Silver Surfer,Hal Jordan,Orion vs. Thor,Firestorm,Superman

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
It wasn't warrior madness. He just lost it because of Odin and all the multiple Thor clones etc. He was loony but not amped in power.

He wasn't amped as it wasn't actual Warrior Madness. True he would be fighting rougher etc. than he normally would but it never said that his power was amped and it shouldn't be sad as it wasn't warrior madness.

Of course his mind was different.

When did he say that?

I must have missed it and he is contradicting himself.

The first time they fought during that arc, in the end he said he wasn't holding back and Thor still defeated him.

The second time they fight, he and Adam Warlock were both defeated.

Like he said, "we" cannot risk holding back this time. He was referring to the last page, when they meet Thor but did no attack.

They were talking about capturing him etc.

He was referring their encounter on the last page.

As you saw, when he first fought Thor during Blood and Thunder, he clearly said, he isn't holding back.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
He wasn't amped during that arc. He was mental, and I do believe Beta Ray Bill said that, but people in berserk rages draw strength as well. Thor could accomplish what he did in Blood and Thunder, he just isn't one to unleash that type of power and not hold back on his own friends.

How was he amped?

He did not receive any upgrades. He simply went crazy.

Was he tapping into his potential etc.?

That could be said. Either way, it never showed him being amped. It wasn't warrior madness, it was just him going screw loose.

It being stated that he was drawing strength from the madness is a clear indication that he was amped beyond regular levels as far as im concerned. People in simple berserker rages dont just become much more powerful than normal and achieve things theyd NEVER be able to do regularly.

The only thing that could account for such a spike in thors power other than an amp by the madness is if he was tapping into some unseen potential which has never been seen again. However that would mean that he was only able to tap into it during that period of madness and wouldnt be able to replicate it under normal conditions

During that fight Silver Surfer himself said that Thor was holding back and that Thor knew from the beginning that he was being deceived, and he was holding back his strength.That barrier that was able to keep Mjolnir from Thor was shattered with one blow by Thor. Thor downed him but it isn't like he did anything serious or permanent. Thor seemed unharmed after he got back up.

I think u meant to say surfer downed him.And yes it wasnt anything serious or permanent hence im not using that fight is an indicator of anything just sayin that in that fight in which some would want to use to say thor definitely>>>surfer, surer actually was winning(on points at least).

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
- That was retconned
- Surfer "won" the fight
- Loki added his own power to the Surfer's that fight

-Meh, that so called "recton" is iffy imo. Still he was written drastically weaker in that era.

-I know about all the circumstances surrounding of the fight and im not trying to use it as proof of anything. Those circumstances are the reasons that it shouldnt be used as proof of anything for either side.

Originally posted by Naija boy
It being stated that he was drawing strength from the madness is a clear indication that he was amped beyond regular levels as far as im concerned. People in simple berserker rages dont just become much more powerful than normal and achieve things theyd NEVER be able to do regularly.

The only thing that could account for such a spike in thors power other than an amp by the madness is if he was tapping into some unseen potential which has never been seen again. However that would mean that he was only able to tap into it during that period of madness and wouldnt be able to replicate it under normal conditions

That wasn't warrior madness and there was no clear indicitation of an amp.

Beta Ray Bill said he was drawing strength from the madness. He said that the Valkyrie was driving him to paranoia, pushing him etc.

That does not mean he was being amped up in power.

He had no amping. The Valkyrie was part of Thor and was created by his mind. To him he was a companion and a women he loved. She was pushing him, and driving him to paranoia.

Thor has done amazing things when pushed for the ones he loves. When Kurse was beating on him and then put Sif in danger, Thor actually turned the tide in moments and downed Kurse himself in a few blows.

It's a great example of what happened in the arc. Thor holds back a great deal, but when pushed shows incredible strength.

Thor has stated he can call on the madness in a fight, did he not?

The true madness I believe.

Originally posted by Naija boy
I think u meant to say surfer downed him.And yes it wasnt anything serious or permanent hence im not using that fight is an indicator of anything just sayin that in that fight in which some would want to use to say thor definitely>>>surfer, surer actually was winning(on points at least).

