Completed Palpatine Essay · Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe

Dr McBeefington Restricted

Originally posted by Gideon
You're missing the point, DS. If you and I happened to be in a fight, and I preferred to leave you relatively unharmed, I would logically not employ a ruthless offense. If you shove me into a wall and I am trying to overpower the force you're applying, however, I would have no reason to not try as hard as I could to keep you from killing me; Luke's defense struggled immensely with the Hidden One's offense; he was forced to exert himself and rely heavily on the Force, which suggests that he was not leagues above the Hidden One, who, again, is a random monk.

And my contention is that the random monk has considerable power which he showed, and if Luke DID go all out like he did against Jacen or Palpatine, he wouldn't have much issue with this monk, regardless of his strength. It's like the Yoda and Dooku fights.

Eminence Boss

Originally posted by Gideon
I’m not certain what there is to respond to; the point remains the same: all of Luke Skywalker’s purported “uber feats!” during the Unifying Force are the product of a battle meld with Jaina and Jacen Solo.

My point was that you were being very, very vague. I'm filling in the blanks.

Battle meld enhances coordination to an unprecedented level and allows for each of the Jedi involved to draw on the reserves and strengths of the others; given that the three have Skywalker genetics within them, which is noted by multiple sources to be a high tier of Force energy, it’s no wonder how casually they were able to accost Shimrra’s soldiers on their way to the Overlord himself.

Where is the battle meld noted to draw directly on the reserves of its participants, bypassing controlling factors like mastery and experience? It seems that if that were the case, the battle meld initiated by Anakin, Jacen, and Jaina would've been nearly or possibly more powerful than that used by Luke and the twins.

You point out that Jaina was rendered unconscious. She was the weakest of the three, and a battle meld can still be applied with two (as you have acknowledged and provided evidence for).

Yes, and you never actually noted that in your many references to the scene as a whole.

As far as the Vong’s coordination is concerned, you haven’t the slightest possible means to quantify it and compare it to the high level of the Jedi battle meld,

I was comparing the heightened coordination afforded by a newfound source of unity - Shimrra and the dhuryam - to that which the battle meld grants the Jedi, not the potency of one versus the other.

The ultimate point of this was to show that nothing Luke demonstrates throughout this fight—and I mean nothing—remotely suggests he could defeat someone of Palpatine’s caliber.

Not what I was arguing.

Gideon Restricted

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
And my contention is that the random monk has considerable power which he showed, and if Luke DID go all out like he did against Jacen or Palpatine, he wouldn't have much issue with this monk, regardless of his strength. It's like the Yoda and Dooku fights.

Random monk with "considerable power" =/= Palpatine, which is the ultimate point. We're arguing defense, not offense.

Eminence Boss

Originally posted by Gideon
I have just consulted the guide and it states the following:
“Indeed, the battle-meld was an advantage the enemy [the Yuuzhan Vong] couldn’t match.”
I think we can safely say then, that not only does it provide a colossal advantage to the combatants involved, but the coordination between the Slayers and Shimrra isn’t favorably comparable.

See above. I was noting the general similarities of the two in an offhand manner, not arguing that Shimrra and the dhuryam made the slayers as coordinated as the battle meld did the Jedi.

And, some good news for you…
“[…]but if the individuals [in the battle-meld] aren’t in complete agreement, the meld can swiftly fall apart.”
You could argue that the meld did fall apart, but ‘complete agreement’ is rather vague; it doesn’t have to necessarily be physical agreement. The fact that Jacen was able to feel Luke’s pain suggests the meld, however damaged, was still intact.

Damage (i.e. one of two contributors to the meld being knocked senseless) would certainly reduce the power of the meld. This is what I was establishing; that, contrary to what your statements implied, the battle meld was not in full effect for the duration of the battle.

Alas, with good news, there is always bad news…
“[…]Luke Skywalker noted that the strength of the battle-meld with Jaina and Jacen solo was such that the three might have been sharing the same mind, and that mind was the Force itself.”
The inference clearly being that the battle-meld between them was one of particular strength.

