Nihilus is absurdly powerful. Sion is not. Proficiency in one particular area does not make one proficient in all aspects; and that goes for anything. There's a fine line between a savant and a genius. Sion, for all intents and purposes, is a savant: notable skill in only one particular form.
Sion's invulnerability isn't absolute, either. He combines his powerful will with the dark energies of environments strong in the dark side. That's it. Not to mention that his will is capable of being broken; two glaring deficits and means by which an enemy can defeat him.
And as far as him surviving as a spirit, that isn't likely. There are only a handful of Dark Lords of the Sith to do it; powerful spirits like Kun and Ragnos required artifacts and locations to anchor themselves. Only Palpatine survived as a spirit without the same limitation.
Yeah, it says something that Sion has one thing going for him that's really just a gameplay mechanic of 'regenerating hit points'
Behead him, incinerate him, disable him, or block him from the force? Victory.
Sion's a one trick pony and apparently most of what he does is due to being an assassin. IE: Someone who strikes from the shadows.
Originally posted by Gideon
And as far as him surviving as a spirit, that isn't likely. There are only a handful of Dark Lords of the Sith to do it; powerful spirits like Kun and Ragnos required artifacts and locations to anchor themselves. Only Palpatine survived as a spirit without the same limitation. [/B]
What about Nadd?
Originally posted by Gideon
Shatterpoint, as defined by the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, P-Z, page 144:Meanwhile, the Revenge of the Sith novelization (page 146) gives us the following passage on the shatterpoint charism:
This does not come close to describing the shatterpoint charism as we know it. It's a complete generalization; Bane using Force perception to seek out an enemy's weakness does not constitute the same ability as used by Mace Windu or Darth Caedus; to compare these two passages and these two abilities is like comparing the amulet blasts of Exar Kun to the Force lightning of Darth Sidious. Generalized, they are nearly identical: both are blasts of energy emitted from hands capable of killing enemies; in reality, they are both completely different techniques.
There's nothing conclusive to suggest that they are the same.
The difference being that energy can take a number of different shapes and forms whereas detecting weak points using supernatural perceptions is of a far more singular nature and can only really manifest itself in one manner. It wasn't a generalisation as far as the knowledge I possessed at hand and the knowledge that had been presented to me, and it would appear that the RotS novelisation expands on the ability more so than the very book named after the technique which was where I was getting my information was, where Mace simply describes the technique as being able to identify the weak spots of people and situations.
And even if one were to contend that they are, the logical conclusion is that Bane is not remotely as advanced compared to Mace Windu.
Would you mind expanding on that? While Mace would almost definitely possess a more intuitive grasp of the technique and greater familiarity with it, Bane on the other hand has displayed a level of Force perception several lightyears beyond what Mace Windu has; he's demonstrated an absolutely unparalleled level of precision with his subatomic alterations, and a level of power completely beyond anything Mace has demonstrated with his planetary scale perceptions. While it's almost definite that the technique would come more quickly and naturally to Mace Windu, if Bane were to actively use the technique with his demonstrated level of control and power over his perceptions - what essentially powers the Shatterpoint technique, it's arguable that he'd be capable of producing greater results with the technique.
Damn, REX is getting uber-quick. What is this? "The Quick and the Banned?"
Originally posted by The Ground
How do you disable him?
Immobilize him with telekinesis, perhaps? I'd be willing to entertain evidence that Sion is some prodigious user of the Force in all aspects, but there's nothing that remotely suggests that. There are several individuals who, based on achievement, feat, and narration, are more than capable of manhandling Sion within the context of a duel. He's at best, Hugh Jackman's Wolverine with a glowing stick. The only difference is that Wolverine's healing factor is absolute. You saw the X-Men movies, yes? The fact that Wolverine can take more punishment than most mutants does not, in any way, shape, or form, suggest that he is more powerful or more dangerous; hence why the sixty-something year old zealot that is Magneto is more than capable of kicking his ass up and down whatever continent they happen to be on.
Weird analogy, I know, since mutation =/= the Force, but you get my point.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
What about Nadd?
Wasn't he imprisoned on Onderon or Dxun or some such?
Originally posted by Nebaris
The difference being that energy can take a number of different shapes and forms whereas detecting weak points using supernatural perceptions is of a far more singular nature and can only really manifest itself in one manner. It wasn't a generalisation as far as the knowledge I possessed at hand and the knowledge that had been presented to me, and it would appear that the RotS novelisation expands on the ability more so than the very book named after the technique which was where I was getting my information was, where Mace simply describes the technique as being able to identify the weak spots of people and situations.
