Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
I'm pretty sure he means that the PT era is the weakest era of force users and that Palpatine is the strongest force user in that era.
No. I get that. What I don't get is why you'd want the ultimate villain (Palpatine) to be weaker than someone of relative insignificance (Ragnos).
He isn't the "ultimate villain" because he's the most powerful, but because of what he's done and how he's done it. When you think about it, not one of his own significant victories was the direct result of a personal battle; he's planned everything, and personally I find the intellect to be far more intriguing than raw power. I would've been perfectly happy if he hadn't fought once in the entire saga.
Originally posted by Publius II
He isn't the "ultimate villain" because he's the most powerful, but because of what he's done and how he's done it. When you think about it, not one of his own significant victories was the direct result of a personal battle; he's planned everything, and personally I find the intellect to be far more intriguing than raw power. I would've been perfectly happy if he hadn't fought once in the entire saga.
Yeah but it seems more appropriate for him to be the most powerful. I mean can you imagine another sith being able to kick his ass? It would take the scaryness out of him. His mastery of the force defines him just as much as his manipulation and planning. Throughout the entire saga we hear lines that greatly hint how powerful he was:
Anakin: " The chancellor is very powerful. You are going to need my help if you are going to arrest him".
Yoda: "If so powerful you are, why leave"?
Yoda: "Do not underestimate the powers of the emperor."
Darth Vader: "Together you and i can rule the galaxy as father and son."
(Here Vader is implying that, though a powerful warrior, he will need Lukes help to overthrow Palpatine, because alone he stands no chance.)
Darth Vader: "The emperor will show you the true nature of the force."
Also we see how Vader, the most feared being in the galaxy, gets reduced to a little child in the presence of Palpatine.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah but it seems more appropriate for him to be the most powerful. I mean can you imagine another sith being able to kick his ass? It would take the scaryness out of him. His mastery of the force defines him just as much as his manipulation and planning. Throughout the entire saga we hear lines that greatly hint how powerful he was:Anakin: " The chancellor is very powerful. You are going to need my help if you are going to arrest him".
Yoda: "If so powerful you are, why leave"?
Yoda: "Do not underestimate the powers of the emperor."
Darth Vader: "Together you and i can rule the galaxy as father and son."
(Here Vader is implying that, though a powerful warrior, he will need Lukes help to overthrow Palpatine, because alone he stands no chance.)
Me
[H]e's planned [for] everything [...] I would've been perfectly happy if he hadn't fought once in the entire saga.
Darth Vader: "The emperor will show you the true nature of the force."He can understand the Force without necessarily being the most overwhelmingly powerful user of it.
Also we see how Vader, the most feared being in the galaxy, gets reduced to a little child in the presence of Palpatine.Mindgames could do that. And as I note above, he could have a plan for everything. Like Batman, but precognitive.
I wasn't at all clear earlier, and I apologize for that.
I don't really agree that Ragnos needs to have been the most powerful ever, or that each successive generation of Jedi or Sith is weaker than its predecessor, but I appreciate the reverence and throwbacks to the rare titan of old. Even Palpatine himself notes in RoDV that "the most powerful of the ancients" were capable of what Plagueis was, what Palpatine sought to learn. Little moments like that flesh him out.
I wouldn't want the Emperor to be some sap, but he doesn't need to be "the most powerful" to be "the ultimate villain." He can easily be the most threatening being in the galaxy without being able to curbstomp all competition with a wave of his hand. Personally, his confrontation with Starkiller - when the latter was hurling him around like a doll, with the Emperor supposedly at his mercy - was a far more powerful scene than his all-out battle with Yoda. In hindsight, it actually reminds me of the interrogation scene from The Dark Knight; Batman has the muscle, but the Joker indisputably has the power. We know who's really controlling it all.
His manipulation of Luke is another favorite. I guess, to me, the greatest depictions of the character are almost universally the subtle, "behind the scenes" ones. Sithisis is absolutely incredible, Yoda's reaction to sensing Sidious' presence for the first time in LoE - it turned the stream of the Force "arctic" - is absolutely perfect, and Count Dooku's musings that Sidious was as a "black hole" in the Force, an "event horizon"; these are what make the character tick for me.
And I would make lightning pretty much exclusive to him. The fact that a cranky teenage Jedi can decimate a room with it on instinct takes the thrill and shock out of Luke's torture scene. Palpatine's the only one who makes it legitimately badass.
Then what would be the explanation of why some can touch the force, and others can't?It doesn't really matter to me; TPM took all the mystery out of it, and that sucked. I'd probably have it just be at random. "The Force is strong" in some, but not in others.
