Mace vs Obi-Wan vs Anakin!!!!

Started by DARTH POWER5 pages
Originally posted by Eminence

And he still never demonstrated anything that would put him on Mace's level.

He only had one film to do so.. He was getting stronger throughout the clone wars, and was at his peak for a very short time.
And yet he still demonstrated IMMENSE POWER, SPEED AND PHYSICAL STRENGTH against Count Dooku, who was One of the Most Powerful Jedis in its 25000 year history, and an EVEN MORE POWERFUL Sith Lord.

Not to Mention how Agen Kolar, and Ki-Adi-Mundi and Mace Windu all uninamously agreed that Anakin was POSSIBLY already the Most Powerful Jedi, and the One Most Likely to survive a Fight with a Sith Lord.

Originally posted by Eminence
And he doesn't have the control to regularly do anything useful with it. He couldn't even overpower Obi-Wan.

he wasnt "In the Zone" then was he?? his mental state was totally screwed up. but he still matched Obi1 in a force push, and Obiwan has a MEAN Force Push.. Check out how he pushed General Greivous in ROTS and Destroyer Droids in the Animation.

Originally posted by Eminence
Dooku didn't use the Force against Anakin. At all.

Because he didnt get a chance with Anakin all Over Him.

Originally posted by Eminence
Anakin was still a master of one at best. .

The evidence points to the contrary. As he was trained in Juyo by RODV, for which you need to be a High Level Master of Multiple forms, as you yourself have poinnted out.

Originally posted by Eminence
This is my last post on the matter, because you're simply hopeless.

Whatever. Thats the usual response I expect from Mace fanboys. You just cant take it if you even suggest anyone else might be as powerful as him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He only had one film to do so.. He was getting stronger throughout the clone wars, and was at his peak for a very short time.
And yet he still demonstrated IMMENSE POWER, SPEED AND PHYSICAL STRENGTH against Count Dooku, who was One of the Most Powerful Jedis in its 25000 year history, and an EVEN MORE POWERFUL Sith Lord.
Lol, "one film to do so" doesn't cut it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not to Mention how Agen Kolar, and Ki-Adi-Mundi and Mace Windu all uninamously agreed that Anakin was POSSIBLY already the Most Powerful Jedi, and the One Most Likely to survive a Fight with a Sith Lord.
Possibly.

Something rather negated by the fact that Mace survived Palaptine. Vapaad+Shatterpoint+Mace>Anakin using the Dark.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Lol, "one film to do so" doesn't cut it.

of course it does! Anakin was at his peak for a very short time. Dindt even last the whole movie considering how his mental state deteriorated throughout the film.
and yet his still demonstrated immense power over Dooku. Was Mace ever able to OverPower Dooku that badly? No.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Possibly.

Something rather negated by the fact that Mace survived Palaptine. Vapaad+Shatterpoint+Mace>Anakin using the Dark.

OK I can do that. Compeltey Mastered Djem So + Unlimited Force Reserves + Chosen One + Light Side Anakin > Mace

Look Anakin wasnt a Dark Sider when he was a Jedi, and Overpowered Count Dooku. Something Mace was never able to do. Anyone who can overpower Dooku that badly making his "mastery of swordplay irrelevant" and his "knowledge of the force a JOKE" is AT LEAST as Powerful as Mace Windu. But most probably More Powerful.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
OK I can do that. Compeltey Mastered Djem So + Unlimited Force Reserves + Chosen One + Light Side Anakin > Mace

Look Anakin wasnt a Dark Sider when he was a Jedi, and Overpowered Count Dooku. Something Mace was never able to do. Anyone who can overpower Dooku that badly making his "mastery of swordplay irrelevant" and his "knowledge of the force a JOKE" is AT LEAST as Powerful as Mace Windu. But most probably More Powerful.

Ok I can do that.

Look Mace wasnt a Dark Sider when he was a Jedi, and Overpowered Darth Sidious. Something Anakin couldn't do ("You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with Sidious"😉. Anyone who can overpower Sidious that badly making his "Kills 3 Jedi Masters in seconds with lightsaber" and his "most powerful Sith Lord fact a JOKE" is AT LEAST as Powerful as Anakin Skywalker. But most probably More Powerful.

