Mace vs Obi-Wan vs Anakin!!!!

Started by DARTH POWER5 pages
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
What? Didn't you just say that Obi Wan stands no chance vs Mace?? Or are you being sarcastic...

im still saying that Obiwan has no chance against Mace because Mace is more powerful with the force. i just said Mace would have a hard time in "Sabers" getting past Obi1's soresu defences. theres no contradiction there if you READ!

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
He was "in teh zone"

and why cant he be in the zone for this fight??

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
So Anakin stands a chance vs Mace but Obi Wan doesn't? Explain how.

Because Anakin has the Power to Beat Mace. Obi1 doesnt. Same way Anakin beat Dooku, but Obi1 culd never! Not even on his best day! what do you not understand? Mace himself says Anakin is Arguably the MOST POWERFUL JEDI ALIVE!

Mace wins.

@Darth Power

He beat Dooku because he was "in teh zone". He isn't "in teh zone" in EVERY fight, just like how he won't be as unfocused as he was vs Obi Wan in EVERY fight. If he were, then he'd still lose. Why? Mace uses vaapad, so he'd use Anakin's anger against him. So really, being "in teh zone" won't help him out that much.

Wait, which Anakin is this? Dark or Light?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Wait, which Anakin is this? Dark or Light?

Dark side Anakin doesn't exist, he was renamed Darth Vader the moment he went to the Dark Side.

ToMAYto-ToMAHto.

Obi-Wan... cuz he's awesome

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
@Darth Power

He beat Dooku because he was "in teh zone". He isn't "in teh zone" in EVERY fight, just like how he won't be as unfocused as he was vs Obi Wan in EVERY fight. If he were, then he'd still lose. Why? Mace uses vaapad, so he'd use Anakin's anger against him. So really, being "in teh zone" won't help him out that much.

theres no evidence Vapaad would work on Light Side in the zone" Anakin. Since he wasnt a darksider. and even though he had a certain amount of rage fueling him, he was still a light sider and had a lot of goodness fuleing him as well.

theres no evidence Vapaad would work on Light Side in the zone" Anakin.

Me:
Case 2:
Vapaad Practitioner vs. Neutral user or non- Force Sensitive [or light sider]

This is probably the most common occurrence in universe, as there are fewer DS users to fight than say, droids. In this situation Vaapad is fueled by the user's inner darkness- the innate power of Mace Windu, for example. The 'loop does not come into play, but the user still 'skirts the penumbra' of the DS, as shown by Shatterpoint. This is the style that Windu uses in any fight where he is not outclassed by a DS force user.

Precisely so the Super Conducting Loop would be Moot against Light Side "In the Zone" Anakin. Therfore UNLESS Mace finishes Anakin quickly he will get in trouble like Dooku did, as the ROTS Novel makes it clear that Anakin would just get more and more powerful as the fight goes on, thanks to his Unlimited Force Reserves.

Mace wouldn't need the 'loop. He is already faster, stronger and more skilled than Anakin. The loop only comes into play if he is weaker than his opponent. He isn't.

(I could also argue that 'in the zone' does tap the DS because Dooku notes that 'teh zone' is just the Sith technique of rage.)

How exactly was Mace Faster and Stronger than Anakin?? ROTS novel states Anakin to be the Strongest, the Fastest. Mace himself says Anakin was "Arguably the Most Powerful Jedi Alive, and still getting stronger!!"

Dark Rendezvous called Mace Dookus equal in Lightsaber combat.

And Dookus comment about Anakin was that he had "the Gift of Rage" and that he was "Half Sith already".. Only Half. But he was still on the Light Side. So at most you could make the argument that Anakin was a Neutral Force User.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
How exactly was Mace Faster and Stronger than Anakin?? ROTS novel states Anakin to be the Strongest, the Fastest.
"Of his generation." Generation = 25 years.

Mace himself says Anakin was "Arguably the Most Powerful Jedi Alive, and still getting stronger!!"
Don't get so excited. Sheesh.

Dark Rendezvous called Mace Dookus equal in Lightsaber combat.
Now I know you aren't going to use an ABC argument here.

And Dookus comment about Anakin was that he had "the Gift of Rage" and that he was "Half Sith already".. Only Half. But he was still on the Light Side. So at most you could make the argument that Anakin was a Neutral Force User.
... No.

Originally posted by Eminence
"Of his generation." Generation = 25 years.

No it was "The Most Powerful of his Generation... PERHAPS ANY GENERATION" then the Fastest. The Strongest.. were 2 seperate statements. Later Dooku descibed Anakin as a "Destroyer Droid with a Lightsaber. Impossibly Powerful." When was Mace ever described as being that Strong or Powerful?!

Originally posted by Eminence
Don't get so excited. Sheesh.

No ones getting excited. Of course Anakin really wasnt the most powerful jedi. Yoda was clearly. But that statement added to Ki-Adi-Mundi and Plo Koon saying Anakin is the Jedi with the best chance of surving an encounter with a Sith Lord, shows that youll have to actually bring some proof that Mace was faster and Stronger than Anakin.

