It's in an entry of "From the Private Journals of Mace Windu" in Shatterpoint, pages 26-34 of the hardcover edition.
This was a large part of Depa's argument for coming here in the first place, and why she insisted on handling it personally. Untrained Force users can be exceedingly dangerous; wild talents crop up unpredictably in such populations. Depa's mastery of Vaapad makes her virtually unbeatable in personal combat, and her own cultural training-in the elegant philosophico-mystical disciplines of the Chalactan Adepts-makes her uniquely resistant to all forms of mental manipulation, from Force-powered suggestion to brainwashing by torture.
That paragraph is on page 33 (hardcover edition). Yes, Mace Windu did write that in his journal.
Originally posted by Eminence
Oh.Even he did, though, I don't understand why you would just try to dismiss it as conjecture; Mace states outright that she surpassed him as a swordsman over a decade prior. Are people just uncomfortable with the idea of a relatively obscure EU character being good?
No, I'm uncomfortable with the line of reasoning that "mastery of Vaapad" makes someone "virtually unbeatable in personal combat". Does mastery of Shaolin Kung Fu make someone "virtually unbeatable in personal combat"? Would any legitimate martial artist ever claim that?
Originally posted by BarringerThis martial art happens to be the deadliest ever created and has only three practitioners, all of whom are master swordsmen of the highest calibre. It also requires a high-level mastery of other forms, meaning that practically every opponent they could possibly face would be both unfamiliar with their style and considerably less skilled than them.
No, I'm uncomfortable with the line of reasoning that "mastery of Vaapad" makes someone "virtually unbeatable in personal combat". Does mastery of Shaolin Kung Fu make someone "virtually unbeatable in personal combat"? Would any legitimate martial artist ever claim that?
^ That's also ignoring the fact that those three warriors are some of the best in history amongst Force-sensitives, who make up a miniscule fraction of the galactic population. With the rare exception of individuals like Durge, Jango Fett, or Grievous - none of whom would take Mace, nor presumably Depa or Sora - you pretty much need to be a Force-sensitive to even compete with another one, so that right there rules out 99.9999999[...]% of the galaxy's potential combatants.
And there's a difference between "virtually unbeatable" and "invincible." How would the overwhelming majorirty of the planet fare, one on one, against Randy Couture? You could bring up the fact that Couture isn't a purist, but then again Vaapad is an off-shoot of Juyo that requires mastery of multiple other styles to learn and master, so the case could be made that Mace, Depa, and Sora aren't necessarily purists either, as their mastery of Vaapad requires all that other stuff.
Originally posted by BarringerNo, because real world martial arts are developed by particular and unique cultures and civilizations. Kung Fu has no relation to Krav Maga. The lightsaber forms were developed by the Jedi Order and used by Jedi. Djem So is an answer to Soresu, Niman is a compilation of the forms, etc.
Are there real world martial arts that require mastery of other martial arts to be able to learn and master them?
The closest thing to this would be progression within a martial art. As in, you need a white belt to [eventually] be able to get a black belt.
Originally posted by Eminence
No, because real world martial arts are developed by particular and unique cultures and civilizations. Kung Fu has no relation to Krav Maga. The lightsaber forms were developed by the Jedi Order and used by Jedi. Djem So is an answer to Soresu, Niman is a compilation of the forms, etc.The closest thing to this would be progression within a martial art. As in, you need a white belt to [eventually] be able to get a black belt.
Well, if that's the case, why do characters choose to use "lesser forms" like Shii-Cho? I understand that Niman was the most popular at the time of the prequels (despite the fact that pretty much no named characters use it, which kind of defeats the purpose), but why don't characters that choose not to use Niman study Juyo? Why "settle" for Ataru, Shii-Cho or Djem So?
I dislike the concept that Juyo or Vaapad is a "better" form than the others, because if that were the case, everyone would want to use the better form. And those that wouldn't want to study combat to that extent would use Niman. Forms 1-5 would be obsolete (edit: for the purposes of specialization).
Edit: To clarify, for example Anakin wouldn't specialize in Djem So, he's learn it to specialize in Juyo or Vaapad.
Originally posted by BarringerMace Windu is a prodigy; he had mastered multiple forms and created and mastered Vaapad before he turned forty, and was on the Council before he was thirty. Depa Billaba was a prodigy; she had surpassed his master in the form that he created, and also ended up on the Council at a very young age. Sora Bulq is heralded as one of the greatest lightsaber instructors in history, a master of all classical and experimental forms.
