What has established that as a Juyo stance? I'm not questioning whether it's the truth or not, but I am curious about the lightsaber forms. It seems that a lot of writers latched onto the concept without any regard for consistency. Such as the mention of Vaapad in Path of Destruction, Form V being called Shien in KOTOR 2 which IIRC was the first instance in which Shien was identified with Form V, and just the overall history of Form VII. Previously Shien was merely Adi Gallia's form in which she held the lightsaber like an ice pick, which Ahsoka and Starkiller also use, which it's my understanding it still is, but now it's no longer rare.
Shatterpoint seemed to suggest that there never was a Form VII until Mace invented Vaapad, but then KOTOR 2 had Juyo. I'm not sure if Juyo was mentioned before KOTOR 2.
I don't profess to be an expert of, or even very familiar with any martial arts, but it seems that the writers that do tend to use Lightsaber Forms aren't either. From the comic Jedi Mace Windu: "That move... it was a form seven maneuver. Vaapad." That just seems an odd thing to say to me, like saying a "move" is a maneuver exclusive to a specific martial art would seem odd, I suppose. I also suppose that quote also serves to illustrate how some materials set during the prequel period treat Form VII and Vaapad as synonymous, while others such as Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force, has Cin Drallig regard Juyo as Form VII, and Vaapad as distinct from that. It even seems to regard Juyo as a complete form IIRC.
Originally posted by Barringer
What has established that as a Juyo stance? I'm not questioning whether it's the truth or not, but I am curious about the lightsaber forms. It seems that a lot of writers latched onto the concept without any regard for consistency. Such as the mention of Vaapad in Path of Destruction, Form V being called Shien in KOTOR 2 which IIRC was the first instance in which Shien was identified with Form V, and just the overall history of Form VII. Previously Shien was merely Adi Gallia's form in which she held the lightsaber like an ice pick, which Ahsoka and Starkiller also use, which it's my understanding it still is, but now it's no longer rare.Shatterpoint seemed to suggest that there never was a Form VII until Mace invented Vaapad, but then KOTOR 2 had Juyo. I'm not sure if Juyo was mentioned before KOTOR 2.
I don't profess to be an expert of, or even very familiar with any martial arts, but it seems that the writers that do tend to use Lightsaber Forms aren't either. From the comic Jedi Mace Windu: "That move... it was a form seven maneuver. Vaapad." That just seems an odd thing to say to me, like saying a "move" is a maneuver exclusive to a specific martial art would seem odd, I suppose. I also suppose that quote also serves to illustrate how some materials set during the prequel period treat Form VII and Vaapad as synonymous, while others such as Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force, has Cin Drallig regard Juyo as Form VII, and Vaapad as distinct from that. It even seems to regard Juyo as a complete form IIRC.
From what I gathered Shien was supposed to be an older version of Form V. Juyo is Form VII and was associated with the Sith (an agressive style that used the dark side).
Vaapad like Juyo complements the properties of the other forms but it's used by a Jedi who revels in the fight without falling to the dark side. Juyo is also the established Form VII, ancient and used mostly by dark Jedi until Mace's Vapaad.
What has established that as a Juyo stance? I'm not questioning whether it's the truth or not, but I am curious about the lightsaber forms. It seems that a lot of writers latched onto the concept without any regard for consistency. Such as the mention of Vaapad in Path of Destruction, Form V being called Shien in KOTOR 2 which IIRC was the first instance in which Shien was identified with Form V, and just the overall history of Form VII. Previously Shien was merely Adi Gallia's form in which she held the lightsaber like an ice pick, which Ahsoka and Starkiller also use, which it's my understanding it still is, but now it's no longer rare.
You may have answered your own question in a sense. A lot of the lightsaber styles are kind of maimed in interpretation by various authors in EU since the original Fightsaber article, which, IMO, should be taken as gospel since it's the original piece of work.
I wish I had the link at the moment which details its words exactly, but I can't find it at the moment. Suffice to say that it greatly simplified what has become an incredibly complex and yet somehow vague collection of lightsaber "traits". Apparently, if you hold your lightsaber above your head like a samurai, you're a Juyo practitioner, despite the fact that Juyo is a fighting philosophy and not just a set of moves.
