Wonder Woman vs. Mindless Hulk

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
My point's been proven. Either way, doing something repeatedly at rapid fire does not govern solely whether someone has superspeed. However, for you: You believe that if someone can move their arms at superspeed, that fact, in and of itself, is enough context to suggest that whenever we see the person attack in a flurry of punches, it must be at superspeeds. Even though it's an isolated instance.

Thus, by your standards: Since we've already determined that Thor can move his arms at superspeeds, if I show you scans of Thor repeatedly pounding on something with Mjolnir in a single panel and that thing is vibrating with squiggly lines, is that enough for you to be convinced that Thor can attack with Mjolnir strikes at superspeeds?

Hulk wins.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
My point's been proven. Either way, doing something repeatedly at rapid fire does not govern solely whether someone has superspeed. However, for you: You believe that if someone can move their arms at superspeed, that fact, in and of itself, is enough context to suggest that whenever we see the person attack in a flurry of punches, it must be at superspeeds. Even though it's an isolated instance.

Thus, by your standards: Since we've already determined that Thor can move his arms at superspeeds, if I show you scans of Thor repeatedly pounding on something with Mjolnir in a single panel and that thing is vibrating with squiggly lines, is that enough for you to be convinced that Thor can attack with Mjolnir strikes at superspeeds?

So this isn't really about who would win now but about what level of speed WW has or at least about what a specific scan proves?

^ I'm commenting about a scan that was posted for the proposition that Wonderwoman would take down Mindless Hulk in a hail of punches in the way that Power-Trip was.

Originally posted by fangirl101
I'm pretty tired of you. So here is a way to shut you up. If flash or zoom or superman were drawn attacking someone just like wondy is drawn then should it lso have to be stated that they r attacking at superspeed or should we as intelligent comic readers know better given the characters powera and abilities?

That's very different from the Wonderwoman scan which has no verifiable reference point and is an isolated instance. I don't even know how powerful her foe Power-Trip is, such that I would have at least some contextual frame of reference to extrapolate how fast she ought to be punching, as opposed to how fast she actually is punching. I still think you could interpret it as her punching at Flash speeds or Quicksilver speeds or Spiderman speeds or Cap speeds. You initially seemed to have characterized it as Flash speeds, although you've now lowered that down to Quicksilver speeds. And considering that it's Quicksilver speeds now, I must return again to my original assessment that it is a weak scan of Wonderwoman's superspeed since she has better feats than that.

I can show you a scan of Savage Hulk catching a tank shell in his hands and twisting his body around without losing any of the shell's momentum or speed and flinging it back in one deft motion with ease as narrated by caption. Seriously. What kind of relative superspeed would you need for that? Supersonic? Let's assume this is an isolated instance (which it's not). Is that single instance with a verifiable frame of reference, knowing that throughout Hulk's career he has surprised all manner of foes with his speed and beaten obvious speedsters, enough for you to take it at face value that it was a superspeed feat? Yes? No? Dodge question again?

Oh, that's right. Let me point out again, you just simply refuse to answer my simple "yes, no" questions. Dodge city. But since you thought your own question was so cleverly built to corner me, and I answered yours, let me turn it around: "If Thor or Silver Surfer were drawn attacking someone just like wondy is drawn then should it lso have to be stated that they r attacking at superspeed or should we as intelligent comic readers know better given the characters powera and abilities?"

Question's sort of moot though. I already know your answer. According to you, Thor isn't even capable of superspeed past Spiderman. So either you haven't read much Thor or you're applying a double-standard. And that's the point of this conversation. Because even if I were to show you microsecond speed feats from Thor, or directly quantifiable and verifiable superspeed feats that require Spiderman+ speed, folks like you don't accept them.

And yet on the other hand, an ambiguous, unverifiable, Spiderman-esq scan may be enough for you to place Wonderwoman's attack speed on Flash's level. Preposterous. What's even more revealing is that you actually admit that Thor has godly senses and reflexes and can actually block a telepathic blast after it's been fired... but he isn't faster than Spiderman? How can you possibly come up with such a conclusion?