That's not the case at all. Utilizing supernature perceptions is a manipulation of energy, Nebaris; manipulating Force energy to assess the weaknesses of individuals, objects, and circumstances; it's not independent of the Force. The description that you provided doesn't suggest that the technique Bane was using was anything approaching the shatterpoint charism; attempting to use the Force to detect weakness is not necessarily the same technique, anymore than amulet blasts are identical in scope, size, magnitude, and function to your standard Force lightning.
Would you mind expanding on that? While Mace would almost definitely possess a more intuitive grasp of the technique and greater familiarity with it, Bane on the other hand has displayed a level of Force perception several lightyears beyond what Mace Windu has; he's demonstrated an absolutely unparalleled level of precision with his subatomic alterations, and a level of power completely beyond anything Mace has demonstrated with his planetary scale perceptions. While it's almost definite that the technique would come more quickly and naturally to Mace Windu, if Bane were to actively use the technique with his demonstrated level of control and power over his perceptions - what essentially powers the Shatterpoint technique, it's arguable that he'd be capable of producing greater results with the technique.
There is no indication that the perceptions you mention in terms of Bane's destructive application of Force power are the same as those used for the shatterpoint charism. Yoda, for example, is regarded by numerous sources as "the most powerful" and "most perceptive", not to mention the most experienced, of the Jedi, yet there's no indication that he has any inkling or understanding of the shatterpoint charism; indeed, it seems to be something that Mace Windu alone demonstrates, discusses, and heavily implies that it is a rarity amongst Jedi, referring to it as "his power."
The fact that Bane is stronger in the Force than Mace or more perceptive does not suggest that he could produce greater results.
His user comments are getting more hurtful every ban.
Originally posted by Gideon
[B]That's not the case at all. Utilizing supernature perceptions is a manipulation of energy, Nebaris; manipulating Force energy to assess the weaknesses of individuals, objects, and circumstances; it's not independent of the Force.
Actually, the manner in which Jedi "feel" the Force, isn't at all a manipulation of energy but rather simply a method of recognising and understanding it. Not to mention, I was speaking about the end result of the techniques and what they provide the wielder, not the manner in which they are generated. Using the Force to feel for weaknesses, as far as end product goes, can only really take one shape or form, though as it seems Shatterpoint appears to be beyond that based on the passage you presented from the RotS novel.
The description that you provided doesn't suggest that the technique Bane was using was anything approaching the shatterpoint charism; attempting to use the Force to detect weakness is not necessarily the same technique, anymore than amulet blasts are identical in scope, size, magnitude, and function to your standard Force lightning.
There is no indication that the perceptions you mention in terms of Bane's destructive application of Force power are the same as those used for the shatterpoint charism.
Those very perceptions are one of the two fundamental ways in which Jedi use the Force for everything. When you break down a Jedi's abilities to their very core, you're left with their ability to "feel" the Force, and their ability to manipulate it. The Shatterpoint technique is no different, Mace needs to be able to perceive the Force to recognise and understand all that Shatterpoint tells him, just like Bane needed to be able to apply his powers on the scales that he did in such a controlled manner. This is beyond differing techniques, this is simply how a Jedi's powers work.
Yoda, for example, is regarded by numerous sources as "the most powerful" and "most perceptive", not to mention the most experienced, of the Jedi, yet there's no indication that he has any inkling or understanding of the shatterpoint charism;
1. The word "perceptive" is more often than not used to describe a person's judge of character and ability to read people's actions. It wouldn't necessarily be a reference to Yoda's Force perceptions.
2. If Yoda really did have no understanding of the technique, than all those qualities you mentioned become meaningless as he wouldn't be in a position to apply them.
3. Let's be real here, Yoda is not Darth Bane; he has not demonstrated such a level of either control or strength over his Force perceptions that would put him at such an advantage over Mace, and as such there wouldn't be any reason in his case to debate whether his ability with the Shatterpoint technique was as great as Mace's despite the latter's vastly superior innate ability and familiarity with the technique.
Whose comments?
Actually, the manner in which Jedi "feel" the Force, isn't at all a manipulation of energy but rather simply a method of recognising and understanding it. Not to mention, I was speaking about the end result of the techniques and what they provide the wielder, not the manner in which they are generated. Using the Force to feel for weaknesses, as far as end product goes, can only really take one shape or form, though as it seems Shatterpoint appears to be beyond that based on the passage you presented from the RotS novel.
But using the Force to detect weaknesses is a manipulation of the Force itself, Nebaris. And the Force is energy so, logically, my analogy still applies. There is no conclusive evidence, once again, that suggests that Bane's rudimentary assessment of his opponent's weaknesses is the same as Mace Windu's impressive command of the shatterpoint charism; and remember: shatterpoints are more than just your average weakness.
And as for Yoda, LoE and RotS make references to his sensitivity to the Force and supernatural perception; it's beyond the assessment of people, lol.