Completed Palpatine Essay

Originally posted by Gideon
A weak Leia?

Define “weak.” Leia Organa Solo possesses a connection to the Force that, during the events of Shadows of the Empire, was mistaken for Luke’s own by Darth Vader himself. Indeed, during Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor, former Emperor’s Hand Cronal—who hatched an elaborate plot to possess Luke’s body—sees her as someone with more potential than Kar Vastor himself.

If by “weak,” you mean that she is relatively ignorant of Force techniques and proper combat disciplines, I’d agree. But her latent energies are what mattered; and she has those in abundance.
Most importantly, understand that Luke only defeated Palpatine in a lightsaber duel. It was a legitimate victory, but let’s look at the facts: the last known duel prior to that one was when Palpatine was freshly revived on Byss, where he defeated Luke. Prior to that, it had been over thirty years.

That’s more or less as impressive as Vader beating an out-of-practice Obi-Wan in A New Hope. When it came down to the important fight, the Force one, it required the connection of Luke, Leia, and Anakin in what the Dark Empire Sourcebook describes as Force Harmony—where they “manifest[ed] the power of the Light.” And even that wasn’t a victory insomuch as it disrupted Palpatine’s control of the Force Storm; they essentially had him kill himself. As Tionne Solusar notes in the Essential Guide to the Force, Luke “realized he couldn’t defeat Palpatine alone.”

Not in a fair fight, anyway.

And as far as TUF Luke goes, I’ve been through this with Nai. All of Luke’s feats during that book—the butchering of the Yuuzhan Vong army, the defeat of the Slayers, the death of Shimrra—was, according to the Essential Guide to the Force , a product of a battlemeld between Jaina and Jacen and Luke, with Luke being the focal point and beneficiary of most of the power upgrades. Based on evidence? He couldn’t defeat Palpatine.

Even as of Outcast, Luke struggles to take down a random monk.
Sorry, but the facts aren’t with you on this one.

by weak i meant lack of force knowledge and use. I mean leia does have innate power equal to Lukes since they are twins.

as for TUF and the battle meld I argued against it in project holorcron but you didn't answer to my post do you want me to re post it?

when it comes to outcast you and just have different interpretations and your neither of our views is cannon so i think that point is moot.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
by weak i meant lack of force knowledge and use. I mean leia does have innate power equal to Lukes since they are twins.

And neither knowledge nor "use" were required in either the battle meditation or the Force Harmony; innate power, on the other hand, was. So I'm not certain what you're trying to prove here.

as for TUF and the battle meld I argued against it in project holorcron but you didn't answer to my post do you want me to re post it?

Feel free.

But I'm not sure what good it will do you. The Essential Guide to the Force makes it very clear that they were using battle meld. It wasn't a suggestion, implication, or an alternate theory. It's fact.

when it comes to outcast you and just have different interpretations and your neither of our views is cannon so i think that point is moot.

The interpretation is pretty straightforward: the Hidden One was a random, unestablished monk who spent his years isolated on a heap of rock. While that doesn't necessarily make him weak, he had neither the resources nor the Force aptitude to, on paper, be a threat to someone of Luke Skywalker's caliber. Regardless of what you want to think, Luke did struggle with defeating the Hidden One. Was it a pitched battle and could have gone either way? Probably not. But that doesn't mean that Luke didn't have difficulty.

I don't know Gideon. I read Outcast and while it seemed that luke struggled for a brief moment, he had absolutely no intention to harm, nor did it seem like he was even close to going all out. So while you keep saying he had difficulty, it doesn't represent his superiority in a negative light. Not to mention the monk's abilities were considerable.

But this is speculation, DS. Once again, it's not my contention that the battle was close; Poppunker is right. But Luke did struggle.

"The strength of the attack, of the Hidden One's energy and anger, took Luke off his feet and threw him backward. He slammed into a pillar, feeling jolts of pain in his spine and the back of his head."

Note that this is when he was prepared for the coming assault and had his lightsaber at the ready; the Hidden One was powerful enough to hurl Luke back. In fact, the only time that Luke is able to move is after such statements as "And, bracing himself with the Force," and "Luke gritted his teeth and rooted himself," and, most telling, "It was slow going, for the Hidden One's power was great."

He had to root and brace himself with the Force, even with the assistance of a lightsaber, and the gritted teeth is indication that he struggled.

Originally posted by Gideon
And neither knowledge nor "use" were required in either the battle meditation or the Force Harmony; innate power, on the other hand, was. So I'm not certain what you're trying to prove here.

Feel free.

But I'm not sure what good it will do you. The Essential Guide to the Force makes it very clear that they were using battle meld. It wasn't a suggestion, implication, or an alternate theory. It's fact.

