Caedus Vs. Bane

That, and this:

Revelation
Luke's StealthX nudged him again from behind-how? Caedus couldn't see. Force push? Something metallic inside the fuselage shrieked. He had a sense of someone rummag-ing furiously in the drives as if looking for a dropped hydrospanner, throwing fragments into the coils. He's ripping the thing apart...

Caedus tried to block Luke in the Force and suddenly got an idea of just how much power Luke could muster. His seat shot forward, sheared off the runners, tipped to one side, and he hit the console at an angle before he could buffer the collision with the Force. Something cracked in his chest. Pain flared, stopping his breathing.

Kind've makes Luke retarded if he gets critically injured in a duel with a man who is not a top tier duelist or Force user, despite the fact that [Luke] had battle rage, the element of surprise, and third party interference.

Well it wasn't really a straight-up lightsaber imo. Caedus used the environment alot, ran away and used force attacks, turned off the lights and fought in the dark and the times they did go blade to blade they both used punches and kicks etc a hell of alot more than their lightsabers. In fact, the only time they did fight with lightsabers Luke drove Jacens lightsaber into his own shoulder and cut off half the skin on his face. Furthermore, Luke was still recovering from his fight with Lumiya. So imo that fight doesn't really speak much for his technical abilities (other than hand to hand, which won't help him here), but instead for his force power in keeping up and his tactical skills.

And he didn't duel 4 people at once, he specifically took steps to separate them and fight them in singles or doubles, firstly by using the force to hinder two at the start, then disengaging from Katarn and kicking Horn, using the force again etc. Its not really the same as Bane, who actually did fight 3 at once, 2 of which were masters.

So yeah, becuase Bane arguably has more skill, better feats and comparable force levels, he would win in lightsaber combat, the only problem being shatterpoint, though Caedus hasn't ever used that in combat iir and that only takes care of the orbalisks, not the othet factors. In the Force, Bane would win as well imo.

😐

Gideon
Easy, killer.

Kind've makes Luke retarded if he gets critically injured in a duel with a man who is not a top tier duelist or Force user, despite the fact that [Luke] had battle rage, the element of surprise, and third party interference.

Don't argue the fact that it wasn't "a straight up duel lawl" when Luke attacked without warning from behind. Also, don't mention previous injuries when Luke was the beneficiary of battle rage, which enhanced his combat skills. And lastly, don't mention turning off lights and using the environment when Luke's son put a knife between Caedus's shoulder blades.

Like I've told Lightsnake, Darth Sexy, Eminence, and apparently you two, Luke entered the duel with far more advantages than Caedus, and this precludes their respective skill.

Period.

The end.

/discussion

131

Don't argue the fact that it wasn't "a straight up duel lawl" when Luke attacked without warning from behind.

Actually, Ben gave him plenty of warning, y'know, when he..... actually warned him. 😛

And then Ben gave him away by acknowledging his leap with a dropped jaw, giving Caedus enough time to turn and defend.

Also, don't mention previous injuries when Luke was the beneficiary of battle rage, which enhanced his combat skills.

Which doesn't really matter considering they barely used their lightsabers, so their fight hardly speaks for Caedus' skills in that area. What it does show is that he can punch and kick like a master, not that that'll be of much help here.

. And lastly, don't mention turning off lights and using the environment when Luke's son put a knife between Caedus's shoulder blades.

No, Jacen used the lights thing to gain an advantage over Luke, and Luke still handed him his ass. Ben helping out does nothing to speak of either combatants, in fact him being there stopped Luke from killing Jacen mid-way through.

Like I've told Lightsnake, Darth Sexy, Eminence, and apparently you two, Luke entered the duel with far more advantages than Caedus, and this precludes their respective skill.

I've just got to disagree with that score.

Nephthys
Actually, Ben gave him plenty of warning, y'know, when he..... actually warned him. 😛

Which Caedus instantly believed, reached for his lightsaber, prompting Luke to pause for the requisite banter and obligatory vows of death?

Oh, wait.

Nephthys
And then Ben gave him away by acknowledging his leap with a dropped jaw, giving Caedus enough time to turn and defend.

Gideon
Which Caedus instantly believed, reached for his lightsaber, prompting Luke to pause for the requisite banter and obligatory vows of death?

Oh, wait.

Nephthys
Which doesn't really matter considering they barely used their lightsabers, so their fight hardly speaks for Caedus' skills in that area. What it does show is that he can punch and kick like a master, not that that'll be of much help here.

They barely used their lightsabers? Simply because the narration didn't specify every single blow made doesn't mean that they didn't use them. I don't even have the book on hand and yet I know for a fact that there's a reference towards the end of the duel that they were clashing sabers "faster than the eye could follow."

Battle rage enhances one's physical abilities. Makes one faster, stronger, and more durable.

Nephthys
No, Jacen used the lights thing to gain an advantage over Luke, and Luke still handed him his ass. Ben helping out does nothing to speak of either combatants, in fact him being there stopped Luke from killing Jacen mid-way through.