Yes, I meant to say Silver Surfer downed Thor. He downed him after multiple blows attacks directly at Thor and even then all he could do is down him.

It didn't seem to have any serious effect etc. on Thor.

Silver Surfer wasn't winning. He simply got the upper hand and didn't really do anything after multiple attacks, while Thor was holding back a significant portion of his strength and power.

Here reference to Warrior Madness

The only reason Odin did not call thor's state warrior madness it's because Odin manipulated thor's spirit hence he says it's not true warrior madness it has the same affect. Also Odin later refers to this as Madness few time

-He also believe that this will spread like warrior madness

- Thor's official bio mention his state has warrior madness

- Marvel.com refers to it as warrior madness

-beating BRB is evidence enough since they are almost in far with each other

This was not a "normal" Thor no matter how people want to spin it

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
That wasn't warrior madness and there was no clear indicitation of an amp.

Beta Ray Bill said he was drawing strength from the madness. He said that the Valkyrie was driving him to paranoia, pushing him etc.

That does not mean he was being amped up in power.

He had no amping. The Valkyrie was part of Thor and was created by his mind. To him he was a companion and a women he loved. She was pushing him, and driving him to paranoia.

It wasnt "true warrior madness" but the effect was the same. This was evident in thors enhanced power level there. Beta ray bill saying that thor was drawing strength from the madness is a really unequivocal statement imo. Him drawing strength from it indicates that he the madness is making him stronger in other words giving him extra strength. Such strength isnt something thor has access to regularly.

Valkryie was pushing him to paranoia but that does not account for the vast strength increase.

Thor has done amazing things when pushed for the ones he loves. When Kurse was beating on him and then put Sif in danger, Thor actually turned the tide in moments and downed Kurse himself in a few blows.

It's a great example of what happened in the arc. Thor holds back a great deal, but when pushed shows incredible strength.

Thor has stated he can call on the madness in a fight, did he not?

The true madness I believe.

When did thor knockout kurse in a few blows? It took the combined power of all the magic in both thor and BRBs hammers to ko kurse, i cant imagine thor doing it in a few blows.

Yes in the onslaught saga he did mention something of that sort but i cant recall him ever doing it

Yes, I meant to say Silver Surfer downed Thor. He downed him after multiple blows attacks directly at Thor and even then all he could do is down him.

It didn't seem to have any serious effect etc. on Thor.

Silver Surfer wasn't winning. He simply got the upper hand and didn't really do anything after multiple attacks, while Thor was holding back a significant portion of his strength and power.

When surfer got thor down, he didnt press the advantage he just stood thor and started talking to himself for the next two pages and eventually left when he realised that he had been deceived. However if u take that fight in itself as a judge of anything(which im against in itself), Surfer had the upper hand and so was winning. thor did hold back however and surfer at that point was at a drasticaly lower level than he would be written at over the years and thats why that fight in itself doesnt prove anything.

Originally posted by Naija boy
It wasnt "true warrior madness" but the effect was the same. This was evident in thors enhanced power level there. Beta ray bill saying that thor was drawing strength from the madness is a really unequivocal statement imo. Him drawing strength from it indicates that he the madness is making him stronger in other words giving him extra strength. Such strength isnt something thor has access to regularly.

Beta Ray Bill said that he draws strength from the madness, that the so called love of his pushes him to greater levels and drives him to paranoia. There is no evidence that clearly states, his stats including his strength, power, durability etc. were all greatly augmented during this arc.

It wouldn’t even make sense for him to get stronger. Throughout the entire arc, Thor’s psyche was disrupted and the cause for this was Odin and it took the shape of the Valkyrie. It was all Thor’s doing. There wasn’t some ancient curse or malady involved. It was all Thor’s doing mentally. It was his creation. There were no outside causes (Odin excluded) or involvement. There is no place he could gain the amp from. It wasn’t the Warrior Madness that is an ancient, incurable Asgardian curse. It was Thor’s mind going mad. There was no outside forces that were in play.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Valkryie was pushing him to paranoia but that does not account for the vast strength increase.