The interpretation is pretty straightforward: the Hidden One was a random, unestablished monk who spent his years isolated on a heap of rock. While that doesn't necessarily make him weak, he had neither the resources nor the Force aptitude to, on paper, be a threat to someone of Luke Skywalker's caliber. Regardless of what you want to think, Luke did struggle with defeating the Hidden One. Was it a pitched battle and could have gone either way? Probably not. But that doesn't mean that Luke didn't have difficulty.

I know they were using BMeld im trying to say they weren't. and innate power=/= battle meditation or the force harmony thing.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
I know they were using BMeld im trying to say they weren't.

Eh?

and innate power=/= battle meditation or the force harmony thing.

Eh?

Originally posted by Gideon
But this is speculation, DS. Once again, it's not my contention that the battle was close; Poppunker is right. But Luke did struggle.

"The strength of the attack, of the Hidden One's energy and anger, took Luke off his feet and threw him backward. He slammed into a pillar, feeling jolts of pain in his spine and the back of his head."

Note that this is when he was prepared for the coming assault and had his lightsaber at the ready; the Hidden One was powerful enough to hurl Luke back. In fact, the only time that Luke is able to move is after such statements as "And, bracing himself with the Force," and "Luke gritted his teeth and rooted himself," and, most telling, "It was slow going, for the Hidden One's power was great."

He had to root and brace himself with the Force, even with the assistance of a lightsaber, and the gritted teeth is indication that he struggled.

I'm not arguing that he struggled, but it seems that your contention is that BECAUSE he struggled, he's not as powerful as everyone believes. IF I am right and that is your contention which I hope it's not, it's not a very good one. First you'd have to judge the quality of the opponent, and then you'd have to judge the intensity with which Luke was fighting.

Eh?

My contention is that Luke struggled. Not to win the fight, but to withstand the Hidden One's attacks. There's a difference. Of course he could have won the fight with (presumably) relative ease; but what on Earth makes you suggest that he was "holding back" from defending himself? I get not going on the offensive; but he should have been more than capable of overpowering the Hidden One's attacks with more ease than what he showed.

Hey Gideon, are you sure Jacen was part of the meld during Luke's ascension? Because i recall that during the battle to shimrra's lair Jacen was in vongsense mode. And Jacen attributed his uncle's remarkable feat to "Luke's control".

Originally posted by Fan Skywalker
Hey Gideon, are you sure Jacen was part of the meld during Luke's ascension? Because i recall that during the battle to shimrra's lair Jacen was in vongsense mode. And Jacen attributed his uncle's remarkable feat to "Luke's control".

Yep, promise.

Originally posted by Gideon
Eh?

My contention is that Luke struggled. Not to win the fight, but to withstand the Hidden One's attacks. There's a difference. Of course he could have won the fight with (presumably) relative ease; but what on Earth makes you suggest that he was "holding back" from defending himself? I get not going on the offensive; but he should have been more than capable of overpowering the Hidden One's attacks with more ease than what he showed.

I didn't "suggest" anything, I was just offering alternate explanations that are just as sound as yours. What makes you think he was going all out, or had an intention to harm? And again, you don't know the circumstances surrounding the Hidden One's power, so you can't really make that assessment.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I didn't "suggest" anything, I was just offering alternate explanations that are just as sound as yours. What makes you think he was going all out, or had an intention to harm? And again, you don't know the circumstances surrounding the Hidden One's power, so you can't really make that assessment.

😐

I... am not... saying that Luke was going all out or had the intention to harm him...

I am asking how any of that would effect Luke's defense? The fact that he did not go all out doesn't mean that he would not try his hardest to overcome the Hidden One's attacks; he'd just pull his own punches.

Luke's defense struggled with the Hidden One's offense. That's the point.

Originally posted by Gideon
😐

I... am not... saying that Luke was going all out or had the intention to harm him...

I am asking how any of that would effect Luke's defense? The fact that he did not go all out doesn't mean that he would not try his hardest to overcome the Hidden One's attacks; he'd just pull his own punches.

Luke's defense struggled with the Hidden One's offense. That's the point.

But that's obvious. It appeared that you were using that as a way to state that Luke's abilities are somehow exaggerated. we know he struggled but we don't know the specific details, nor the power level of the Hidden One. All that would be useful knowledge to determine if Luke's skills are decreasing.

Gideon
All of Luke’s feats during that book—the butchering of the Yuuzhan Vong army, the defeat of the Slayers, the death of Shimrra—was, according to the Essential Guide to the Force, a product of a battlemeld between Jaina and Jacen and Luke,

[Jaina's] eyelids fluttered, and sounds grew indistinct. One thought kept repeating itself in her mind as she slipped into the blackest of voids.

Jacen knew that her exit had been prompted by something she had perceived through the Force, but he and Luke could have used her lightsaber now.

The Supreme Overlord [...] was clearly able to control objects in his immediate environment without need of the dhuryam.

The slayers, for one thing.

Where initially they had been moving with individual vigilance and of their own accord, they were now moving as coralskippers did under the control of a battle coordinator. The change had come simultaneously with Shimrra's rising from the throne, and the escape of his Shamed One companion, whom Jaina had pursued into the summit of the Citadel.

