have my fun in this thread 😂