Which in no way means that it wouldn't suffer considerably when Jaina and at least momentarily, Jacen, were removed from it. In fact, assuming [my understanding of] your interpretation of the meld is correct and it draws directly upon Force reserves, giving no heed to other factors, the blow dealt to the battle meld by Jaina's exit would be tremendously greater than it would be if my interpretation is correct and the meld yields benefits proportional to the overall ability of its contributors.

And I need you to clarify this for me:

with Luke being the focal point and beneficiary of most of the power upgrades.

I may be misinterpreting that phrase, but is your contention that Luke benefited the most from the meld, as in he gained more from it than Jacen or Jaina did?

Dr McBeefington Restricted

Originally posted by Gideon
Random monk with "considerable power" =/= Palpatine, which is the ultimate point. We're arguing defense, not offense.

I was never arguing defense, offense, or palpatine. If that's what you believe then either I didn't make myself clear, or you misread somewhere.

I only posted in respond to what I thought was a miniscule, yet somewhat obvious attack on Luke's Skywalker's perceived power, based on his fight with the monk. Now if your contention is only that he struggled, I concur, and wouldn't debate that. But if your contention is what I think it HAS been all of this time; that Luke's abilities are somehow exaggerated because he struggled with what you call a random monk, then I have to jump in and respond with what I've been responding.

1. Luke was NOT going all out, NOR was he trying to kill, so him struggling has no bearing on his actual power, had he gone all out like he did against Jacen.
2. Judging from the fight, it seems that this random monk is anything but a regular or average force user, but someone with considerable power(albeit nowhere near Palpatine).

Eminence Boss

Originally posted by Edge Maverick
Spoiler:
Seriously.
Darth Sexy appears to be the vastly more learned of the two of them in information relating to that which Gideon's essay was covering; he has displayed extensive knowledge relating to the SW mythologies on multiple events throughout the timeline; has been at the forum for far longer and by extension been picking up information for a far longer amount of time; has demonstrated a vast familiarity with multiple sources, and outside of the SW related topics, has demonstrated a solid level of knowledge and understanding relating to subjects such as politics, religion and economics, regardless of how flawed it may be in some cases. So yes, I would say Valerian's name was easily more out of place there.

Who might you be?

Gideon Restricted

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I was never arguing defense, offense, or palpatine. If that's what you believe then either I didn't make myself clear, or you misread somewhere.
I only posted in respond to what I thought was a miniscule, yet somewhat obvious attack on Luke's Skywalker's perceived power, based on his fight with the monk. Now if your contention is only that he struggled, I concur, and wouldn't debate that. But if your contention is what I think it HAS been all of this time; that Luke's abilities are somehow exaggerated because he struggled with what you call a random monk, then I have to jump in and respond with what I've been responding.
1. Luke was NOT going all out, NOR was he trying to kill, so him struggling has no bearing on his actual power, had he gone all out like he did against Jacen.
2. Judging from the fight, it seems that this random monk is anything but a regular or average force user, but someone with considerable power(albeit nowhere near Palpatine).

I don’t think you’re following.

Luke Skywalker has, as Nebaris noted, dealt with UnuThul with moderate ease—and this is a being that harnessed an unbelievable source of Force power in the form of the Colony. Meanwhile, here, he struggles with the power of a random monk who does not possess the same reserves. You pointed out that Skywalker was likely not trying to kill the Hidden One, which I acknowledged, but that isn’t the point; the point is that his defense—resisting the Hidden One’s attacks—struggled immensely. He, throughout the duel, showed signs of exertion and heavy reliance on the Force. This must be taken into account. The fact that he restrained himself from killing the Hidden One makes sense insofar that he didn’t reach out and break his neck; it has no bearing on Luke’s defense. As much as he tried to avoid killing, he tried just as hard to not die. You forget that his son was present.

Even during the opening salvo, Skywalker sensed the Hidden One’s intent to attack; he warned Ben away. Yet even with prior knowledge and a lightsaber, Luke was knocked back and injured. The narration specifically denotes the Hidden One’s strength as a major problem for Luke’s advance on the man himself; someone who is purported to be more powerful than the Emperor, which is Poppunker’s contention, would likely not struggle with someone of such status.