It was never stated that Thor had a vast strength increase. This is baseless as he would have no where to even draw strength from. He didn’t have the Power Gem yet.

It wasn’t Warrior Madness. It was a psychic disruption that caused Thor to go crazy. That was it. It was never clearly stated that Thor’s power was increased etc.

Another interesting fact, is that Thor “can” call on the “true” Warrior Madness in battle, can he not?

Originally posted by Naija boy
When did thor knockout kurse in a few blows? It took the combined power of all the magic in both thor and BRBs hammers to ko kurse, i cant imagine thor doing it in a few blows.

Yes in the onslaught saga he did mention something of that sort but i cant recall him ever doing it.

He didn’t knock him out permanently from what I recall, but he did down him in a few blows, and it was a few moments before he was back up I believe. Still rather impressive in my opinion as this is Kurse, and he was un phased by Thor’s attacks in the past. Shows how much Thor really is capable of when pushed.

Originally posted by Naija boy
When surfer got thor down, he didnt press the advantage he just stood thor and started talking to himself for the next two pages and eventually left when he realised that he had been deceived. However if u take that fight in itself as a judge of anything(which im against in itself), Surfer had the upper hand and so was winning. thor did hold back however and surfer at that point was at a drasticaly lower level than he would be written at over the years and thats why that fight in itself doesnt prove anything.

Thor was down and he was separated by Mjolnir but that is because he only allowed himself to be separated etc. from what I remember. He broke the barrier in one single blow, and got right back up unharmed. If he pressed the advantage, it would have forced Thor to stop fooling around and all he would have got was an indication of how much more powerful Mjolnir’s magic is than his Cosmic Force. It wasn’t winning if the opponent allowed it to happen to an extent.

Originally posted by kgkg

Here reference to Warrior Madness

Did you read the entire arc, or only the Thor issues?

That reference makes no difference because Beta Ray Bill, and Sif “thought” it was Warrior Madness till the end of the arc. That is why they tried to stop the Infinity Watch from reaching Odin. It wasn’t Warrior Madness. It was a psychic imbalance/disruption in Thor’s mind that was caused by Odin. This psychic imbalance I believe took on the shape of Valkyrie and he believed that she was his true love and she feed and drove his paranoia and insanity. The Asgardians just assumed it was Warrior Madness because Thor became a lunatic but it wasn’t.

Originally posted by kgkg

The only reason Odin did not call thor's state warrior madness it's because Odin manipulated thor's spirit hence he says it's not true warrior madness it has the same affect. Also Odin later refers to this as Madness few time

Yes Odin refers to it as the Warrior Madness because he like the rest of the Asgardian’s assumed that it was the Warrior Madness, which it is not. It was Thor just going screw loose. It had nothing to do with Warrior Madness. You have no evidence that it had the same effect as Warriro Madness. It was a simple imbalance caused by Thor’s mind etc. It isn’t some ancient, incurable disease that takes over Asgardians.

Originally posted by kgkg
-He also believe that this will spread like warrior madness

Odin thought it was Warrior Madness. Just because it “could” spread, it doesn’t make it Warrior Madness. Just because chicken pox is contagious like a cold, it doesn’t mean both have the same effect on a person.

Originally posted by kgkg
- Thor's official bio mention his state has warrior madness

Then you need to check that bio again as on panel events clearly show that it “wasn’t” Warrior Madness. According to bios, Black Bolt is a 60 toner while amping, so they are not always correct. Just saying.

Originally posted by kgkg
- Marvel.com refers to it as warrior madness

Where does it state this in Thor’s “marvel.com” bio?

Originally posted by kgkg
- -beating BRB is evidence enough since they are almost in far with each other

Thor > Beta Ray Bill

Originally posted by kgkg
- This was not a "normal" Thor no matter how people want to spin it

Obviously it wasn’t a regular Thor. Physically yes as there is no evidence to suggest he was being greatly amped etc. but mentally, he was obviously different than a normal Thor.