[...]

Three slayers had Jacen backed to the bunker's outer wall. [...] Across the room Shimrra was moving stiffly toward Luke, who was being set upon by four warriors.

The enormous Vong overlord stepped across the moat as if crossing a final line. Seemingly entranced-in sway of the Yuuzhan Vong gods-he fixed his glowing eye implants on his prey. He held the thick-bodied amphistaff diagonally in front of him, with his giant left hand closed around the middle of the weapon's three-meter-long body.

Jacen sent a warning to his uncle through the Force, which Luke acknowledged-not only through the Force but also by spinning away from the warriors to provide himself with enough fighting room to confront Shimrra. Whirling through a cartwheel, Luke caught one of the warriors on the chin with the heels of his boots, unbalancing him enough so that Luke could get inside the arm that held the amphistaff and drive his lightsaber through the warrior's neck. As he quickly withdrew the blade, a second warrior was ready to pounce; Luke stretched out his left hand and impaled the slayer through the right eye.

At once the other two converged on him, battering him with their amphistaffs and coufees, opening ragged wounds in his upper arms and chest.

Then there's this:

The bunker inclined, sending Jacen directly toward Shimrra. Without thinking-and without his lightsaber-he lunged for the neck of the towering Yuuzhan Vong. But Shimrra perceived Jacen's intent, and threw his mighty right arm behind him. Jacen was hit squarely in the center of the chest. Dropping to the floor, he blacked out.

When he came to an instant later, he saw that Luke had obviously intercepted Shimrra's follow-up blow.

[...]

Feeling his uncle's suffocation in his own crushed chest, Jacen summoned his strength and crawled frantically for his lightsaber. Calling it to his right hand, he sent it hurtling through the air at Shimrra's head. The Supreme Overlord raised his left hand in a parry; then, with Jacen's lightsaber spinning off toward the throne, he reached into the folds of his hide cape-and extracted a lightsaber!

[...]

Jacen was too stunned to respond; too disheartened to move.

[...]

Through his Vongsense, Jacen could feel Shimrra's astonishment and dismay. In a motion almost too swift for Jacen's eyes to follow, Luke slit the throat of Shimrra's amphistaff.

Gideon
with Luke being the focal point and beneficiary of most of the power upgrades.

Originally posted by Gideon
Eh?

Eh?

wow i just read my post not what i meant at all i know they were using bmeld im going to try and disprove a canon fact

and i'll post stuff in like an hour or two when im not so busy

Originally posted by Gideon
Conclusions

His knowledge has exceeded that of any other source, including the likes of Yoda, Odan-Urr, and Traya. His expertise in lightsaber combat has placed him on par with the veritable giants such as Luke Skywalker, Mace Windu, and Yoda. His command of the Force in terms of feats and combat prowess is, overall, in excess of any character; only in certain aspects does he have rivals; such as Luke Skywalker and Darth Nihilus. The conclusion of this piece is that an objective, proper accounting of the evidence yields only one result: Darth Sidious is the most powerful and accomplished Force user within the entire mythos.

...

Finally got around to finishing it and I thought I'd post it here. Whew. Excuse the cosmetic issues; the lack of italics and bolded remarks for emphasis, but I couldn't be bothered to put them back in.

12 pages, single spaced, and 6,328 words.

Nice read Gideon. I enjoyed that. What was it initially for if not for this board?

Originally posted by Gideon
Darkness Beyond Darkness
An analysis of the power of Emperor Palpatine
By: Gideon (Escape81)

Perceptions of the character of Palpatine have changed enormously throughout the past four years. At one time, the popular perception was that he was among the weakest of the Sith Lords in the mythos. As the years went on, Palpatine began to climb the ranks of strength and skill in the public’s eye until, as of 2009, many believe that he is the most powerful dark side practitioner in the whole of Star Wars canon. The quotes, accolades, and achievements to Palpatine’s name have long been researched and discovered by Publius, Lightsnake, and myself, but given the controversy of certain individuals (read: Nebaris and Janus) still questioning Palpatine’s place in the hierarchy of Force users, I have decided to draft a comprehensive essay of the character’s many strengths relative to Force use and combat. Hopefully, by the end, the reader will be convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that Emperor Palpatine is not just the most powerful Sith Lord in the mythos, but the most powerful Force user in general, bar none.
Special thanks to Stardestroyer.net members Publius and Illuminatus Primus, KMC members Faunus, Darth Sexy, Elite Hunter, Enyalus, and Captain Valerian for scholarly example and Lightsnake for changing a forum.

Valerian for scholarly example? Seriosuly?

Originally posted by jaden101
Nice read Gideon. I enjoyed that. What was it initially for if not for this board?

hehehe... it's you. Sir Strawman.

A nice read Gid. You should ask Ush to sticky this thread for newcomers etc, so that you don't constantly need to repeat yourself.