Ignoring two things, Gideon:
1. Luke was about to deliver the finishing blow to Jacen when Ben yelled to let him doing, shocking Luke for a split second and allowing Jacen to recover
2. Ben's stab to the back, Jacen admits, actually saved Jacen. Luke had just broken Jacen's last hold and Jacen had no weapon. In short? Jacen was a dead man if not for Ben.
Luke, not at his best, was able to soundly best Jacen. A full on Luke would brutally kill him. It would not be close.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ignoring two things, Gideon:
I'm not, but we'll pretend I am if it helps your argument.
1. Luke was about to deliver the finishing blow to Jacen when Ben yelled to let him doing, shocking Luke for a split second and allowing Jacen to recover
You mean Luke Skywalker, with decades of combat experience and a greater command of the Force, with the advantages of a surprise attack and battle rage, overcame his nephew initially?
That's not surprising.
2. Ben's stab to the back, Jacen admits, actually saved Jacen. Luke had just broken Jacen's last hold and Jacen had no weapon. In short? Jacen was a dead man if not for Ben.
Uh, no, Lightsnake. Luke had just been half throttled and beaten, and had just managed to knock Jacen away, and he himself made an attempt to get away from Jacen in order to maneuver. And as far as Jacen having no weapon is concerned, the narration doesn't make any mention of that; he lost the garrot, but not his lightsaber.
Actually, come to think of it, Skywalker was disarmed; he had to drop his lightsaber in order to deal with the garotte.
In short? Your interpretation of the events of the duel are wrong. Jacen had a moment of advantage that Luke just barely survived, and (at best) both were weaponless.
The only thing that stopped Jacen from attacking again was him taken a vibroblade to the back from Ben.
Luke, not at his best, was able to soundly best Jacen.
In the Force? Sure. In a lightsaber fight? No. An enraged Luke Skywalker with the advantages of a surprise attack and outside help only managed to establish slight dominance over Jacen in single combat. That Skywalker was seriously injured during the course of the duel is testament to that fact.
A full on Luke would brutally kill him.
Uh, what?
Did you read Inferno? That was a "full on" Luke.
It would not be close.
It was. And it will be.
Originally posted by Gideon
I'm not, but we'll pretend I am if it helps your argument.
You mean Luke Skywalker, with decades of combat experience and a greater command of the Force, with the advantages of a surprise attack and battle rage, overcame his nephew initially?That's not surprising.
Uh, no, Lightsnake. Luke had just been half throttled and beaten, and had just managed to knock Jacen away, and he himself made an attempt to get away from Jacen in order to maneuver. And as far as Jacen having no weapon is concerned, the narration doesn't make any mention of that; he lost the garrot, but not his lightsaber.Actually, come to think of it, Skywalker was disarmed; he had to drop his lightsaber in order to deal with the garotte.
Moreover, Jacen reflects he lost his saber and has to get a new red one. This wouldn't be a factor if he kept his green one.
In short? Your interpretation of the events of the duel are wrong. Jacen had a moment of advantage that Luke just barely survived, and (at best) both were weaponless.
[B]Luke had beaten him. Luke had just kept coming despite his injuries. He had inflicted more damage on Caedus than he had suffered himself, and he had even escaped the garrote before Ben struck. In fact, it was probably that attack that had saved Caedus's life. Nothing else could have shocked Luke out of his battle rage-only the sight of Ben slipping so far to the dark side.
Inferno page 273
Luke had 'even escaped the garrote.' Sure, Jacen had a moment of advantage....Luke had how many?
The only thing that stopped Jacen from attacking again was him taken a vibroblade to the back from Ben.
In the Force? Sure. In a lightsaber fight? No. An enraged Luke Skywalker with the advantages of a surprise attack and outside help only managed to establish slight dominance over Jacen in single combat.
That Skywalker was seriously injured during the course of the duel is testament to that fact.
Uh, what?Did you read Inferno? That was a "full on" Luke.
It was. And it will be. [/B]
Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'll say this once:
Knock it off.
Absolutely. I'll cease my sarcasm and you will cease your shading of simple truths.
'Initially?' He was dominating Jacen every time they entered into combat together. From the onset, again, Luke was about to kill Jacen when he was distracted by his son.
Once again, Luke initiated a surprise attack and possessed combat advantages afforded by battle rage. He was still critically injured throughout the fight; it was a close battle.
Jacen left his saber in one place to distract Luke and then garroted him. Luke had gotten free from the garrote at that point and Jacen was stunned. Jacen gained a brief advantage via trickery that he almost immediately lost, this isn't the mark of someone who can give a close saber fight.Moreover, Jacen reflects he lost his saber and has to get a new red one. This wouldn't be a factor if he kept his green one.
Jacen kept on coming, Lightsnake, and was reaching for his lightsaber after Ben stabbed him, but Ben got it first.
And Jacen did not immediately lose the advantage via garotte; he slammed Luke around repeatedly, prevented Luke from injuring him via lightsaber, forcing Luke to drop his lightsaber in order to try to release himself.
An objective assessment of the facts, Lightsnake, not your truth shading.
Luke had beaten him. Luke had just kept coming despite his injuries. He had inflicted more damage on Caedus than he had suffered himself, and he had even escaped the garrote before Ben struck. In fact, it was probably that attack that had saved Caedus's life. Nothing else could have shocked Luke out of his battle rage-only the sight of Ben slipping so far to the dark side.