Well, if that's the case, why do characters choose to use "lesser forms" like Shii-Cho? I understand that Niman was the most popular at the time of the prequels (despite the fact that pretty much no named characters use it, which kind of defeats the purpose), but why don't characters that choose not to use Niman study Juyo? Why "settle" for Ataru, Shii-Cho or Djem So?I dislike the concept that Juyo or Vaapad is a "better" form than the others, because if that were the case, everyone would want to use the better form. And those that wouldn't want to study combat to that extent would use Niman. Forms 1-5 would be obsolete (edit: for the purposes of specialization).
Edit: To clarify, for example Anakin wouldn't specialize in Djem So, he's learn it to specialize in Juyo or Vaapad.
^ That was convoluted, because I'm trying not to quote things piece by piece. Sorryz.
Those are three extremely martial Jedi. Most Jedi are, by nature, diplomats. That's why most of them practiced Niman; it required the least intensive lightsaber training, to allow focus on diplomacy. The rest of the Jedi, most of whom probably lie somewhere between the Niman crowd and the Vaapad trio as far as dedication to combat skills go, focus on a style that either enhances their strengths or covers their weaknesses. Obi-Wan took up Soresu to compensate for the lack of defense inherent in use of Ataru. Anakin took up Djem So for the sheer power it afforded him. Yoda took up Ataru for the speed and mobility, to make up for his diminutive stature.
And you seem to be forgetting that, as I said, only three people knew Vaapad; its creator, his apprentice, and the lightsaber instructor who helped refine it. Mace Windu was notoriously selective about who could and couldn't learn the form, as evidenced by both Jedi: Mace Windu and Shatterpoint. He believed that without enough mental fortitude and control, the user would be too susceptible to the pull of the dark side; Depa and Sora proved him right. Can you imagine Anakin trying to learn that form [ignoring the fact that he'd have to master multiple other forms to even qualify, and at best he was a master one]?
I suppose you're right, that is how it's laid out by the EU. I do think they've left it open for Jedi Knights other than Windu, Bulq, and Billaba to have some proficiency in Vaapad at the time of the purge, since it does make note that they're the only ones to master it, but lines imply that others do study it. To quote Yoda:
"Deadliest of all... But dangerous it is-- to its master, as well as its opponent. Few have studied. One student alone to mastery has risen."
I must admit I'm not a fan of the way Stover portrayed Windu in Shatterpoint, but I suppose it's also consistent with his portrayal in the films. I.e. he's a jerk, especially to Anakin. He seems to exude self-importance in the novel though, and I do think his assessment of Vaapad overstates how great it, and he, is.
I could see Anakin wanting to specialize in Vaapad, and Windu being a jerk and telling him no. "Go ahead and Vaapad this, you-"
I don't know, maybe I'm biased against Windu though.
Edit: The Revenge of the Sith novel does imply that Anakin is a lightsaber prodigy himself, and possibly superior to Windu. Windu says "Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger."
Ki-Adi-Mundi says "We have seen that young Skywalker has the power to battle a Sith Lord alone, if need be; he has proven that with Dooku. If he is indeed the chosen one, we must keep him in play against the Sith-keep him in a position to fulfill his destiny."
Agen Kolar says "And even if the prophecy has been misread, Anakin is the one Jedi we can best hope would survive an encounter with a Sith Lord."
Perhaps their reference to "power" refers to his aptitude with the Force, but when he defeated Dooku it wasn't with the Force.
I have to wonder if it's the mindset of Vaapad (which relies on almost falling into the Force) rather than any set moves. In Shatterpoint, you hear surprisingly little about the moves of Vaapad, with a huge emphasis on the mental aspect of the style. Whereas Soresu is identified by its actions as is Makashi and Niman, etc., Vaapad is identified more by a primal, instinctual understanding which marries with some subconscious problem-solving part of the brain. It's worth noting that Mace Windu uses the same mindset in all of his combat roles, regardless of the means, which correctly implies that Vaapad is not just a lightsaber style; it's a fighting philosophy.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
I have to wonder if it's the mindset of Vaapad (which relies on almost falling into the Force) rather than any set moves. In Shatterpoint, you hear surprisingly little about the moves of Vaapad, with a huge emphasis on the mental aspect of the style. Whereas Soresu is identified by its actions as is Makashi and Niman, etc., Vaapad is identified more by a primal, instinctual understanding which marries with some subconscious problem-solving part of the brain. It's worth noting that Mace Windu uses the same mindset in all of his combat roles, regardless of the means, which correctly implies that Vaapad is not just a lightsaber style; it's a fighting philosophy.
But he uses his reconstructed Juyo when he uses a lightsaber?