If you don’t want to believe it, then it’s up to you. Call it a retcon if it makes you feel better, but it wasn’t Warrior Madness.

Uhm, if you look at SS listed powers and abilities he technically should be able to beat all of them by himself.
Just read all his powers listed on marvel universe.
He can transmute things, so he could turn the yellow sun red. Down goes Superman. Being as he can move at unlimited speed (whatever that means) he could just fly into Firestorm going at, oh we'll say 99% the speed of light, and decapitate him with one hit. Then just burn up his body with cosmic blasts. Thor would be a bit harder but i dunno why. With the powers that surfer is supposed to have he shouldn't even be able to be hit by Thor, but always seems to get knocked around. Either way SS+Hal Jordan + Orion could do thor in.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Beta Ray Bill said that he draws strength from the madness, that the so called love of his pushes him to greater levels and drives him to paranoia. There is no evidence that clearly states, his stats including his strength, power, durability etc. were all greatly augmented during this arc.

No u are combining to different though processes and leaving out context. When Beta ray bill said, he draws strength from the madness, it was in response to surfers statement that the battle was already over and he did not even need surfers help. BRB thenn said, "Nay this batle is anything but over, he draws strength from the madness". End of thought process. Here he was clearly talking about thors quick recovery being as a result of the madness.

Surfer then asked him who thor was speaking to. IT was then that BRB said "A figment...........This valkryie drives thor to paranoia,he lashes out at any who might help him" So no, when BRB said he draws strength from the madness he wasnt referrring to his the paranoia that his love for valkryie was causing but rather the quickness of thors recovery

It wouldn’t even make sense for him to get stronger. Throughout the entire arc, Thor’s psyche was disrupted and the cause for this was Odin and it took the shape of the Valkyrie. It was all Thor’s doing. There wasn’t some ancient curse or malady involved. It was all Thor’s doing mentally. It was his creation. There were no outside causes (Odin excluded) or involvement. There is no place he could gain the amp from. It wasn’t the Warrior Madness that is an ancient, incurable Asgardian curse. It was Thor’s mind going mad. There was no outside forces that were in play.

And why wouldnt it make sense? This was clearly not simply a case of thor going mad or berserk. As Odin even said, the madness would even spread to the other Asgardians like true warrior madness. How would thor simply going berserk spread to other asgardians if that was truly the totality of the problem? It wouldnt and so there was obviously more to it. Further Odin didnt say it wasnt "Warrior madness" but rather, that it wasnt true warrior madness. By this he indicates the similarities between the diseases with the difference being the cause. Odin induced the warrior madness upon thor and that was the reason it wasnt true warrior madness. This is further corroborated by the fact that thors malady would spread just like true warrior madness. Once again, if thor simply went mad as u claim, how would the madness then spread to other asgardians in the same way as true warrior madness? Further Odin was so sure it would indeed spread that he was willing to kill his own son just to protect other asgardians. Obviously it wasnt regular madness.

It was never stated that Thor had a vast strength increase. This is baseless as he would have no where to even draw strength from. He didn’t have the Power Gem yet. It wasn’t Warrior Madness. It was a psychic disruption that caused Thor to go crazy. That was it. It was never clearly stated that Thor’s power was increased etc. Another interesting fact, is that Thor “can” call on the “true” Warrior Madness in battle, can he not?

No its not baseless. Its based on thor performing at above regular levels in that arc. It was described as not being"true warrior madness" (as Odin induced it) but was shown as having the same effect. This was confirmed by Odin who was sure it would spread to other asgardians like true warrior madness. Thor simply going bonkers wouldnt spread to other asgardians. so there was obviously more to it than that. Also yes thor can call on the true warrior madness in battle but that is not relevant here at all ( I cant remeber thor ever actually doing it even).

He didn’t knock him out permanently from what I recall, but he did down him in a few blows, and it was a few moments before he was back up I believe. Still rather impressive in my opinion as this is Kurse, and he was un phased by Thor’s attacks in the past. Shows how much Thor really is capable of when pushed.