Delete all Post RotJ EU minus the Jedi Academy trilogy, the Jedi Knight series (Kyle Katarn games), and most of Zahn's work, as Mara Jade and Palleon are the two greatest EU creations of all time. However edit Thrawn so that he's in his place, an extremely capable military tactician, nothing more nothing less. No political skill that "rivals Palpatines".
... And I guess you can keep the Tales series and the Han Solo and Lando Calrissian adventures series.
There's a "Tails" series? Fo' real?
Also, Mace Windu doesn't melt Palpatine's face. The PT 'ends' with Palpatine looking an old guy, and he simply degenerates very, very quickly. And the eyes are always yellow, because he's that far in.
Edit: He also wears robes, and only robes. He never gets flipped over a desk and hangs upside down on his chair ignominiously so we can see his lame-ass pants. He never calls Yoda his "little green friend," because that conjures up all sorts of undesirably mental images, he doesn't laugh like an idiot at everything, and he doesn't make stupid facial expressions.
Basically, most of RotS Palpatine never happened.
I've spent the past thirty minutes trying to put my words into something cogent. I'm getting impatient, though, so I'll just let them fly.
Palpatine really is the ultimate villain of the saga. There can be no question; without him, you don't have a story. People think I'm being rather assertive when it comes to him, but it's true. He's more important than Ragnos, than Revan, than Bane. There are only two characters that I can think of who rival him in terms of importance and those would be Anakin and Luke Skywalker. No one else is really essential to the story at all and can be replaced with a different character or a different sort of character entirely without incident.
I'll agree with Faunus on a major point. Palpatine's strongest moments have been those where he hasn't obliterated a fleet of ships or hurled automobile-sized Senate pods or participated in rituals that caused changes in the weather and so on. His strongest moments, indeed, have largely been speaking scenes and the reactions of him through other characters.
But here's where I disagree with Tangible. The purpose of Palpatine is to represent the ultimate evil. Villainy at its finest. He conquered the galaxy and destroyed the Jedi in ways that no other collection of Sith have ever done. Why? Logic dictates that he was vastly superior in some fashion. Rather than assert that he is more powerful than all of them or smarter than all of them (which limits the previous Sith), it should be a collection of characteristics; he was the perfect combination of dark side traits. Not necessarily better than every one in all categories, but the only one amongst them to have the proper amount of traits all around that enabled him to succeed where the rest did not.
Palpatine is supposed to represent power in itself. He doesn't need to demonstrate vast power. He doesn't have to crush Vader for the audience to be aware that he's more powerful; the reaction of powerful men like Vader and Dooku is enough to make it quite clear:
He could if he wanted to.
But the idea that he is weaker and relies solely on mindgames? It's not possible.
Originally posted by Final Blaxican
Delete all Post RotJ EU minus the Jedi Academy trilogy, the Jedi Knight series (Kyle Katarn games), and most of Zahn's work, as Mara Jade and Palleon are the two greatest EU creations of all time. However edit Thrawn so that he's in his place, an extremely capable military tactician, nothing more nothing less. No political skill that "rivals Palpatines".... And I guess you can keep the Tales series and the Han Solo and Lando Calrissian adventures series.
Honestly, I'd probably clean the entire slate and start from scratch, taking previously existing ideas if they presented themselves fine. And most of Zahn's work doesn't impress me. Thrawn, Pellaeon, and Mara? Absolutely. But I've seen other authors write the latter two even better than him.
My two cents (I'll try to keep it short). Most of my gripe is with the post ROTJ era. I'd rewrite or scrap everything post Courtship of Princess Leia, I felt stories in this era began to loose the sense of discovery and adventure of the OT, after this novel.
That means no Mara and Luke hooking up, although Mara would be kept. Less emphasis on the raw power of Luke and co.
I'd rewrite the X wing books like journals with no specific main cast but I'd do it in 3rd person. Tragedy would be easier to write here, not enough tragedy in SW. I'd keep the Katarn Jaden Korr stuff though, those were solid adventure tales.
Boba Fett dies in the Sarlacc Pit and the Mandos wouldn't exist after the CW. No Emperor resurrection - of course - either.
I'd make a Jedi Dooku novel in place of a Bane novel. I read this bit of story about Dooku's Jedi holocron entry, and he has far more depth to him than Bane (who's getting needless airtime with those stories).
Less Jedi vs Sith wars. Also less Sith like Malak and more Sith like Sion or Traya. I'd rewrite the Ulic era Kotor comics, (no Sith magic and more emphasis on the political figures of the time).