Ben putting a knife between Caedus's shoulder blades also prevented him from fighting back against Luke; it was the move that ended the duel.

Nephyths
I've just got to disagree with that score.

Feel free.

Meanwhile, I'll indulge my right to conclude that shutting off the lights does not outweigh battle rage, the element of surprise, and third party interference by one combatant's son.

so gideon, you disagree with Caedus's own evaluation of the fight? (not arguing, just wondering how that fits into your summation)

i can repost the quote if you want.

Caedus seemed to think he lost on even footing to Luke.

Pg. 266

Luke had beaten him. Luke had just kept coming despite his injuries. He had inflicted more damage on Caedus than he had suffered himself, and he had even escaped the garrote before Ben struck. In fact, it was probably that attack that had saved Caedus's life. Nothing else could have shocked Luke out of his battle rage--only the sight of Ben slipping so far to the dark side.

It was a memory that both frightened Caedus and burned his pride, but it was one that he would have to contemplate at length.

Which Caedus instantly believed, reached for his lightsaber, prompting Luke to pause for the requisite banter and obligatory vows of death?

Oh, wait.

You're right, he didn't.

Which Caedus instantly believed, reached for his lightsaber, prompting Luke to pause for the requisite banter and obligatory vows of death?

Oh, wait.

You're wrong, he did.- 'Ben's jaw dropped and Jacen started to spin, snatching his lightsaber from his belt.' Luke didn't have the element of surprise.

They barely used their lightsabers? Simply because the narration didn't specify every single blow made doesn't mean that they didn't use them. I don't even have the book on hand and yet I know for a fact that there's a reference towards the end of the duel that they were clashing sabers "faster than the eye could follow."

Nope, the actual quote is-' They came together in a blinding flurry of sparks, their blades colliding faster than the eye could see, filling the dark chamber with flashing fans of color. Blows (detailed as being hand to hand) came out of nowhere'. Only one blow is detailed, and while the term 'fans of color' may suggest more than one strike, it could easily detailed a mere initial strike a piece.

Battle rage enhances one's physical abilities. Makes one faster, stronger, and more durable.

But does nothing (or possibly weakening) ones technical abilities, which is what I'm discussing.

Ben putting a knife between Caedus's shoulder blades also prevented him from fighting back against Luke; it was the move that ended the duel.

Yes, and it actually probably saved his life, as Jacen mulls later that Luke would have beaten him without it.

Meanwhile, I'll indulge my right to conclude that shutting off the lights does not outweigh battle rage, the element of surprise, and third party interference by one combatant's son.

Feel free.

also, i don't see how being in battle rage can technically be described as an "advantage"
Where is the evidence that Jacen wasn't in a battle rage? was he in a battle? Yes. Was he angry? yes. Thus, Battle-Rage. Just because battle rage is something that is unusual to a clear-headed Jedi Luke, That same battle rage is pretty standard for Jacen's saber battles.

I'll give you the element of surprise. That was definitly advantage luke. But the other things? I don't see them as much of an advantage, in fact, considering the fight was on Jacen's home turf, and he uses elements of that turf to his advantage, most of the rest of the fight (after initial surprise, that failed, and in fact, "Made Jacen Stronger" The advantages were Jacen's.) (Especially considering the "advantage" that was luke's, ended up cracking several of Luke's already injured ribs.)

Must we really go through this song-and-dance routine again, Exodus?

You're not going to win. You never do.

I am, as ever, right. And invincible. And awesome. And unstoppable.

I'm like the Mike Tyson of debating, and I'm about to bite your fvcking ear off!

/rant

Exodus
You're right,

Thank you.

Exodus
You're wrong, he did.- 'Ben's jaw dropped and Jacen started to spin, snatching his lightsaber from his belt.' Luke didn't have the element of surprise.

Now post the part that explains why Ben's jaw dropped, Exodus.

And do it now.

Exodus
Nope, the actual quote is-' They came together in a blinding flurry of sparks, their blades colliding faster than the eye could see, filling the dark chamber with flashing fans of color. Blows (detailed as being hand to hand) came out of nowhere'. Only one blow is detailed, and while the term 'fans of color' may suggest more than one strike, it could easily detailed a mere initial strike a piece.

You're not free to argue this. You're attempting too (and rather poorly, I might add) interpret the duel to suit your [blatant] agenda. This was a duel; a fight to the death between a Jedi and a Sith, the primary weapon was a lightsaber. Unless you have something that proves that they "barely" used it and that the "flashing fans of color" constitutes only one strike a piece, you will concede and move on.

Exodus
But does nothing (or possibly weakening) ones technical abilities, which is what I'm discussing.

...

Damn it, you're right. I'm sorry. Though this galls me to admit, when one becomes stronger, faster, and more durable in a duel, the payoff is clearly that one forgets how to use one's weapon properly.

Gideon
Oh, wait.

Exodus
Yes, and it actually probably saved his life, as Jacen mulls later that Luke would have beaten him without it.

