Ahmadinejad at Durban II. Racism and the Old World Order (Long)

Originally posted by inimalist
lol, let me just clarify one point. I'm not trying to defend Iran's president, any of the racial/religious practices of Iran, or even point out Israeli violations at the expense of recognizing those of Iran.

All nations have problems with race or "outgrouping" of their own citizens, all nations have problems with treating some ethnicities as second class citizens, Canada included.

My point is, rather, that the West insists that the world conform to every one of its views, including explicit rules against criticizing Israel, before it will even come to the table to discuss things. Essentially, they must be assured to get their way before they will start negotiating, and the only way to interpret this, is, that America and its western allies feel they have a justified right to control and own the planet.

My second point, as a corollary to the first, is that we actually appear immature and completely insecure with our own beliefs (which we are told, defacto, are better than those of Iran. So much better in fact that we need not even listen to Iran). We are unwilling to face accusations from other people, and thus, we essentially justify the criticism. By not debating with Ahmadinejad, we essentially prove him correct.

inimalist 👆

I would go little further and say that maybe not everyone wants Western practices. Has it occurred to anyone that there are communities and nations that do not want democracy (or whatever it is we call democracy these days)?

Fundamental changes in culture/politics of any nation, in order to be legitimate and lasting need to come from the INSIDE and the people of those countries. Not from external sources. Imposing any kind of system of government or morality on anyone is imperialistic.

Our ancestors all once lived in Autocratic and in a lot of cases excessively oppressive states but overcame and changed as years went on.
No external forces imposed democratic systems nor morality on Western countries to be the way they are now.

Who would have thought 600 years ago that one day autocracy and feudalism would not be overwhelming system of a country, that everyone would be considered equal and that it will no longer be any rulers chosen by God but by people.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Has it occurred to anyone that there are communities and nations that do not want democracy (or whatever it is we call democracy these days)?

Of course it has, but it's pretty trivial to dismiss those opinions as wrong or inconvenient.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
...I would go little further and say that maybe not everyone wants Western practices....

Like NOT killing gay people? 😉

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Of course it has, but it's pretty trivial to dismiss those opinions as wrong or inconvenient.

Disagree.

The most obnoxious is the thought that Western values and practises are superior and to question or reject them is savage and wrong.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Like NOT killing gay people? 😉

Oh right, because West is renown for its long and faithful tradition of nurturing different sexualities, races and religions.
Anglo-American empire has been so good to everything and everyone different, it has now earned the right to tell everyone else what they should do.

Is the West (ie Ameria) perfect? Obviously no, but someone has to put the barbarians in their place.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Oh right, because West is renown for its long and faithful tradition of nurturing different sexualities, races and religions.
Anglo-American empire has been so good to everything and everyone different, it has now earned the right to tell everyone else what they should do.

Try to get beyond the single issue and look at the big picture. Ahmadinejad is person who said that his country has no gay people. What he did not say was the reason. They kill them. How is this like Hitler?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Try to get beyond the single issue and look at the big picture. Ahmadinejad is person who said that his country has no gay people. What he did not say was the reason. They kill them. How is this like Hitler?

They still have gay people. It's just that they officially deny it and no one's willing to come out. Some Maasai tribes make the same claim.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
They still have gay people. It's just that they officially deny it and no one's willing to come out. Some Maasai tribes make the same claim.

Iran has publicly executed homosexuals, iirc.

They also hang women who commit adultery.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Try to get beyond the single issue and look at the big picture. Ahmadinejad is person who said that his country has no gay people. What he did not say was the reason. They kill them. How is this like Hitler?

You're the one bringing up a single issue. My post was talking about system of government and change, not Iran or Ahmadinejad and gay people, since everyone went ape shit on inimalist for the article above.

When Iranians had civilisation, Westerners were still savages. Not to mention that it was Iranians who came up with the first bill of Human Rights and equality for all.
Due to their turbulent history, beginning from savage Arab invasions, conversions and murder of Iranians, through to foreign interventionism, Iran is where it is now.
And I have no doubt in time it will restore the level of civilisation they once lead.

Change comes from the people, not from greedy ass imperialist who have convinced themselves they're superior to everything and everyone else.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
They still have gay people. It's just that they officially deny it and no one's willing to come out. Some Maasai tribes make the same claim.

And anyone who claims that they have no gays in their community is a moron. Such claims are not even worth discussing.

Originally posted by Robtard
Iran has publicly executed homosexuals, iirc.

They also hang women who commit adultery.

Executing gays doesn't eliminate gays. More are being born all the time (or alternately some douche is always choosing man-sex for fun).

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Executing gays doesn't eliminate gays. More are being born all the time (or alternately some douche is always choosing man-sex for fun).

Wasn't implying that.

In regards to Ahmadinejad, he said that as a way to avoid the "your country hangs gays" accusation, not that he actualyl believes Iran doesn't produce homos.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
You're the one bringing up a single issue. My post was talking about system of government and change, not Iran or Ahmadinejad and gay people, since everyone went ape shit on inimalist for the article above.

When Iranians had civilisation, Westerners were still savages. Not to mention that it was Iranians who came up with the first bill of Human Rights and equality for all.
Due to their turbulent history, beginning from savage Arab invasions, conversions and murder of Iranians, through to foreign interventionism, Iran is where it is now.
And I have no doubt in time it will restore the level of civilisation they once lead.

Change comes from the people, not from greedy ass imperialist who have convinced themselves they're superior to everything and everyone else.

I know my history.

Making any apology for an extremist is wrong regardless of any circumstance.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Making any apology for an extremist is wrong regardless of any circumstance.

We all know that isn't true.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
We all know that isn't true.

Exactly. On more levels than one.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
We all know that isn't true.

I reject all extremism. I believe it leads to suffering.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I reject all extremism. I believe it leads to suffering.

Think about that statement and be enlightened.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
While I'll agree, that is not racial problem though, but a religious one. It is problem nontheless considering that Baha'i people do pay with their lives.

Originally posted by inimalist
lol, let me just clarify one point. I'm not trying to defend Iran's president, any of the racial/religious practices of Iran, or even point out Israeli violations at the expense of recognizing those of Iran.

All nations have problems with race or "outgrouping" of their own citizens, all nations have problems with treating some ethnicities as second class citizens, Canada included.

My point is, rather, that the West insists that the world conform to every one of its views, including explicit rules against criticizing Israel, before it will even come to the table to discuss things. Essentially, they must be assured to get their way before they will start negotiating, and the only way to interpret this, is, that America and its western allies feel they have a justified right to control and own the planet.

My second point, as a corollary to the first, is that we actually appear immature and completely insecure with our own beliefs (which we are told, defacto, are better than those of Iran. So much better in fact that we need not even listen to Iran). We are unwilling to face accusations from other people, and thus, we essentially justify the criticism. By not debating with Ahmadinejad, we essentially prove him correct.

I understood your point, and I agreed with it. The US (along with all of its little minions) is indeed being small-minded and incredibly unfair. My point was simply that given some of the arguments Ahmadinejad used in his speech against Western and Israeli imperialism (I use the word liberally, though perhaps not so liberally when it comes to Israel), it seemed kind of ironic and on the brink of hypocrisy given his government's ambivalent responses to the treatment of people of the Baha'i faith.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Think about that statement and be enlightened.

To explain would be off topic. Ketch me another time.