Originally posted by GideonIt's not impossible either. In fact, being the weakest of all his predecessors and still managing to do what they couldn't--not through martial might but rather through his ability to manipulate and deceive... that makes him great in my books. The greatest, really. Doesn't mean he HAS to have the most power. My preference. I like the mystery of the ancients, like Ragnos. I like the idea that ever since the Sith emerged in the Great Hyperspace War that the Force has been... withdrawing from everybody. Palpatine's death ends the Sith and opens up a well of power for the NJO. I like that idea.
I've spent the past thirty minutes trying to put my words into something cogent. I'm getting impatient, though, so I'll just let them fly.Palpatine really is the ultimate villain of the saga. There can be no question; without him, you don't have a story. People think I'm being rather assertive when it comes to him, but it's true. He's more important than Ragnos, than Revan, than Bane. There are only two characters that I can think of who rival him in terms of importance and those would be Anakin and Luke Skywalker. No one else is really essential to the story at all and can be replaced with a different character or a different sort of character entirely without incident.
I'll agree with Faunus on a major point. Palpatine's strongest moments have been those where he hasn't obliterated a fleet of ships or hurled automobile-sized Senate pods or participated in rituals that caused changes in the weather and so on. His strongest moments, indeed, have largely been speaking scenes and the reactions of him through other characters.
But here's where I disagree with Tangible. The purpose of Palpatine is to represent the ultimate evil. Villainy at its finest. He conquered the galaxy and destroyed the Jedi in ways that no other collection of Sith have ever done. Why? Logic dictates that he was vastly superior in some fashion. Rather than assert that he is more powerful than all of them or smarter than all of them (which limits the previous Sith), it should be a collection of characteristics; he was the perfect combination of dark side traits. Not necessarily better than every one in all categories, but the only one amongst them to have the proper amount of traits all around that enabled him to succeed where the rest did not.
Palpatine is supposed to represent power in itself. He doesn't need to demonstrate vast power. He doesn't have to crush Vader for the audience to be aware that he's more powerful; the reaction of powerful men like Vader and Dooku is enough to make it quite clear:
He could if he wanted to.
But the idea that he is weaker and relies solely on mindgames? It's not possible.
Oh and Allankles' ideas---*thumbs up*
Originally posted by GideonDefinitely my fault for failing to clarify on this.
But the idea that he is weaker and relies solely on mindgames? It's not possible.
The way I see the character - or rather, want the character to be seen - is as someone who is always in complete control of everyone and everything; this is one area where I feel that some of established canon has painted a reasonably agreeable picture. This to me is his single greatest strength, the one quality that by its own merit separates him from essentially every other popular villain in modern culture.
Essentially, his absolute mastery of psychology on both a personal and galactic scale is easily his most defining trait. The very existence of a scene in which he gets locked into combat with what should be an entity he has no chance against in an actual fight takes away from that. His battles should be won through the power of the mind and his unmatched devotion to the dark side, not disappointing feats of telekinesis and uninspired lightsaber duels.
This brings me back to TDK's Joker. His greatest assets are his mind and his unflinching devotion to what he believes to be his sole reason for existing; introducing chaos and upsetting established order. This is never questioned. But we still know that for all his cunning and derision for the mockery of ethics that is law, he is still dangerous, and not just in a behind-the-scenes respect. We see the Batman thrash him in a beating that would leave most senseless or dead, and the Joker simply laughs at him. This lends even more power to a two-minute sequence in the final act of the movie in which the Joker, with the brief assistance of a couple of dogs, viciously attacks and indeed gains the upper hand on the vastly stronger and better trained Dark Knight. To me, those scenes grouped together create one of the most powerful depictions of an archrivalry in all of fiction. That's how I would love to see Sidious. I want to be fully aware of the fact that, "realistically," he should face certain death in any physical battle with Yoda, but he still manages not only to survive, but to win on a plane that no competition of mere muscle could ever reach.
All that said, I wouldn't want Palpatine to be a weakling. As I've already pointed out, he's the only one in the mythos to make lightning actually seem badass; he should be the only one who can use it, and it would make him that much more dangerous. I'd also want to see him use the Force in more, well, insidious ways. One of my favorite scenes in RotS is the one in which Anakin is waiting in the Council chambers, fighting within himself to decide to what to do, when we hear Palpatine's voice - subtle, soft, and yet immensely powerful - speak to him from across the city, playing on his fears. Again, of course, Sithisis was tremendously well executed, both structurally and artistically, and one of its greatest strengths was that it depicted Sidious using his power to affect peoples' minds directly, as with the RotS scene; Anakin is driven into a battle rage, even Yoda is given pause by what appears to be the sheer surge in darkness, and we see crowds of young Jedi screaming and fleeing from some spectre in the Temple, and the best part is that it's happening across the galaxy. He owns them, regardless of where they are, and I'd live to see that reflected in the powers he employs on a personal level.