Once again, Skywalker’s hamstrung offense will have no bearing on his defense—which would logically be as potent as ever. And yet, when push came to shove, he struggled a great deal.

Gideon Restricted

Faunus,

The battle-meld was in full effect for the important part of the fight: the part where Luke, Jaina, and Jacen fought through a veritable army to reach Shimrra and his Slayers. Later, when Jaina and Jacen are temporarily (or permanently in the former’s case) removed from the battle meld, it is after most of the fighting has been done. In fact, when they first confront the Slayers—the battle meld is in full effect. Your “off hand” mention of the Slayers coordination seemed like an attempt at apologetics; the guide notes that the battle meld in general is “an advantage the enemy couldn’t match.” How much do you think a little enhanced coordination would compare to the full might of the Skywalkers’ battle meld? Not. One. Bit. Specifically when Luke himself notes that it was one of particular strength.

As regards further questions about the meld, I’m at my (future) stepmother’s house at the moment, and will be for much of the night. They’ll come later.

And as regards Luke being the true beneficiary, I would think it’s obvious, given how the others note Luke’s enhanced skill and ferocity with a lightsaber.

All of this is to underline the point: nothing—nothing—that Luke has done during that fight remotely suggests he’d win a duel with Palpatine.

Gideon Restricted

All right, guys. I need to get off for a bit; I have to do some more research on George Orwell. Later.

Dr McBeefington Restricted

Originally posted by Gideon
I don’t think you’re following.
Luke Skywalker has, as Nebaris noted, dealt with UnuThul with moderate ease—and this is a being that harnessed an unbelievable source of Force power in the form of the Colony. Meanwhile, here, he struggles with the power of a random monk who does not possess the same reserves. You pointed out that Skywalker was likely not trying to kill the Hidden One, which I acknowledged, but that isn’t the point; the point is that his defense—resisting the Hidden One’s attacks—struggled immensely. He, throughout the duel, showed signs of exertion and heavy reliance on the Force. This must be taken into account. The fact that he restrained himself from killing the Hidden One makes sense insofar that he didn’t reach out and break his neck; it has no bearing on Luke’s defense. As much as he tried to avoid killing, he tried just as hard to not die. You forget that his son was present.
Even during the opening salvo, Skywalker sensed the Hidden One’s intent to attack; he warned Ben away. Yet even with prior knowledge and a lightsaber, Luke was knocked back and injured. The narration specifically denotes the Hidden One’s strength as a major problem for Luke’s advance on the man himself; someone who is purported to be more powerful than the Emperor, which is Poppunker’s contention, would likely not struggle with someone of such status.
Once again, Skywalker’s hamstrung offense will have no bearing on his defense—which would logically be as potent as ever. And yet, when push came to shove, he struggled a great deal.

So why is this a mark against Luke, rather than praise for the Hidden One? His power levels seem ridiculously inconsistent.

Gideon Restricted

Are you telling me that the Hidden One is (or intended to be?) a high tier Force user?

I rather doubt it.

kotorfan Fruity Darth

Hey good essay btw.. maybe u should change the "him" to "Palpatine" in the conclusions first sentence. but anyways..

what is TUF luke???
cuz i don't think its a typo or supposed to be TFU luke.
can someone explain?

thx.

and DE luke would probably have lost to Palpys without leia.

Gideon Restricted

TUF Luke = Luke as of the Unifying Force, the last book in the New Jedi Order series.

On another note, I think I screwed up this paper. 🙁

jaden101 Restricted

Originally posted by Gideon
Thanks guys.
Jaden, yeah, it was for this board.

Nice one. There's not too many people on the whole of KMC (nevermind just the SW section) who'd put that effort in to a thread.

Even the structure and flow of it is excellent.