Oh, by the way, if you say that Mace had the best lightsaber form to fight Sidious (Vaapaad > Dark Side), then it can be said that Anakin had the best lightsaber form to fight Dooku. (Djem So > Makashi)

😱

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
of course it does! Anakin was at his peak for a very short time. Dindt even last the whole movie considering how his mental state deteriorated throughout the film.
and yet his still demonstrated immense power over Dooku. Was Mace ever able to OverPower Dooku that badly? No.

OK I can do that. Compeltey Mastered Djem So + Unlimited Force Reserves + Chosen One + Light Side Anakin > Mace

Look Anakin wasnt a Dark Sider when he was a Jedi, and Overpowered Count Dooku. Something Mace was never able to do. Anyone who can overpower Dooku that badly making his "mastery of swordplay irrelevant" and his "knowledge of the force a JOKE" is AT LEAST as Powerful as Mace Windu. But most probably More Powerful.

What Slash said.

"Mastered Djem So"----cool.
"Unlimited Force Reserves"---won't mean much when Mace whoops his ass.
"Chosen One"---who cares?
"Light Side Anakin"---going down.

LS Anakin is NOT a god. Coulda--woulda--shoulda--ain't.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
"Kills 3 Jedi Masters in seconds with lightsaber"

Which Mace had NO POWER to stop, didnt even have the reflexes to react in time. Clear evidence that if the other 3 Jedis wernt there and Sidious went straight for Mace first he could have Killed Mace quite early on, before Mace even had a chance to Sink into Vapaad.

and his "most powerful Sith Lord fact a JOKE" [/B][/QUOTE]

Hardly made a joke out of him. They were dead equal(once Mace had sunk into Vapaad) according to the novel until Mace gained a tactical advantage. Thats why he says to Sidious "You fight like a jedi, but your no jedi.." Anakin on the other hand Was A Jedi and just had 3 years experience constantly fighting in the Clone Wars.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Oh, by the way, if you say that Mace had the best lightsaber form to fight Sidious (Vaapaad > Dark Side), then it can be said that Anakin had the best lightsaber form to fight Dooku. (Djem So > Makashi)

Totally different things. and you know it. Vapaad used its Metaphysical properties to equal Sidious in Power and Speed. Without which Mace would not have stood a chance. Hardly comparable to a clash of techniques as Djem So and Makashi.

Besides just because Makashi doesnt generate enough Kinetic energy to take on Makshi Head On, doesnt mean anything. The Makashi user can still deflect and parry which is what its designed for. Read the novel, Dooku gave Anakin a taunt and then was parrying off Anakins(Djem So) attacks off comftorbly.

The Novel makes it very clear that the reason Dooku was losing SO BADLY (in the end) the reason Anakin made his Mastery of Swordplay "Irrelevant", and his Knowledge of the Force "A JOKE" was Anakin simply had WAYYYYY too much Raw Power + Unlimited Force Reserves. And actually kept getting Stronger.. Probably more RAW power than even Yoda.

Thats why Mace says himself "Skywalker is ARGUABLY the Most Powerful Jedi Alive"...
Even though we are told later that Yoda was the "Most Devastatingly Powerful"..... Anakin still may well have had More RAW Power at his disposal.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

"Unlimited Force Reserves"---won't mean much when Mace whoops his ass.

Really? The fact that he has wayyy more Raw Power at his Disposal+Unlimited Reserves wnt mean much when hes fighting Mace??

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

"Light Side Anakin"---going down.

Doubt it. How Much More Powerul than Dooku do you think Mace is exactly???

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
LS Anakin is NOT a god.

Neither is Mace. But Only Anakin has been even suggested to be the Most Powerful Jedi in any respect. And Possibly the Strongest and Fastest. Not Mace.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Which Mace had NO POWER to stop

How should he have stopped Sidious? By walking straight through Fisto in order to stop the Sith Lords onslaught? I'd love to know how you imagine Mace could have acted...


didnt even have the reflexes to react in time.