Actually it doest really show anything.Knocking Kurse down is hardly as impressive or even comparable to what thor accomplished in the Blood and thunder arc. In thor 363 which iirc is thors first fight with Kurse (in Kurse form) he knocked him down with only one hammer shot. Knocking a guy down and knocking him out are two entirely different things. Also which fight between thor and kurse are u talking about even?

Thor was down and he was separated by Mjolnir but that is because he only allowed himself to be separated etc. from what I remember. He broke the barrier in one single blow, and got right back up unharmed. If he pressed the advantage, it would have forced Thor to stop fooling around and all he would have got was an indication of how much more powerful Mjolnir’s magic is than his Cosmic Force. It wasn’t winning if the opponent allowed it to happen to an extent.

Thor didnt allow himself get separated from mjolnir at all. Surfer was blasting him and blasting him until he knocked thor down. While he was on the floor surfer then trapped mjolnir in an energy field. After which he monologued for about two pages. Thor eventually gets up goes and breaks the barrier. thor didnt allow anything to happen. He was holding back undoubtedly hence the irrelevance of the fight, but still in that scenario surfer was clearly winning .

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

Yes Odin refers to it as the Warrior Madness because he like the rest of the Asgardian’s assumed that it was the Warrior Madness, which it is not. It was Thor just going screw loose. It had nothing to do with Warrior Madness. You have no evidence that it had the same effect as Warriro Madness. It was a simple imbalance caused by Thor’s mind etc. It isn’t some ancient, incurable disease that takes over Asgardians.

Actually the fact that it would spread to other asgadians indicates that while it was not caused was thru the normal process it was infact a disease that would take over asgardians

Odin thought it was Warrior Madness. Just because it “could” spread, it doesn’t make it Warrior Madness. Just because chicken pox is contagious like a cold, it doesn’t mean both have the same effect on a person.

Completely faulty analogy. Firstly the scan is taken from the point where Odin knew it wasnt warrior madness. Odin also didnt say it "could" spread but rather that it would spread. Secondly in ur analogy u equate two known contagious diseases, cold and chicken pox. However that analogy though faulty in itself isnt even in line with ur arguement as ur claim above is that it didnt have the characteristics of a contagious disease but rather was solely a case of mental unbalance. Then there is the fact that comparing this situation with two entirely different maladies like chicken pox and cold isnt accurate. Odin describes it as not being "true warrior madness" and from that he implies that while very similar to warrior madness it has a fundamnetal difference from it. On panel, that difference was shown to be the cause of the madness which in this case was Odin.

Odin thought it was Warrior Madness. Just because it “could” spread, it doesn’t make it Warrior Madness. Just because chicken pox is contagious like a cold, it doesn’t mean both have the same effect on a person.

Then you need to check that bio again as on panel events clearly show that it “wasn’t” Warrior Madness. According to bios, Black Bolt is a 60 toner while amping, so they are not always correct. Just saying.

Where does it state this in Thor’s “marvel.com” bio?

Thor > Beta Ray Bill

Obviously it wasn’t a regular Thor. Physically yes as there is no evidence to suggest he was being greatly amped etc. but mentally, he was obviously different than a normal Thor.

I mean I might as well say Surfer = Odin by using Korvac , Enslaver sagas and his higher end showings

If you don’t want to believe it, then it’s up to you. Call it a retcon if it makes you feel better, but it wasn’t Warrior Madness.

Originally posted by Naija boy
It wasnt "true warrior madness" but the effect was the same. This was evident in thors enhanced power level there. Beta ray bill saying that thor was drawing strength from the madness is a really unequivocal statement imo. Him drawing strength from it indicates that he the madness is making him stronger in other words giving him extra strength. Such strength isnt something thor has access to regularly.

Valkryie was pushing him to paranoia but that does not account for the vast strength increase.

Right there, you could easily see the diff. in Thor's power levels; before and after drawing strength from the madness.. From being taken down by BRB's blows to witstanding both direct attacks from Warlock/Surfer and on to Thanos and the watch.. A significant spike in power-levels which is not accessible normally for him less a similar sit. arises..