From what I do remember of Juyo's intents, it's a fighting style comprised of traits from most of the other major lightsaber styles and combines them with elements of unpredictability. Because of its tendency to use both the Force and one's emotions as fuel, it's a risky and reckless fighting style. Vaapad is said to "complete" Juyo, but KotOR II shows that Juyo was already used well before being completed, and folks like Darth Maul are said to be masters of Juyo, so I think there's an important distinction there. It may be more correct to think of Vaapad as an offshoot of Juyo, kind of like how Jeet Kun Do is an offshoot of various martial arts that Bruce Lee idolized. To say that Mace Windu officially completed a particular fighting style would be like saying he invented it or that he understood it better than its creators ever could; obviously Stover has no real idea of what martial arts really means besides a system of attack and defense.
I used to know the exact answer to the Shien/Djem So problem, having researched it in the past. My original conclusion was to separate them, and think of them as similar but ultimately separate styles. One focused on parrying and dueling, and another focused more on reflecting blaster fire back at the opponent. Which is which, I couldn't tell you tonight. I'd have to do it another time when I'm more awake.
Another problem I'd like to bring up is Kit Fisto's idea of "Form I". Now, The Cestus Deception is one of the better Clone Wars-era novels out there. But this bastardization of what is essentially a basic learner's form, made from basic swordsman drills from eras long before lightsabers were the norm (Which brings up an interesting question - for how long did the denizens of the SW galaxy stop using swords before lightsabers were invented? How much was kept, do you think? German and Italian swordsmen were among the most prolific in the Middle Ages, and yet their works are practiced almost nowhere today!) bothers me greatly. The "animalistic" and "unpredictable" nature of Kit's attacks could almost be Juyo, yet it seems like Steve Barnes was completely ignorant of the distinction. Or even the definition of the form he was portraying. Ultimately, the entire idea seems so out of place I've stricken it from the explanation of Shii-Cho in all my descriptions of it.
Working back to Vaapad, a lot of hot air has been built up over this lightsaber form which is never truly fleshed out properly. If Vaapad is just "Juyo plus Mace's own home-brewed recipe", what is the distinction? Where does it come into play? Riding the edge of one's emotions was always considered part of Juyo. So was being unpredictable. Does he take it to new levels? Is it inherent in his command of the rather rare "Shatterpoint" ability? Is it possible Stover didn't do any research into it before he pitched the idea? Your guess is as good as mine.
When Stover writes about Vaapad, he writes stuff like "Depa's mastery of Vaapad makes her virtually unbeatable in personal combat" which is stupid.
The problem with specific opening stances being assigned to different forms is that characters that are said to use different forms use those stances. Dooku and Anakin both use the stance you describe as a Juyo stance on Geonosis, for instance. Anakin's stance in that image is described as a Djem So stance in the AOTC Visual Dictionary. And the ROTS novelization describes Dooku's stance in that image as a Shien stance: "Skywalker brought his lightsaber to a Shien ready: hand of black-gloved durasteel cocked high at his shoulder, blade angling upward and away."
Here's a brilliant line from the Soresu article on Wookieepedia: "Rahm Kota may have also been a Soresu practicioner as it was stated that he took a defensive stance while in combat." Apparently you can't take a defensive stance if you use Juyo or Djem So. Sadly, this seems to exist in the EU, and isn't just limited to Wookieepedia.
The other issue I have with forms is that some don't make a lot of sense. The basis of Ataru seems to revolve around leaving your feet, which to my understanding is the last thing you want to do if you're fencing. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are said to use it in TPM, but they rarely leave their feet, with mostly Obi-Wan leaping. And nothing is said about the actual bladework or grip or footwork, although I suppose the "acrobatic" stuff could be considered "footwork".
Shii-cho is confusing as well, since it is derived from sword techniques, so presumably has no "blaster deflection" component like Makashi in addition to the fact that Form III: Soresu was developed in response to blasters (but then Fisto uses it to deflect blasters), but at the same time the Essential Guide to the Force says "Form I does not address lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat." What is it for, then? Attacking unarmed targets? Attacking opponents wielding swords?
Mace Windu's fighting style in the movies, to my untrained eye, looks nothing like how he is described or depicted in the EU novels and comics, respectively, and also has nothing in common with the brief period in which Maul fights with one blade, despite the original Fightsaber article claiming both use Form VII. The original article didn't apply names to the forms besides their number, and Stover seems to have ignored it by claiming Mace Windu invented it despite Maul using it as well, which I imagine necessitated the creation of Juyo.