A statement that contradicts the movie which shows that Mace is the only Jedi in Sidious office that shows any reaction to the Sith Lord that comes flying at the team. The other three didn't move, apparently because not having any time to do that.


Clear evidence that if the other 3 Jedis wernt there and Sidious went straight for Mace first he could have Killed Mace quite early on, before Mace even had a chance to Sink into Vapaad.

a) This is nothing but speculation.
b) Considering the fact that Mace did survive, even when not completely sunken into Vaapad, shows, that he is very well able to do the job on his own. Notice how the RotS novel elaborates on this and pretty much states that, once sunken into Vaapad, Mace was free to take action against Sidious force wise since he didn't have to focus on the lightsaber action any longer, which worked based on nothing but automatism.

So your argument is trash.

Hardly made a joke out of him. They were dead equal(once Mace had sunk into Vapaad) according to the novel until Mace gained a tactical advantage. Thats why he says to Sidious "You fight like a jedi, but your no jedi.." Anakin on the other hand Was A Jedi and just had 3 years experience constantly fighting in the Clone Wars.

How does any of that matter for a hypothetical confrontation between Mace and Anakin? Mace overpowered (Lucas own word) Darth Sidious. A feat that Anakin couldn't even dream to archive. What has Anakin done to put him on an equal level? Let's see: He killed Count Dooku, while residing in a completely unique metaphysical state-of-being ("the zone"😉 and while confronting an enemy who was (once more according to the RotS novel) told to let Anakin win the fight.

If that is the only measure of Anakin's supposed uber duelling capacities, we can just say that you have no proof that Anakin is anywhere close to the saber greats (Sidious, Yoda, Mace, Dooku) in terms of dueling skill under regular circumstances.


Totally different things. and you know it. Vapaad used its Metaphysical properties to equal Sidious in Power and Speed. Without which Mace would not have stood a chance. Hardly comparable to a clash of techniques as Djem So and Makashi.

There was no "clash of techniques". Did Anakin defeat Dooku through technique? No. He overpowered him with brute force and not finesse. And to nail it onto your forehead once again: He did overcome an opponent that was comanded to lose to him, which hardly is a noteworthy feat.
And for the "metaphysical properties" of Vapaad, you might want to read "Shatterpoint". You will eventually stumble upon the fact that Mace is never fighting without that certain technique which greatly boosts his (already formidable) combat abilities.


The Novel makes it very clear that the reason Dooku was losing SO BADLY (in the end) the reason Anakin made his Mastery of Swordplay "Irrelevant", and his Knowledge of the Force "A JOKE" was Anakin simply had WAYYYYY too much Raw Power + Unlimited Force Reserves. And actually kept getting Stronger.. Probably more RAW power than even Yoda.

First: The story makes it pretty clear that because of Dooku's taunt Anakin allowed his emotions - that he supressed before - to take over. That unleashed a nice part of his - otherwise unrealized - potential which then allowed him to defeat Dooku. The point is that you can't assume this will happen in any fight Anakin participates in. Notice how even Dooku himself kicked Anakin's sorry ass across the place just seconds before he taunted him and - in turn - was defeated.


Thats why Mace says himself "Skywalker is ARGUABLY the Most Powerful Jedi Alive"...
Even though we are told later that Yoda was the "Most Devastatingly Powerful"..... Anakin still may well have had More RAW Power at his disposal.

Which doesn't matter because Anakin is clearly not able to use this power in a controlled fashion. This is evident, given that he's not able to overpower Kenobi. Yet you want to tell us that he's somehow able to overcome somebody more skilled then Kenobi in terms of raw lightsaber abilities and more powerful when it comes to force mastery?

So yes. Lucien is quite right: Anakin having access (via a plot-device) to more raw force powers doesn't matter because he can't control it. He can't beat Kenobi in a force contest. He can't beat Kenobi in a saber-contest. Bottom line: Given that he can't do that, how would he be able to do it to somebody more powerful and more skilled then Kenobi? I'd love to see your explanation - maybe one that isn't built around a plot-device which is just there to get rid of Dooku.