Originally posted by Eminence
Now I know you aren't going to use an ABC argument here.

No ABC wont work. Especially since Dooku had a good chance of taking Anakin early in the fight, if not distracted by Obi1. But again its just adds to the fact that you will need to prove Mace is more Powerful.

Originally posted by Eminence
... No.

Great reasoning. Oh wait, you didnt give any reasoning. Its simple logic. Anakin hadnt embraced the Dark Side. Maybe Half embraced it at most. But he was still clearly a user of the Light Side as well. So Loop would be pretty moot against sum1 whose only Half embraced his Dark Side feelings. At most he was a Neutral Force User.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No it was "The Most Powerful of his Generation... PERHAPS ANY GENERATION" then the Fastest. The Strongest.. were 2 seperate statements.
"The strongest, the fastest" is tied to "the most powerful." So it would mean "the strongest [of his generation], the fastest [of his generation]. Perhaps of any generation."

And FYI, the "perhaps" makes it rather clear that this isn't an omniscient narrator. Other members here have established that several parts of the book use a third-person limited perspective.

Later Dooku descibed Anakin as a "Destroyer Droid with a Lightsaber. Impossibly Powerful." When was Mace ever described as being that Strong or Powerful?!
See below.

No ones getting excited.
Hence the double exclamation points and question marks.

Of course Anakin really wasnt the most powerful jedi. Yoda was clearly.
Then don't post statements indicating that he is as if they'll do something for your case.

But that statement added to Ki-Adi-Mundi and Plo Koon saying Anakin is the Jedi with the best chance of surving an encounter with a Sith Lord, shows that youll have to actually bring some proof that Mace was faster and Stronger than Anakin.
In Shatterpoint, he lands six blows on Kar Vastor before the man can even blink; Vastor being someone who Mace believed to have raw power on the level of Yoda and Anakin. He also manages to keep up with Darth Sidious long enough for Vaapad to take effect; Sidious being someone who was able to blitz three of the greatest swordsman the Order had ever produced, one of whom took down General Grievous alone.

So, faster.

In the battle of Dantooine, he punches holes through armored super battle droids. A sequence in Shatterpoint showed that his grip was strong enough to snap bone. Another sequence, taking place in the aforementioned brawl with Vastor, has he and Kar charging and slamming into each other so hard and fast that a.) they're suspended in the air for several seconds, fighting on the way down, and b.) they sent lightning through the jungle.

So, stronger.

Mace was a master of Juyo, which requires a "high-level mastery" of other forms. Before TPM, he had created, perfected, and mastered his own deviation of Juyo, Vaapad. As of TPM, even his apprentice had learned and mastered it to the point that Mace believed she had surpassed him. This being before he turns forty.

So, more skilled.

And controlled use of Force-power? In the new CWC, he pushes an AT-TE off of a cliff. In Shatterpoint, he nudges a tipping steamcrawler back into place while stabilizing several hundred tons of loose earth. On his back.

So, more powerful [in a controlled situation].

No ABC wont work. Especially since Dooku had a good chance of taking Anakin early in the fight, if not distracted by Obi1. But again its just adds to the fact that you will need to prove Mace is more Powerful.
See the above, although prior to this I'd never said Mace is more powerful.

Great reasoning. Oh wait, you didnt give any reasoning. Its simple logic. Anakin hadnt embraced the Dark Side. Maybe Half embraced it at most. But he was still clearly a user of the Light Side as well.
Prove it, and for Christ's sake stop taking things so literally. "Half Sith" doesn't really mean "half Sith."

So Loop would be pretty moot against sum1 whose only Half embraced his Dark Side feelings. At most he was a Neutral Force User.
No. What you've either intentionally left out or somehow missed is that Dooku also noted that Anakin was holding himself back for fear of opening the "furnace" inside him; basically, for fear of succumbing to the dark side again, as he did with the Tuskens on Tatooine. When Anakin kills Dooku he is very clearly in the throes of the dark side, so assuming he manages to get there against Mace, Vaapad will kick into effect. And then it's game over.

All youve shown is that Mace has displayed better feats. Which he would have as Anakins power grew over time... It was only at its peak for a short time before he lost to Obi-Wan and lost a lot of his power.

It still doesnt negate the fact that Anakin as of ROTS, was described by Dooku(whose fought Mace in the past) as IMPOSSIBLY Powerful, a Destroyer Droid with a Lightsaber, and was astonished by Anakin's Pure Physical Strength on top of his Unlimited Force Reserves. He also displayed blindingly fast speed in that fight.

He was considered by MANY on the Jedi Council(including Mace) to be among the Most Powerful of Jedis, among those most able to survive an encounter with the Sith Lord. And youve already mentioned how Mace believed Anakin to have the same kind of Raw Power Yoda has. Clearly Above the Raw Power of Mace Windu.