I don't know, I just feel like lightsaber forms are really half assed. Do the Jedi really need two separate forms dedicated solely to blaster deflection (Soresu and Shien)? Nevermind that Shien is apparently also used by Anakin in the ROTS novelization while dueling Dooku to throw him off, despite what apparently has been established as Shien being the blaster deflection variant of Form V, and Djem So being the melee variant. And of course Obi-Wan using Soresu against Dooku and Grievous, despite the books describing it as blaster deflection and not addressing its use in melee. And the original Fightsaber article heavily implies that Niman is the worst form, but as a combination of most other forms, one would think it's the best.
Yeah, I agree with both you guys, lightsaber styles in star wars have some misunderstandings. For exemple, why would a lightsaber style be particulary good for duel and bad against blaster firing? I mean, what's the logic? A good lighsaber form would create mechanisms and stances who would allow to defend against blaster fire AND during dueling. I mean, it's not that a jedi will be doing both actions at the same time, as far as I remember a jedi is usually or fighting enemies with blaster or fighting enemies with a lightsaber, so why not develop a style which gives you a good defence against blaster fire and still gives you good combinations for dueling by switching stance or moves for example?
By the way, other thing that bothers me is all this bullsh*t that a style is better then other against blaster fire. As far as I know the jedi's ability do deflect it is surely based in the fact that can predict the attack with the force. In that case, their defence is purely made due to their ability to predict that attacks, due to their "jedi sense". So, how a lightsaber style can give an edge on this matter? For example, Obi-wan generally puts his lightsaber over his head. What if I just blast his feet? How this stance gives him an edge on this matter over other lightsaber stances from other lightsaber forms?
In my opinion all this concept behind lightsaber style is somehow flawed...
When Stover writes about Vaapad, he writes stuff like "Depa's mastery of Vaapad makes her virtually unbeatable in personal combat" which is stupid.
Some aspects of Stover's writing are very good. That which pertains to fighting is not always so good. If we were to take his word as gospel, Depa would be better than most swordsmen in the series.
The problem with specific opening stances being assigned to different forms is that characters that are said to use different forms use those stances. Dooku and Anakin both use the stance you describe as a Juyo stance on Geonosis, for instance. Anakin's stance in that image is described as a Djem So stance in the AOTC Visual Dictionary. And the ROTS novelization describes Dooku's stance in that image as a Shien stance: "Skywalker brought his lightsaber to a Shien ready: hand of black-gloved durasteel cocked high at his shoulder, blade angling upward and away."
Again, we should cite the misunderstanding of existing EU authors as the culprits here. Stances, while a trait of some forms (See current martial arts forms) are not indicative of the same mindset. Soresu, for example, "emphasizes reducing a combatant's target area, as opposed to some of the more far-reaching, open styles" and has a "focus on short, economical movements that provide complete coverage from incoming strikes". (Source). If someone uses a Soresu defensive posture (Which I seem to remember someone citing Kenobi's ninja stance in RotS as one) this does not automatically make them a Soresu practitioner. If the fighting mindset does not emphasize the above description, it is not truly Soresu, period. Guessing that one uses a certain style based on form alone is not a reliable method.
Also, we shouldn't assume that certain styles only have one stance, or that stances cannot be adopted to confuse or mislead the enemy. And fighting styles like Juyo and Niman are composites of many different styles, so the knowledge of "the basics" is understandable. The very description of Niman implies that before its creation, all Jedi spent a year or two studying the forms before choosing one to implement and the possibility exists that they may still do so. If this is the case, then no one can said to be truly "one style" or another.
Certainly, senior Jedi like Dooku, Cin Drallig, Anoon, Yoda, Mace, etc. all show knowledge of, if not outright proficiency in most of the existing lightsaber forms. While Niman sacrifices lightsaber training for focus on diplomacy and study, the other forms make no such sacrifices.
The other issue I have with forms is that some don't make a lot of sense. The basis of Ataru seems to revolve around leaving your feet, which to my understanding is the last thing you want to do if you're fencing. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are said to use it in TPM, but they rarely leave their feet, with mostly Obi-Wan leaping. And nothing is said about the actual bladework or grip or footwork, although I suppose the "acrobatic" stuff could be considered "footwork".