Originally posted by Borbarad

How does any of that matter for a hypothetical confrontation between Mace and Anakin? Mace overpowered (Lucas own word) Darth Sidious. A feat that Anakin couldn't even dream to archive.

Completely irrelevant as Mace would never be as strong or as fast against Anakin as he was against Sidious.

Otherwise by your completely irrelevant A>B>C argument Mace is more powerful than Yoda as Yoda culdnt overpower Sidious but Mace did.

Originally posted by Borbarad
What has Anakin done to put him on an equal level? Let's see: He killed Count Dooku, while residing in a completely unique metaphysical state-of-being ("the zone"😉 and while confronting an enemy who was (once more according to the RotS novel) told to let Anakin win the fight..

A state he may be able to replicate in a hypothetical fight against Mace. However Mace culd never replicate the Speed and Power he had against Sidious (due to the Superconducting loop in that fight), in a fight against Anakin.
And Dooku changed his mind about losing to Anakin once he realised how dangerous he was, and that it was him controlling the fight not Dooku. He had decided to kill Anakin.

Originally posted by Borbarad
If that is the only measure of Anakin's supposed uber duelling capacities, we can just say that you have no proof that Anakin is anywhere close to the saber greats (Sidious, Yoda, Mace, Dooku) in terms of dueling skill under regular circumstances.]..

Anakin beat Dooku fair and Square. Deal with it. And Nick Gillard has already put Anakins duelling skills up there with Sidious, Yoda and Mace. So I dnt knw where your getting your information from.

Originally posted by Borbarad
First: The story makes it pretty clear that because of Dooku's taunt Anakin allowed his emotions - that he supressed before - to take over. That unleashed a nice part of his - otherwise unrealized - potential which then allowed him to defeat Dooku. The point is that you can't assume this will happen in any fight Anakin participates in.].]..

and theres nothing to suggest he culdnt replicate that feat again.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Notice how even Dooku himself kicked Anakin's sorry ass across the place just seconds before he taunted him and - in turn - was defeated..].]..

That shows Dooku was winning.. it doesnt show he already won! And iv already admitted that Both Dooku and Mace would have a decent chance of defeating Anakin early in a fight, as Anakin gets stronger as the fight goes on.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Which doesn't matter because Anakin is clearly not able to use this power in a controlled fashion. This is evident, given that he's not able to overpower Kenobi. Yet you want to tell us that he's somehow able to overcome somebody more skilled then Kenobi in terms of raw lightsaber abilities and more powerful when it comes to force mastery?

He used his power in a controlled fashion against Count Dooku in ROTS, and in the animated movie.

And your comparing the Kenobi fight??!! thats a HUGE BLUNDER in your argument! and the worst application of the A>B>C argument.

Anakin and Kenobi knew each others moves inside out. They knew each other "more intimately than lovers" and fought like "two halves of the same warrior"
Mace doesnt know Anakins moves inside out, nor does Anakin know his. Hence a completely different fight. Plus your picking the fight in which Anakin had the LEAST focus and control over his power. Very Poor Argument.

Originally posted by Borbarad
maybe one that isn't built around a plot-device which is just there to get rid of Dooku.

And Mace beating Sidious was a plot device as Anakins turning to the Dark Side.. so what?? It HAPPENED!! Very Poor Arguments from someone claiming that im talking trash. Very Weak.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Completely irrelevant as Mace would never be as strong or as fast against Anakin as he was against Sidious.
He doesn't need to be that fast to be faster than Anakin.

Otherwise by your completely irrelevant A>B>C argument Mace is more powerful than Yoda as Yoda culdnt overpower Sidious but Mace did.
lolwut

1.) You were the one arguing that just because Anakin beat Dooku he could beat Mace, because Dooku's Force powers were greater than Mace's. Hypocrite.

2.) You've also been arguing that Anakin had a chance against Sidious, which is addressed directly above. So whether Nai is aware of it or not, it is relevant.