I applaud you. Can't say I get impressed by a lot of the gibberish that gets spewed out on these boards sometimes but that was genuinely good stuff.

kotorfan Fruity Darth

thx

Originally posted by Gideon
TUF Luke = Luke as of the Unifying Force, the last book in the New Jedi Order series.
On another note, I think I screwed up this paper. 🙁

not really.. its pretty good. well i haven't had the time to read all of it yet, but i will eventually after all my hw is done and after studying for like 3 tests 2mrw.

and u ppl on page one of this thread or pg 2.. i forgot which. stop bashing on Gideon about not needing to write an essay. My mom once wrote an essay about how fat someone was because she felt like it. lol (well it was informal and not as good as Gideon's but yeah) besides, whats wrong with writing an essay about palps?

besides, he actaully took the time to write an essay on palpy, which shows how much more dedicated he is unlike.. some people... which is why (one of the reasons) he wins debates more often then those certain people.. lets see you write one then compare it to this palpy essay... I'll bet it won't be as long, have as creative awesome uber titles, or epic sources to quote from. lol

PALPY IS THE MOST POWERFUL SITH LORD EVER!!!

which was the point of his essay. well w/e.. i gotta go so yeah bye for now i guess

Gideon Restricted

Thanks, Jaden.

And no, Kotor, lol. I mean the paper on Orwell.

kotorfan Fruity Darth

Originally posted by Gideon
Thanks, Jaden.
And no, Kotor, lol. I mean the paper on Orwell.

ah ic.. lol

Eminence Boss

Originally posted by Gideon
Faunus,
The battle-meld was in full effect for the important part of the fight: the part where Luke, Jaina, and Jacen fought through a veritable army to reach Shimrra and his Slayers. Later, when Jaina and Jacen are temporarily (or permanently in the former’s case) removed from the battle meld, it is after most of the fighting has been done. In fact, when they first confront the Slayers—the battle meld is in full effect. Your “off hand” mention of the Slayers coordination seemed like an attempt at apologetics; the guide notes that the battle meld in general is “an advantage the enemy couldn’t match.” How much do you think a little enhanced coordination would compare to the full might of the Skywalkers’ battle meld? Not. One. Bit. Specifically when Luke himself notes that it was one of particular strength.
As regards further questions about the meld, I’m at my (future) stepmother’s house at the moment, and will be for much of the night. They’ll come later.

I'll wait.

And as regards Luke being the true beneficiary, I would think it’s obvious,

It isn't obvious. In fact, it seems completely illogical unless he's drawing on the reserves of his considerably weaker counterparts more than either of them are drawing on his and each others'. And since Luke is described during the ascent as drawing energy from "a calm center; an eye" - a pointed reference to something other than the pooled power of the twins - that would be highly unlikely.

Eminence Boss

Originally posted by kotorfan
thx
not really.. its pretty good. well i haven't had the time to read all of it yet, but i will eventually after all my hw is done and after studying for like 3 tests 2mrw.
and u ppl on page one of this thread or pg 2.. i forgot which. stop bashing on Gideon about not needing to write an essay. My mom once wrote an essay about how fat someone was because she felt like it. lol (well it was informal and not as good as Gideon's but yeah) besides, whats wrong with writing an essay about palps?
besides, he actaully took the time to write an essay on palpy, which shows how much more dedicated he is unlike.. some people... which is why (one of the reasons) he wins debates more often then those certain people.. lets see you write one then compare it to this palpy essay... I'll bet it won't be as long, have as creative awesome uber titles, or epic sources to quote from. lol
PALPY IS THE MOST POWERFUL SITH LORD EVER!!!
which was the point of his essay. well w/e.. i gotta go so yeah bye for now i guess

You should relax and learn to not take everything literally. lol

Gideon Restricted

Originally posted by Eminence
I'll wait.

Yeah, you'll have to.

And I noticed you didn't respond to the other part. Probably because you're attempt to mitigate the battle-meld failed utterly, completely, and oh-so-miserably.

It isn't obvious. In fact, it seems completely illogical unless he's drawing on the reserves of his considerably weaker counterparts more than either of them are drawing on his and each others'. And since Luke is described during the ascent as drawing energy from "a calm center; an eye" - a pointed reference to something other than the pooled power of the twins - that would be highly unlikely.

WTF?

He is the one who is noted to have basically reached godhood during this duel. He is the one that they are in awe of. And you're telling me that he's not the one who's benefitting from this power up?

By the way, unless I'm missing something, how the hell is that even a decent argument? The fact that he is a "calm center" is somehow proof that he's not drawing power from them?

I cannot repel lameness of that magnitude.