But it's not like this is even the worst of it. Not even close. Because there's still ideas that float about that Doomsday and Lobo must have superspeed simply because they've fought Superman and landed hits on him and Superman thinks, "He's faster than he looks and took me by surprise!" Whereas Thor could punk Hermes in one deft move and it's dismissed because psshh... screw dat, I think Thor's slower than Spiderman. Darkseid says that he needs to press a button in a microsecond to avoid calamity and voila! it's proof of superspeed, but Silver Surfer says he needs to escape something in a nanosecond and psshh... wtf, Surfer was only hyperbolizing.

Wall o text = painful. Painstakingly pointing out the obvious hypocrisies in a manner that even the most intransigient should be able to understand = more painful. This should be obvious. I shouldn't have to lay it out like it's rocket science, because it's not. It's just as simple as taking double-standards in an argument.

Woah!

And I'm not talking about the content in your post (seeing as I didn't read it).

^ I don't hold it against you. 😛

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ I'm commenting about a scan that was posted for the proposition that Wonderwoman would take down Mindless Hulk in a hail of punches in the way that Power-Trip was.
Yes. For Flash, Zoom and Superman respectively. For Wonderwoman, no. Your attempt to reframe your argument is misleading. Whether or not it's on purpose doesn't even matter. Flash, Zoom and Superman have dozens of feats where they are drawn attacking someone in the fashion that Wonderwoman was drawn. And many of those feats also involve a verifiable reference point, e.g. "I punch him 1000 times in a second. He doesn't go down."

That's very different from the Wonderwoman scan which has no verifiable reference point and is an isolated instance. I don't even know how powerful her foe Power-Trip is, such that I would have at least some contextual frame of reference to extrapolate how fast she ought to be punching, as opposed to how fast she actually is punching. I still think you could interpret it as her punching at Flash speeds or Quicksilver speeds or Spiderman speeds or Cap speeds. You initially seemed to have characterized it as Flash speeds, although you've now lowered that down to Quicksilver speeds. And considering that it's Quicksilver speeds now, I must return again to my original assessment that it is a weak scan of Wonderwoman's superspeed since she has better feats than that.

I can show you a scan of Savage Hulk catching a tank shell in his hands and twisting his body around without losing any of the shell's momentum or speed and flinging it back in one deft motion with ease as narrated by caption. Seriously. What kind of relative superspeed would you need for that? Supersonic? Let's assume this is an isolated instance (which it's not). Is that single instance with a verifiable frame of reference, knowing that throughout Hulk's career he has surprised all manner of foes with his speed and beaten obvious speedsters, enough for you to take it at face value that it was a superspeed feat? Yes? No? Dodge question again?

Oh, that's right. Let me point out again, you just simply refuse to answer my simple "yes, no" questions. Dodge city. But since you thought your own question was so cleverly built to corner me, and I answered yours, let me turn it around: "If Thor or Silver Surfer were drawn attacking someone just like wondy is drawn then should it lso have to be stated that they r attacking at superspeed or should we as intelligent comic readers know better given the characters powera and abilities?"

Question's sort of moot though. I already know your answer. According to you, Thor isn't even capable of superspeed past Spiderman. So either you haven't read much Thor or you're applying a double-standard. And that's the point of this conversation. Because even if I were to show you microsecond speed feats from Thor, or directly quantifiable and verifiable superspeed feats that require Spiderman+ speed, folks like you don't accept them.

And yet on the other hand, an ambiguous, unverifiable, Spiderman-esq scan may be enough for you to place Wonderwoman's attack speed on Flash's level. Preposterous. What's even more revealing is that you actually admit that Thor has godly senses and reflexes and can actually block a telepathic blast after it's been fired... but he isn't faster than Spiderman? How can you possibly come up with such a conclusion?