Lightning + Telepathy [playing on their fear] = Win.
And I don't ever want to see him in a lightsaber duel. Ever.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It's not impossible either.
Well...
In fact, being the weakest of all his predecessors and still managing to do what they couldn't--not through martial might but rather through his ability to manipulate and deceive... that makes him great in my books.
This is where you lose me.
Based on the movies and EU supplements, Palpatine relied on both the Force and political manipulation to secure power. The idea that he wasn't heavily relying on the Force to facilitate his conquest is simply a falsehood; he was using the Force to perform three vital tasks: a.) look into the future to predict the outcome of various events, b.) to utilize Quey'tek to shield him from the Jedi, c.) to blunt Jedi sensitivity on a galactic scale to prevent them from noticing the various shifts in power.
Palpatine could not have achieved what he did if not for a mastery of the Force that his predecessors simply did not have. I can understand if, perhaps, you mean that Palpatine isn't as skilled as a combatant or the more martial uses of the Force, but when it comes to utilizing the Force as a means of subtlelty, deception, and prolonging the weaknesses of his adversaries, no Sith was (nor should be, logically) Palpatine's equal.
Were it your way, the Ancient Sith would be powerful but inept and Palpatine shrewd yet frail, which undermines them both and makes it impossible for the Sith to achieve success at all.
The greatest, really.
He was. And rightfully so. But not simply because of intellect.
Doesn't mean he HAS to have the most power.
Perhaps not in terms of combat, but he clearly needs to possess a mastery of the Force in areas that the Ancients did not.
My preference.
Which I respect. But as it is, it's simply impossible. With a little tweaking, it can be arranged to fit the story.
I like the mystery of the ancients, like Ragnos.
Superior power relative to Palpatine does not increase their mystery nor does inferior power relative to Palpatine detract from it.
I like the idea that ever since the Sith emerged in the Great Hyperspace War that the Force has been... withdrawing from everybody. Palpatine's death ends the Sith and opens up a well of power for the NJO. I like that idea.
Again, you lose me. Why would Palpatine's death and the destruction of the Sith open up a well of power if he is so weak?
Originally posted by Allankles
My two cents (I'll try to keep it short).
You should go in-depth. This has been a fantastic discussion.
Most of my gripe is with the post ROTJ era. I'd rewrite or scrap everything post Courtship of Princess Leia, I felt stories in this era began to loose the sense of discovery and adventure of the OT, after this novel.
The post-RotJ era has a couple of gems amongst a field of stones. The most insidious problem is the latent minimalism perpetuated by the majority of the authors: Zahn, Stackpole, Traviss, et cetera. Star Wars takes place across an entire galaxy; the idea that the Empire could maintain control with only 25,000 Star Destroyers is absurd. The idea that 200 out of date dreadnaughts were enough to tip the scales in Grand Admiral Thrawn's favor is even more stupid. The Empire should field millions upon millions of ships and billions upon billions of soldiers. The Rebel Alliance, too, would have to be larger and better equipped if they had a prayer of taking on the Empire even with guerilla tactics.
Edit: Faunus, I can sympathize and understand a great deal of what you said, but the whole "faces death versus Yoda" still makes no sense. Why? Because he's smart, so he must be physically vulnerable? Then the reverse would have to apply to wise old Yoda, making him rather stupid. The villain isn't supposed to be the underdog. He's supposed to be the guy who is going to win until the very last second.
Originally posted by GideonMmm, I think you forgot your own thread. If I had it my way... Palpatine wouldn't be using the Force to shield his identity and presence, the Jedi would just suck. The Ancients would be a barely touched upon subject, the GHW mentioned and discussed somewhat, but as for combat details of the individuals... canon would call them the best, but we just don't know how. It would prevent them from our Vs. but I'm fine with that.
Well...
And my way would fit the prophecy a tad more than what we have. Destruction of the Sith would "balance" the Force. Balance in Star Wars being a return to the norm--ultra powerful Light sided Jedi. The ongoing existence of the Sith in the galaxy had been... sucking the Force away from the contact of individuals, hindering their abilities and magnitude to which they're performed. Their death opens the Force up again, per se. I.e. The longer the Sith exist in (and eventually RULE) the galaxy, the less and less powerful its practitioners become, light or dark.