A state he may be able to replicate in a hypothetical fight against Mace.
If Mace kidnaps and apparently terrifies one of the closest men to him in the galaxy, brutally knocks out the other man closest to him in the galaxy, had led a galaxy-wide violent separatist movement responsible for the deaths of countless billions, had cut off his arm three years earlier, and decided in the midst of their fight to try and piss Anakin off as much as possible so that he went dark side.

Yeah. Maybe.

However Mace culd never replicate the Speed and Power he had against Sidious (due to the Superconducting loop in that fight), in a fight against Anakin.
See the above.

Again, assuming that Anakin in his moment of clarity is faster than Mace - he's certainly stronger - Mace will gain that speed and strength, too.

And stop saying "power" so much.

And Dooku changed his mind about losing to Anakin once he realised how dangerous he was, and that it was him controlling the fight not Dooku. He had decided to kill Anakin.
No he hadn't.

The point is that when Anakin got angry, Dooku had no say in the matter.

Anakin beat Dooku fair and Square. Deal with it. And Nick Gillard has already put Anakins duelling skills up there with Sidious, Yoda and Mace. So I dnt knw where your getting your information from.
1.) Now you're just deliberately witholding information. The courts are investigating the prosecutors of Ted Stevens for that, y'know.

Gillard said that Anakin was a "9" with the advantage afforded to him by the dark side. Again, that's when Mace would proceed to kick his ass in traditional form.

2.) Nick Gillard isn't a reputable canon source.

and theres nothing to suggest he culdnt replicate that feat again.
See the above.

And I don't understand why you repeatedly ignore what I've been telling you. In "the zone," Anakin is using the dark side. Any boosts in strength or speed he gains, Mace would gain too, courtesy of Vaapad. Shatterpoint would take care of the rest.

He used his power in a controlled fashion against Count Dooku in ROTS,
When he got pissed off. He still didn't do anything overt with his actual powers (telekinesis, etc.), which is what Nai is referring to.

and in the animated movie.
And did... what, exactly?

And Mace beating Sidious was a plot device as Anakins turning to the Dark Side.. so what?? It HAPPENED!! Very Poor Arguments from someone claiming that im talking trash. Very Weak.
You're terrible at this.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Completely irrelevant as Mace would never be as strong or as fast against Anakin as he was against Sidious.

You base that statement on what exactly? Mace didn't boost his own speed or strength using Vaapad. Not even according to the novel. He used the "superconducting loop" to irritate the Sith Lord (reflecting Sidious fear back on him), which made Sidious lose speed and lower his defense. Then Mace disarmed him. That doesn't change the fact that Mace is equal to Sidious in terms of speed once fully emerged into Vaapad.


Otherwise by your completely irrelevant A>B>C argument Mace is more powerful than Yoda as Yoda culdnt overpower Sidious but Mace did.

Coming from the guy that attempts to use an A>B>C argument? Pretty hilarious. And where couldn't Yoda overpower Sidious? Notice that Mace and Sidious were fighting on equal ground, while the duel between Yoda and Sidious happens in situations in which the Sith Lord always has a position of advantage. They aren't compareable.

Where was Kenobi's position of advantage during his fight with Anakin (with the exception of the last scene, in which he assumed the higher ground)? Where was Kenobi's advantage in their force contest?


A state he may be able to replicate in a hypothetical fight against Mace.

Yes. Because Mace would likely apply Dun Möch (a Sith technique) against Anakin, in order to taunt him into utilizing his dark emotions, right? Lmao.

However Mace culd never replicate the Speed and Power he had against Sidious (due to the Superconducting loop in that fight), in a fight against Anakin.

a) See above.
b) Why would Mace even need to replicate that speed and power. That would only make sense if you want to assume that Anakin is equal to Sidious in terms of force mastery. I hope you don't even want to try that kind of argument. Because then I would have to rip you into so many little pieces, that even my grandma, who can do a 1000-piece-puzzle in one hour, will never be able to finish putting you back together again - even if she would go back in time to when her vision was perfect.


And Dooku changed his mind about losing to Anakin once he realised how dangerous he was, and that it was him controlling the fight not Dooku. He had decided to kill Anakin.