A lot of this is misconstrued from the original works. The recent incarnation of Fightsaber is mostly untouched, with only additions being thrown on just to make it more relevant to RotS. I'll quote:
The most acrobatic form of lightsaber combat. It draws upon the tight physical control of Jedi physiques and Force-assisted leaps, runs and spins. Masters of Form IV incorporate all of the ways in which the Force helps them go beyond what is physically possible. As such, it is often a marvel to behold. Qui-Gon Jinn was a practitioner of Ataru, using it to leap to advantageous positions while dueling against Darth Maul. His apprentice, Obi-Wan, followed suit. Obi-Wan's transformation of a kick to the head into a backflip to redirect the kinetic energy is a perfect example of a Form IV recovery.
Watching Yoda use Form IV is most impressive. His tiny frame and incredible leaping ability transformed him into a miniature tornado of cutting energy as he used Form IV in attempts to overwhelm Count Dooku and the Emperor's defenses. Form IV is also called the Way of the Hawkbat, or the Aggression Form. Those classically trained, like Count Dooku, dismissed Form IV as ridiculous acrobatics with exaggerated flourishes meant to mask obvious exposures of vital contact zones. Anakin's last leap over Obi-Wan in Episode III which resulted in him losing his limbs would support Dooku's assessment.
I seem to remember the original wording being a bit different in the first paragraph when the article came out. Basically, Ataru is all offensive with the use of Force-aided motion to overwhelm an opponent. Yoda is a living embodiment of the form's philosophy, and he was the original topic of discussion in the first Fightsaber (Which I was unable to find; SW.com apparently scrapped the article for this one). After watching TPM's final fightscene many many times, one of the things which struck me as stupid was the reckless abandon both Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon used in their attacks. No defense (Which, if you remember correctly, was the main reason why Obi-Wan embraced Soresu; he realized that Qui-Gons defense was nonexistent) and at one point Qui-Gon even spins completely around in order to unleash a simple swing. I seem to recall it happening more than once, but this particular instance struck me as stupid because he did it when he didn't have Obi-Wan's support.
Go have a friend spin around while you try to punch between their shoulder blades. See how many times you win. Professional fencers and fighters do not expose their backs to enemies for the simple reason of getting off a single strike. Nick Gillard thought that it looked cool, therefore he put it on-screen. Ataru is an attempt by the creator of the Visual Dictionaries and a professional fencer to rationalize this stupid blunder. That's probably why it seems to awkward.
Shii-cho is confusing as well, since it is derived from sword techniques, so presumably has no "blaster deflection" component like Makashi in addition to the fact that Form III: Soresu was developed in response to blasters (but then Fisto uses it to deflect blasters), but at the same time the Essential Guide to the Force says "Form I does not address lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat." What is it for, then? Attacking unarmed targets? Attacking opponents wielding swords?
Good points brought up here.
Firstly, any game mechanics applied to the forms through KotOR II and subsequent gaming manuals should be thrown right out of the window. ALL Jedi must learn to deflect blaster bolts as a basic part of their learning. It not only helps increase their reflexes, but it's the number one thing they'll be doing with their lightsabers to begin with. Although Soresu represents a trend in Jedi fighting (You'll notice that with the exception of Juyo, all of the lightsaber fighting styles seem to go in order from first to last created, reflecting social trends just as much as mindsets) to work to make a better defense, this just means its focus is more on being defensive than say Ataru.
No one would argue that Yoda can't deflect blaster bolts because his fighting style isn't explicitly said to be good at it. And the idea that Shii-Cho can't help one deflect blaster bolts is a serious error; the original screenshot beneath the first Fightsaber article depicting Shii-Cho showed Yoda's younglings deflecting blaster bolts from remotes. Younglings are the ones learning the basic drills, attacks and parries. This kind of thinking once made people think Dooku couldn't handle blaster bolt deflection because his fighting style was made for saber-to-saber, because apparently one cannot possibly be more than a basic description of what their style works best at.
Mace Windu's fighting style in the movies, to my untrained eye, looks nothing like how he is described or depicted in the EU novels and comics, respectively, and also has nothing in common with the brief period in which Maul fights with one blade, despite the original Fightsaber article claiming both use Form VII. The original article didn't apply names to the forms besides their number, and Stover seems to have ignored it by claiming Mace Windu invented it despite Maul using it as well, which I imagine necessitated the creation of Juyo.