It doesn't matter whether or not Luke may have won the duel without Ben's interference. We're not arguing whether or not Luke is the superior duelist; we're arguing who had more advantages in that fight. It was clearly Luke.

Truejedi
so gideon, you disagree with Caedus's own evaluation of the fight? (not arguing, just wondering how that fits into your summation)

i can repost the quote if you want.

Caedus seemed to think he lost on even footing to Luke

no, damn it

Gideon
It doesn't matter whether or not Luke may have won the duel without Ben's interference. We're not arguing whether or not Luke is the superior duelist; we're arguing who had more advantages in that fight. It was clearly Luke.

Originally posted by Gideon

It doesn't matter whether or not Luke may have won the duel without Ben's interference. We're not arguing whether or not Luke is the superior duelist; we're arguing who had more advantages in that fight. It was clearly Luke.

k, i think we are on the same page here.

Originally posted by truejedi
k, i think we are on the same page here.

Indeed.

We have become one with the Page.

You and I have merged...

😖hifty:

Originally posted by Gideon
Indeed.

We have become one with the Page.

You and I have merged...

😖hifty:

you realize that is the same smilie you left when i was darth sexy about his big thing?

As Darth Daniel would say:

Ewww... Now i bet that is SOME kinda inuendo!

Too=/=to Gideon

Must we really go through this song-and-dance routine again, Exodus?

You're not going to win. You never do.

I am, as ever, right. And invincible. And awesome. And unstoppable.

I'm like the Mike Tyson of debating, and I'm about to bite your fvcking ear off!

/rant

.... Aren't you retired?

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Now post the part that explains why Ben's jaw dropped, Exodus.

And do it now.

Becuase Luke jumped at Jacen attempting the element of surprise. Too bad Ben ruined it.

You're not free to argue this. You're attempting too (and rather poorly, I might add) interpret the duel to suit your [blatant] agenda.

Not really. As I hinted at, the full quote is, 'Blows came out of nowhere. Luke caught another kick in his knee and found himself relying on the force to keep his balance. He landed an elbow and felt a bone in Jacens face'. No mention of lightsaber strikes, but the 'blows' specifically referenced to being physical body strikes.

Unless you have something that proves that they "barely" used it and that the "flashing fans of color" constitutes only one strike a piece, you will concede and move on.

Because the term 'flashing fans of color' is ambiguous hyperbole. It may reference more than one strike, it may be just their initial collision. The difference is that the latter has credibility becuase the text is describing Luke and Jacen coming together in an initial collision. Most likely however, the text should be discarded as ambiguous with only one lightsaber strike and two hand-to-hand strikes provable.

...

Damn it, you're right. I'm sorry. Though this galls me to admit, when one becomes stronger, faster, and more durable in a duel, the payoff is clearly that one forgets how to use one's weapon properly.

I said possibly jerkass. And wasn't it Anakins extreme rage that stopped him from being able to defeat Kenobi (lack of focus). And when kenobi used his rage Maul co-incidentally puts him on his ass. And when Luke uses his his strikes degenerate into wild baseball-bat strikes.

It doesn't matter whether or not Luke may have won the duel without Ben's interference. We're not arguing whether or not Luke is the superior duelist; we're arguing who had more advantages in that fight. It was clearly Luke.

Perhaps (though I consider Jacens knowledge and ability to use the environment more (demonstratably) useful), but having Ben there is not one of them given that twice Ben saved his life.

And this still doesn't change the fact that Jacen showed No provable lightsaber skill in his battle with Luke, so it really shouldn't be taken to prove that he's a wildly skilled saber-beast.

I'm sorry, I stopped reading at the part where you said this:

"Gideon, thank you for showing me the error of my ways and I submit to your glory, you sexy hunk of man meat."

Replace 'Gideon' for 'Alan Rickman' and you've got me pegged.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Replace 'Gideon' for 'Alan Rickman' and you've got me pegged.

I am the SenateAlan Rickman.

😐

I have achieved wood.

Also: Are you prepared to admit that I might be right on this one now?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I have achieved wood.

Also: Are you prepared to admit that I might be right on this one now?

Seriously? No.

The fact that Jacen managed to prepare a last second defense against Luke's surprise attack does not preclude the fact that Luke had the element of surprise.

You mention Anakin vs. Obi-Wan; Obi-Wan was a master of Soresu who was able to withstand Anakin's extreme rage; compare that to Count Dooku, who was a superior duelist and Force user than Obi-Wan and yet could not withstand Anakin's rage simply because of the mechanics of his particular form. You also reference Obi-Wan vs. Maul; it was Obi-Wan's rage that enabled him to briefly gain the upper hand against Maul before he was outmaneuvered.

Your syllogism is faulty.

Ben's intereference also crippled Jacen to the point that he could not finish the duel at all, regardless of whether or not Luke was likely to win at that point.

The bottom line is that Jacen went into the fight at a distinct disadvantage.

Maybe, maybe not, but the real bottom line is that Jacen didn't display any lightsaber skill in the fight, making it impossible to use the fight to prove he has good lightsaber skills.