But it's not like this is even the worst of it. Not even close. Because there's still ideas that float about that Doomsday and Lobo must have superspeed simply because they've fought Superman and landed hits on him and Superman thinks, "He's faster than he looks and took me by surprise!" Whereas Thor could punk Hermes in one deft move and it's dismissed because psshh... screw dat, I think Thor's slower than Spiderman. Darkseid says that he needs to press a button in a microsecond to avoid calamity and voila! it's proof of superspeed, but Silver Surfer says he needs to escape something in a nanosecond and psshh... wtf, Surfer was only hyperbolizing.

Wall o text = painful. Painstakingly pointing out the obvious hypocrisies in a manner that even the most intransigient should be able to understand = more painful. This should be obvious. I shouldn't have to lay it out like it's rocket science, because it's not. It's just as simple as taking double-standards in an argument.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ I'm commenting about a scan that was posted for the proposition that Wonderwoman would take down Mindless Hulk in a hail of punches in the way that Power-Trip was.
Yes. For Flash, Zoom and Superman respectively. For Wonderwoman, no. Your attempt to reframe your argument is misleading. Whether or not it's on purpose doesn't even matter. Flash, Zoom and Superman have dozens of feats where they are drawn attacking someone in the fashion that Wonderwoman was drawn. And many of those feats also involve a verifiable reference point, e.g. "I punch him 1000 times in a second. He doesn't go down."

That's very different from the Wonderwoman scan which has no verifiable reference point and is an isolated instance. I don't even know how powerful her foe Power-Trip is, such that I would have at least some contextual frame of reference to extrapolate how fast she ought to be punching, as opposed to how fast she actually is punching. I still think you could interpret it as her punching at Flash speeds or Quicksilver speeds or Spiderman speeds or Cap speeds. You initially seemed to have characterized it as Flash speeds, although you've now lowered that down to Quicksilver speeds. And considering that it's Quicksilver speeds now, I must return again to my original assessment that it is a weak scan of Wonderwoman's superspeed since she has better feats than that.

I can show you a scan of Savage Hulk catching a tank shell in his hands and twisting his body around without losing any of the shell's momentum or speed and flinging it back in one deft motion with ease as narrated by caption. Seriously. What kind of relative superspeed would you need for that? Supersonic? Let's assume this is an isolated instance (which it's not). Is that single instance with a verifiable frame of reference, knowing that throughout Hulk's career he has surprised all manner of foes with his speed and beaten obvious speedsters, enough for you to take it at face value that it was a superspeed feat? Yes? No? Dodge question again?

Oh, that's right. Let me point out again, you just simply refuse to answer my simple "yes, no" questions. Dodge city. But since you thought your own question was so cleverly built to corner me, and I answered yours, let me turn it around: "If Thor or Silver Surfer were drawn attacking someone just like wondy is drawn then should it lso have to be stated that they r attacking at superspeed or should we as intelligent comic readers know better given the characters powera and abilities?"

Question's sort of moot though. I already know your answer. According to you, Thor isn't even capable of superspeed past Spiderman. So either you haven't read much Thor or you're applying a double-standard. And that's the point of this conversation. Because even if I were to show you microsecond speed feats from Thor, or directly quantifiable and verifiable superspeed feats that require Spiderman+ speed, folks like you don't accept them.

And yet on the other hand, an ambiguous, unverifiable, Spiderman-esq scan may be enough for you to place Wonderwoman's attack speed on Flash's level. Preposterous. What's even more revealing is that you actually admit that Thor has godly senses and reflexes and can actually block a telepathic blast after it's been fired... but he isn't faster than Spiderman? How can you possibly come up with such a conclusion?

But it's not like this is even the worst of it. Not even close. Because there's still ideas that float about that Doomsday and Lobo must have superspeed simply because they've fought Superman and landed hits on him and Superman thinks, "He's faster than he looks and took me by surprise!" Whereas Thor could punk Hermes in one deft move and it's dismissed because psshh... screw dat, I think Thor's slower than Spiderman. Darkseid says that he needs to press a button in a microsecond to avoid calamity and voila! it's proof of superspeed, but Silver Surfer says he needs to escape something in a nanosecond and psshh... wtf, Surfer was only hyperbolizing.