You're correct on that last part. To address the former, Mace Windu's style looks nothing like what it was intended to be by Stover in RotS, mainly because Nick Gillard didn't know nor care about Vaapad. Also, GL's lamebrain decision to let the actors fight instead of the much better trained professionals made the fight look outright horrible. However, the original Fightsaber was made right after AotC, so it's understandable that Maul and Mace, both of whom don't use typical Jedi fighting styles, might be lumped into a catch-all fighting style made up at the last minute. RotS just pissed all over established EU and right in Fightsaber's ear, unfortunately.
I'm dangerously close to my word limit; the rest of my reply in a bit here.
I don't know, I just feel like lightsaber forms are really half assed. Do the Jedi really need two separate forms dedicated solely to blaster deflection (Soresu and Shien)? Nevermind that Shien is apparently also used by Anakin in the ROTS novelization while dueling Dooku to throw him off, despite what apparently has been established as Shien being the blaster deflection variant of Form V, and Djem So being the melee variant. And of course Obi-Wan using Soresu against Dooku and Grievous, despite the books describing it as blaster deflection and not addressing its use in melee. And the original Fightsaber article heavily implies that Niman is the worst form, but as a combination of most other forms, one would think it's the best.
The descriptions were basic; a ten page article complete with pics compared to what should be something better thought out. Then, the EU authors were left to maim it as best as they could. The problem is that a lot of folks were mistaking the idea that each 'form' represents one's goal in a fight.
If I'm Soresu, my goal is to minimize harm to myself, and eventually work to take the offense. However, Makashi has a similar goal. The difference lies in implementation; a Makashi expert is more of a fencer, working to keep his opponents off balance while keeping himself in the best position possible. Defense consists of an efficient and intelligent offense or redirect of oncoming attacks, versus Soresu's complete backpedaling, turtling variety. Soresu has a heavier emphasis on blaster bolt deflection being important, so it's small wonder that while all Jedi are great at deflection, Obi-Wan casually defends against rapid fire bursts at extremely close range, something we don't see very much of elsewhere. Also, Obi-Wan's mastery of Soresu allowed him to last a long time against someone who is apparently a better fighter, even in close range such as the latter half of the Mustafar duel. Also, Soresu's fighting style is less like traditional rapier fencing than Makashi, with the blade itself being kept relatively close to the body at all times.
As for Niman, it's implied to be the worst form because of its lack of specialization. Less than ten years are spent on fighting after Form I, whereas other forms continue training always. This is because Niman practitioners aren't expected to be a jack-of-all-trades fighter, but rather have the basics down so they can focus on being diplomats. They fight when they have to, but they aren't really great warriors. Juyo is probably a better representative of what a mixed lightsaber form would be, since it includes knowledge of almost every form available.
Looking back through, not all of this is very well worded. I'm a bit hungry and tired, so I apologize if I messed anything up.
Originally posted by Captain REX
Then specify. Just posting a single character is spamming.
As stated in KMC's Rules
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Nowhere in there does it say anything about posting single character posts. 🙂
Originally posted by Nactous
I'm sorry, I thought I was just answering the question, but next time I shall elaborate more in detail then.
Now, Nac. You know as well as I do that people don't like to think. You have to specify exactly what you mean so that they can wrap their little minds around it. 🙂
And for the record - making pointless posts is also considered spam. Something which Nactous has a long record of doing. And don't forget this part of the rules:
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Originally posted by Janus Marius
Some aspects of Stover's writing are very good. That which pertains to fighting is not always so good. If we were to take his word as gospel, Depa would be better than most swordsmen in the series.
Not necessarily. Remember the story was told from Mace Windu's POV. Stuff like "Depa's mastery of Vaapad makes her virtually unbeatable in personal combat" etc could be chalked up to Mace's fatherly pride clouding his judgement.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Not necessarily. Remember the story was told from Mace Windu's POV. Stuff like "Depa's mastery of Vaapad makes her virtually unbeatable in personal combat" etc could be chalked up to Mace's fatherly pride clouding his judgement.
I agree that it could reflect Windu's own thoughts, rather than the objective truth. The problem tends to be that later EU writers take it as gospel rather than a subjective belief.