And as for the Force in the ROTS game Anakin impressively levitates and throws a Huge Jedi Temple Statue. And even if we say Mace has better control and use of the Force, well that didnt help Dooku against Anakin once he got into the fight and was all over Dooku. And I dnt think anyone would argue that Dooku is AT LEAST as good with the Force as Mace, if not better.

Technical Skill- well I Vapaad is the deadliest of forms overall. and is the source of a lot of Mace's Power and Speed.
However Anakin competely Mastered Djem So which had Powerful Blows(perfect for Anakin) but specifically designed to apply these to SWORDPLAY. As for Mace being a master of multiple forms... by RODV Vader was trained in all forms of combat. As this wasnt long after ROTS Anakin must have been trained Most forms at least. He displayed good use of Ataro and Shien, not to mention he knew Obiwans Soresu moves inside out after all the sparring with him.

On top of all this we know Nick Gillard called Anakin by ROTS a level 9 swordsman up there with Mace, Yoda and Sidious.

But ill give in to you about the "LOOP" LOL! But the truth is theres not enough evidence to suggest how Vapaad's Loop would work on a Light Sider with a LOT of Rage.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
All youve shown is that Mace has displayed better feats.
But of course, just because he's demonstrated superior strength, speed, skill, and power doesn't mean he has it.

Logic ftw.

Which he would have as Anakins power grew over time... It was only at its peak for a short time before he lost to Obi-Wan and lost a lot of his power.
And he still never demonstrated anything that would put him on Mace's level.

It still doesnt negate the fact that Anakin as of ROTS, was described by Dooku(whose fought Mace in the past) as IMPOSSIBLY Powerful, a Destroyer Droid with a Lightsaber, and was astonished by Anakin's Pure Physical Strength on top of his Unlimited Force Reserves. He also displayed blindingly fast speed in that fight.
Yay.

He was considered by MANY on the Jedi Council(including Mace) to be among the Most Powerful of Jedis, among those most able to survive an encounter with the Sith Lord. And youve already mentioned how Mace believed Anakin to have the same kind of Raw Power Yoda has. Clearly Above the Raw Power of Mace Windu.
And he doesn't have the control to regularly do anything useful with it. He couldn't even overpower Obi-Wan.

And as for the Force in the ROTS game Anakin impressively levitates and throws a Huge Jedi Temple Statue.
Oh, but it's just a feat. It doesn't mean anything.

Right?

And even if we say Mace has better control and use of the Force, well that didnt help Dooku against Anakin once he got into the fight and was all over Dooku.
Dooku didn't use the Force against Anakin. At all.

And I dnt think anyone would argue that Dooku is AT LEAST as good with the Force as Mace, if not better.
Plenty would.

Also, Dooku doesn't have Vaapad.

Technical Skill- well I Vapaad is the deadliest of forms overall. and is the source of a lot of Mace's Power and Speed. However Anakin competely Mastered Djem So which had Powerful Blows(perfect for Anakin) but specifically designed to apply these to SWORDPLAY.
Where was it stated that he'd mastered it?

As for Mace being a master of multiple forms... by RODV Vader was trained in all forms of combat. As this wasnt long after ROTS Anakin must have been trained Most forms at least. He displayed good use of Ataro and Shien, not to mention he knew Obiwans Soresu moves inside out after all the sparring with him.
Anakin was still a master of one at best.

On top of all this we know Nick Gillard called Anakin by ROTS a level 9 swordsman up there with Mace, Yoda and Sidious.
Do you read my posts?
Me
Since when is Nick Gillard a canon source on anything? He's a fight choreographer, nothing more.

But assuming for a moment that he is a legitimate source, he still states that Anakin is a nine when using the dark side, which means Mace would still kick his ass.

But ill give in to you about the "LOOP" LOL! But the truth is theres not enough evidence to suggest how Vapaad's Loop would work on a Light Sider with a LOT of Rage.
...

A light sider with "a lot of rage" is using the dark side. Obi-Wan did it, Luke did it, Anakin made a hobby out of it.

This is my last post on the matter, because you're simply hopeless.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

But ill give in to you about the "LOOP" LOL! But the truth is theres not enough evidence to suggest how Vapaad's Loop would work on a Light Sider with a LOT of Rage.
..........Cuz you know, rage doesn't have anything to do with the Dark Side.

Originally posted by Eminence
Where was it stated that he'd mastered it?

'
Dooku noted that the boy (Anakin) was a Djem So stylist, and as fine a one as Dooku had ever seen

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
..........Cuz you know, rage doesn't have anything to do with the Dark Side.

Yes it does. But Anakin hadnt embraced the Dark Side yet. You cant tell me ALL his Powerf came from the Dark Side when he was still a light sider. Id call him a Neutral Force user personally. What % exactly of the Dark Side and Light Side he was using is anyone's guess. and is probably a pretty pointless argument. But I would say he was probably still using more of the Light Side, otherwise he would have already fallen to the Dark Side.