Wall o text = painful. Painstakingly pointing out the obvious hypocrisies in a manner that even the most intransigient should be able to understand = more painful. This should be obvious. I shouldn't have to lay it out like it's rocket science, because it's not. It's just as simple as taking double-standards in an argument.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ I'm commenting about a scan that was posted for the proposition that Wonderwoman would take down Mindless Hulk in a hail of punches in the way that Power-Trip was.
Yes. For Flash, Zoom and Superman respectively. For Wonderwoman, no. Your attempt to reframe your argument is misleading. Whether or not it's on purpose doesn't even matter. Flash, Zoom and Superman have dozens of feats where they are drawn attacking someone in the fashion that Wonderwoman was drawn. And many of those feats also involve a verifiable reference point, e.g. "I punch him 1000 times in a second. He doesn't go down."

That's very different from the Wonderwoman scan which has no verifiable reference point and is an isolated instance. I don't even know how powerful her foe Power-Trip is, such that I would have at least some contextual frame of reference to extrapolate how fast she ought to be punching, as opposed to how fast she actually is punching. I still think you could interpret it as her punching at Flash speeds or Quicksilver speeds or Spiderman speeds or Cap speeds. You initially seemed to have characterized it as Flash speeds, although you've now lowered that down to Quicksilver speeds. And considering that it's Quicksilver speeds now, I must return again to my original assessment that it is a weak scan of Wonderwoman's superspeed since she has better feats than that.

I can show you a scan of Savage Hulk catching a tank shell in his hands and twisting his body around without losing any of the shell's momentum or speed and flinging it back in one deft motion with ease as narrated by caption. Seriously. What kind of relative superspeed would you need for that? Supersonic? Let's assume this is an isolated instance (which it's not). Is that single instance with a verifiable frame of reference, knowing that throughout Hulk's career he has surprised all manner of foes with his speed and beaten obvious speedsters, enough for you to take it at face value that it was a superspeed feat? Yes? No? Dodge question again?

Oh, that's right. Let me point out again, you just simply refuse to answer my simple "yes, no" questions. Dodge city. But since you thought your own question was so cleverly built to corner me, and I answered yours, let me turn it around: "If Thor or Silver Surfer were drawn attacking someone just like wondy is drawn then should it lso have to be stated that they r attacking at superspeed or should we as intelligent comic readers know better given the characters powera and abilities?"

Question's sort of moot though. I already know your answer. According to you, Thor isn't even capable of superspeed past Spiderman. So either you haven't read much Thor or you're applying a double-standard. And that's the point of this conversation. Because even if I were to show you microsecond speed feats from Thor, or directly quantifiable and verifiable superspeed feats that require Spiderman+ speed, folks like you don't accept them.

And yet on the other hand, an ambiguous, unverifiable, Spiderman-esq scan may be enough for you to place Wonderwoman's attack speed on Flash's level. Preposterous. What's even more revealing is that you actually admit that Thor has godly senses and reflexes and can actually block a telepathic blast after it's been fired... but he isn't faster than Spiderman? How can you possibly come up with such a conclusion?

But it's not like this is even the worst of it. Not even close. Because there's still ideas that float about that Doomsday and Lobo must have superspeed simply because they've fought Superman and landed hits on him and Superman thinks, "He's faster than he looks and took me by surprise!" Whereas Thor could punk Hermes in one deft move and it's dismissed because psshh... screw dat, I think Thor's slower than Spiderman. Darkseid says that he needs to press a button in a microsecond to avoid calamity and voila! it's proof of superspeed, but Silver Surfer says he needs to escape something in a nanosecond and psshh... wtf, Surfer was only hyperbolizing.

Wall o text = painful. Painstakingly pointing out the obvious hypocrisies in a manner that even the most intransigient should be able to understand = more painful. This should be obvious. I shouldn't have to lay it out like it's rocket science, because it's not. It's just as simple as taking double-standards in an argument.

Very well thought out post. While I certainly think WW has lightspeed combat at her optimal level from other evidence I admit you can't get that from this scan.