How comes that people like you and Gideon never get the point? If I follow a command to lose a fight, I'm not giving all I can from the beginning on. How often could Dooku have killed Anakin, if he had tried it? The situation in which he floored Kenobi and Anakin at the same time and then spent several seconds to crush the - already knocked out - Jedi Knight. That would have been a nice opportunity to get rid of Skywalker, right?

And of course he wouldn't have lost, if he hadn't taunted Anakin to use the dark side. I said that before and you ignored it. Here you have it again.


Anakin beat Dooku fair and Square. Deal with it. And Nick Gillard has already put Anakins duelling skills up there with Sidious, Yoda and Mace. So I dnt knw where your getting your information from.

Oh really?
I didn't see Nick Gillard handing out any numbers for Sidious, Yoda or Mace. Gosh. So how could he put Anakin on one level with them - without defining a level for them. That clearly doesn't make sense. And, as much as I hate to say it, but Lucas word is gospel. And his word is: You have to be Yoda or Mace to sucessfully challenge Sidious. Conclusion: Anakin is not on one level with Yoda, Mace and Sidious. End of debate.


and theres nothing to suggest he culdnt replicate that feat again.

You mean with the exception of the fact that he never did it before or after? Not to mention that he didn't even archieve it on his own but had Dooku taunt him into the zone? Sorry. If there was any hint that Anakin could somehow get into that state at will (or with some work) I'd agree with you. Here you simply don't have a point and also contradict Lucas (note: the only absolute canon existing in the SW Universe) in order to come to your conclusion. In short: YOU FAIL.


That shows Dooku was winning.. it doesnt show he already won! And iv already admitted that Both Dooku and Mace would have a decent chance of defeating Anakin early in a fight, as Anakin gets stronger as the fight goes on.

He doesn't automatically get stronger the longer the fight lasts. Where did you get that from? If anything, then the opponent would tired more then Anakin over time. That helps him how exactly against opponents clearly above his own level?


He used his power in a controlled fashion against Count Dooku in ROTS, and in the animated movie.

Lmao. Where exactly, pal? In the animated movie, Dooku easily destroys Anakin in their little force contest. There you go. In RotS? I didn't see Anakin using his force mastery much there. When he tries, he's on par with Kenobi. Who was owned by Dooku before. Nice show.


And your comparing the Kenobi fight??!! thats a HUGE BLUNDER in your argument! and the worst application of the A>B>C argument.

I, at least, have an argument, where you just attempt to ramble against established canon. Did I already mention that YOU FAIL?


Anakin and Kenobi knew each others moves inside out. They knew each other "more intimately than lovers" and fought like "two halves of the same warrior"
Mace doesnt know Anakins moves inside out, nor does Anakin know his. Hence a completely different fight. Plus your picking the fight in which Anakin had the LEAST focus and control over his power. Very Poor Argument.

It's getting better and better.
So Mace Windu who mastered the form Anakin is using in order to create Vaapad doesn't have a clue about Anakin's movement patterns? That's hilarious. I'd say he knows that form far better than Kenobi does, who just observed it but did never study it.
And you call it a "poor argument" when I use this fight? This while your trying to pass down an argument based on an Anakin in a metaphysical situation that he never assumed before or after. Nice.


And Mace beating Sidious was a plot device as Anakins turning to the Dark Side.. so what?? It HAPPENED!! Very Poor Arguments from someone claiming that im talking trash. Very Weak.

You still fail to note the difference between archieving something based on your own ability and archieving something with the help of an opponent that is not allowed to defeat you anyway. And you dare to call any argument "poor"? To make it clear: Even the worst debators around here have to bow down in order to spit on your head. So how about a nice cup of STFU before you embaress yourself further?

Pwned.

I think the RoTS novelization spoke of Anakin getting stronger the longer the fight went on. When he was fighting Kenobi. When he was immersed in the Dark Side. When he's getting tooled by Vapaad.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Pwned.

Totally

nah. DP is obviously winning.

I win.

Nevar

Raven!

Never

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2yv8aT0UFc

funny as all hell