My personal method is to take the highest feats that have been performed enough times to be able to say they aren't way off the scale for that character, look at the context and judge it from there. You always are only going to be able to judge within a general ballpark. Batman avoids bullets. Is he capable of moving at Mach speed or is he moving before the shot is fired and making himself a difficult target? If the Hulk catches a missile, he clearly can react and move his arm at x speed, whatever the speed of the missile may be.

My only argument in this speed debate has been that we have a character, WW, who has feats of lightspeed or thereabouts, let's not quibble just yet about + or - how many times, and we have a creature, the Hulk, who reacts at mach speed at best. Overwhelming difference. I'm just saying that, once you shut off PIS and everybody does their best, Mach speeder vs. light speeder is like the Tortoise vs. the Hare except substituting a statue for the Tortoise.

In fairness, the difference between the Flash and WW may be equally overwhelming.

That wall of text sucked. And I have never given a numerical value to wondys attack in the scan. So u failed at a miserable attempt. My only point was that she can and has done it. Who cares the exact numerical value. I've already proven at her optimal she can move her arms at ftl. Anyone who is too dense to put 2 and 2 together to come up with four isn't worth anymore time.

And the nerve of some to say that one cannot extrapolate wondys max attack speed given her 65 year history of moving her arms that fast. Some haters r starting to irk me. Ur thor and surfer examples fail becuz niether have years and years of feats moving their arms in that fashion. That wall of text should be shredded and retried. Come up with something better. As long as wondy has comparible feats in arm movements I'm certainly in the right to say she attacked at super speeds. Given punching and blocking r nearly identical in her case.

Originally posted by fangirl101
That wall of text sucked. And I have never given a numerical value to wondys attack in the scan. So u failed at a miserable attempt. My only point was that she can and has done it. Who cares the exact numerical value. I've already proven at her optimal she can move her arms at ftl. Anyone who is too dense to put 2 and 2 together to come up with four isn't worth anymore time.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Thor can move his arms ftl. Yet according to you, he's slower than Spiderman. When a persons says 2+2=4... and then turns right around and says 3+3=2, I don't need a wall o text to tell you that kind of self-serving logic sucked.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Thor can move his arms ftl. Yet according to you, he's slower than Spiderman. When a persons says 2+2=4... and then turns right around and says 3+3=2, I don't need a wall o text to tell you that kind of self-serving logic sucked.

Thor can't move his arms FTL instantly.
He needs lots of time just to even move them light speed.

^ He needs 2 seconds to spin Mjolnir around for his best shot. Thor can obviously move his arms FTL instantly. Stating he can't when you've been shown a clear on-panel feat is trolling. Stop it.

Originally posted by fangirl101
ur use of thor sucks to me. Thor can react to light speed projectiles and bat them away. In order for him to have ftl speed he woukld have to be able to show continuous movement thus letting us know he's moving his arms at ftl. His reaction times are ftl as far as I can tell. But actual repetitive superspeed is not his mo. It is dianas. She has moved her arms repeatedly in the same manner as punching. So again ur wall of text sucked.

I also have a scan where he reacts in microseconds. I also have a scan that has him drop down from the sky, land and swing Mjolnir down to cause a shockwave across the city to stop a truck from hurting a person all in less than a second. I've got bunches of stuff. But you obviously won't accept them. And you weren't even paying attention. I'm not making fun of how little Thor you've actually read, I'm just proving a point: That scan is probably the weakest scan of Wonderwoman possessing superspeed you have. And for you to hold it up as a paragon example of superspeed is so illogical, that merely by asking you simple "yes, no" questions results in some of the most graceless dodging and unsightly equivocations.

You begin from a premise that Wonderwoman has all sorts of combat superspeed, use the background of her defensive superspeed and equate an ambiguous Spiderman-esq scan to being proof that she has Flash-like levels of punching superspeed. You brazenly do this and berate anybody who looks at such an isolated instance with skepticism. Then on the other hand, you start from a premise that Thor has little to no combat superspeed, use your limited and nearly absent background and assumes he only has reflexive superspeed and go on to completely dismiss even literal and unequivocal superspeed scans as hyperbole or Spiderman-lite.

How many missteps in logic do you make there? Assuming your conclusion? Check. Not reading up on the other character? Check. Double-standards? Check. Asking me to prove a negative? Check. Settling on an absurd result just to prevent yourself from conceding that you're wrong? Check.

again with the dumb thor logic. keep sticking to that. thor reacting at superspeed isnt a question. so why the hell r u bringing it up? and thor swinging the hammer has to do with strength and leverage as well. its a hammer swinging. its not like his arm is spinning the hammer. im pretty sick of ur crap attempt to demean the scan which was only shown to prove that wondy has attacked at superspeed. ur argument sucks to me becuz u r putting way too much into the minors and miaaing the point. diana uses ss all of the time in nearly every fight. so it would be idiotic to call into question her ability to strike at ss. the rest of ur post is gibberish since im not debating thors speed. i really dont care. u keep bringing him up in some dumb attempt to belittle dianas ability to launch a ss offensive. get over urself.

remeber u keep bringing up others in some dumb assed attempt to belittle my example of how dianas punches woukd be landing on the hulk. screw thor. he isnt the hulk. diana will land far more punches on hulk than he will land on her. which is the core of my statement. ur ridiculous wall of text to get away from that core statement is bothersome. thor can react and move to deflect light speed attacks. check. he can do fluid singular motions in seconds or less. check. im not debating. dont care. what he cannot do is repetitive movements thus he is not a speedster. as for this thread wondy has hulk beat on attack and reaction speed. all else fails to compute as its pretty much crap diana hate. im here blocking my arm and guess what? i can throw puncheas at the same rate. what do you know? i guess making a fist to block and making a fist to punch r not that different.

^ Thor dug trenches all over a mountain in a single panel to direct it's lava flows. Thor pounded Mjolnir into a great Asgardian column in a single panel. He has his "repetitive movement" feats. You just either forgot, didn't read it or ignore it altogether. I'd say I was one of the first ones to argue pro-Wonderwoman against Superman. No hate for her. Ad hominem.

Originally posted by fangirl101
again with the dumb thor logic. keep sticking to that. thor reacting at superspeed isnt a question. so why the hell r u bringing it up? and thor swinging the hammer has to do with strength and leverage as well. its a hammer swinging. its not like his arm is spinning the hammer. im pretty sick of ur crap attempt to demean the scan which was only shown to prove that wondy has attacked at superspeed. ur argument sucks to me becuz u r putting way too much into the minors and miaaing the point. diana uses ss all of the time in nearly every fight. so it would be idiotic to call into question her ability to strike at ss. the rest of ur post is gibberish since im not debating thors speed. i really dont care. u keep bringing him up in some dumb attempt to belittle dianas ability to launch a ss offensive. get over urself.

But also at the same time, I'm exposing your double-standard when it comes to a character like Darkseid. Darkseid has absolutely no established history of swinging his fists around in blurs or of moving his arms ftl to defend. But you cobble up Darkseid whizzing around with Orion in an arena being watched by people (which presupposes they're not blurs and not superfast), Darkseid catching a Clark Kent-ed Superman by surprise and a microsecond-thought-bubble as Darkseid having superspeed... You want to sincerely argue that Wonderwoman's superspeed is well-established? Who said it wasn't? But to characterize Thor's as not established enough when you simply haven't read much Thor? And then turn around and exhort Darkseid's superspeed which is far far far far less established? Who needs to get over themselves now?

epic fail. ds has superspeed becuz hes shown carching true speedsters totally off kilt. i also studied the orion series. every time superspeed was mentioned in text it was accompanied by the same style of speed lines. i guess u may need to try harder. and ds still isnt a true speedster. ive never once stated that ds can launch a multiple offensive with his fist. get over urself boo.

also **** thor. he isnt in this thread and has not a thing to do with it. ur sad attempt to derail the thread is bothersome to say the least.