Inferno page 273Luke had 'even escaped the garrote.' Sure, Jacen had a moment of advantage....Luke had how many?
"...Probably that attack saved Caedus's life."
"...Nothing else could have shocked Luke out of his battle rage."
Thank you.
Drawing your attention to the quote above. Luke had stunned Jacen and broken free. Caedus even admits in Inferno that Ben's most likely saved his life.
He knocked him back, broke free, and was moving away from Caedus, unarmed.
Once again, he was in the middle of battle rage.
'Seriously' injured? Faunus compiled a list of injuries they suffered. Compared to Caedus, Luke takes little damage. The worst he suffers is his injured leg.
He suffered a roundhouse that caused respiratory issues, he was blindsided in the Embrace of Pain, which caused his body to "explode with pain," Jacen punched him where he was kicked earlier, suffering further issues, and then he dislocated Luke's knee, then he hit Luke with a light, breaking his nose, and then Jacen dislocated his other knee.
Truthshading much?
Having him at his mercy early on, about to deliver a finishing blow? That doesn't say 'slight.'
Again, Caedus is happy to disagree, as pointed out. Most of Caedus's best blows are also inflicted by attacking wounds Luke had previously suffered, described as 'barely healed,' (Not injuries that should have force enhanced punches slamming into them)
Two of Caedus's blows. Truthshading much?
As Faunus has been kind enough to point out beforehand, Luke has been an emotional wreck throughout Inferno and has barely healed wounds from Lumiya
Irrelevant. "Caedus is happy" to point out that Luke had the advantages of a sneak attack and battle rage.
You're not free to argue this.
No.
It was only close because Jacen firmly relied on his environment and the Yuuzhan Vong torture instruments merely to buy time. Take away Ben yelling at Luke to let him murder Jacen and Jacen would have died early on. In a saber fight, Jacen was no match and he knew it.
Yes, the fact that Jacen uses the environment and fights intelligently aren't points against him. Luke suffered critical injures despite two major advantages; the fight was close. Period.
"If Luke wanted to finish this [fight] -- and it seemed like a good idea, given how battered he was himself -- he only had a few seconds."
-- Inferno, page 259.
And that was before Ben's first intervention.
I'm sorry if I came across as sarcastic, Lightsnake, but you are deliberately twisting the truth to facilitate your agenda. The fact of the matter is that Luke Skywalker was under battle rage, which increased his ferocity and skill in combat, and attacked with the element of surprise. And even he acknowledges that the fight was hard.
Is he better than Caedus? Sure. In the Force, it's a notable advantage. But in sheer combat, it was a close call and likely would be again.
Sorry.
Originally posted by Gideon
Absolutely. I'll cease my sarcasm and you will cease your shading of simple truths.
Once again, Luke initiated a surprise attack and possessed combat advantages afforded by battle rage. He was still critically injured throughout the fight; it was a close battle.
Jacen kept on coming, Lightsnake, and was reaching for his lightsaber after Ben stabbed him, but Ben got it first.And Jacen did not immediately lose the advantage via garotte; he slammed Luke around repeatedly, prevented Luke from injuring him via lightsaber, forcing Luke to drop his lightsaber in order to try to release himself.
"Should have let me go when you had the chance, "Jacen snarled. "Now you're done."
Luke slammed an elbow into Jacen's ribs, but it was like hitting a permacrete wall. Instead of continuing to fight, he accelerated into the spin, using the Force to hurl them both into the nearest wall.
Jacen hit first, his skull clunking hard into the durasteel. The garrote loosened a little. Luke dropped his lightsaber, bracing one hand against the other so he could use the strength of both arms to hammer his elbow up under Jacen's chin.
The garrote went completely slack. Luke followed up with a palm-heel to the same target, using the impact to drive himself away from his attacker and buy some maneuvering room.
Where is the repeated slamming? And seems Luke released his saber so he could deliver a more powerful blow when Jacen was stunned.
And Jacen was crawling towards his saber. Which makes sense when you consider he figures he needs it to just survive. Crawling on the floor towards your saber when you can barely even stand is hardly 'kept coming.'
An objective assessment of the facts, Lightsnake, not your truth shading.
"...Probably that attack saved Caedus's life.""...Nothing else could have shocked Luke out of his battle rage."
Thank you.
He knocked him back, broke free, and was moving away from Caedus, unarmed.Once again, he was in the middle of battle rage.
He suffered a roundhouse that caused respiratory issues, he was blindsided in the Embrace of Pain, which caused his body to "explode with pain," Jacen punched him where he was kicked earlier, suffering further issues, and then he dislocated Luke's knee, then he hit Luke with a light, breaking his nose, and then Jacen dislocated his other knee.
Also, when was Luke blindsided in the Embrace? Jacen hit him with a rack of tentacles, sure, and apparently had his nose broken. But other dislocated knee? I'm just reading Jacen kicked his knee, no dislocation there.
Point is? Few, if any of these injuries count as 'critical' and some were only possible because Ben stopped Luke the first time or what Luke suffered before the fight began.
And also, I question where you get 'respiratory' problems as if this was plaguing Luke the entire fight.
Truthshading much?
I think we can see some, yes
Two of Caedus's blows. Truthshading much?
As I said. 'most.' Not that these impaired Luke overmuch anyways[Quote]
Irrelevant. "Caedus is happy" to point out that Luke had the advantages of a sneak attack and battle rage.
You're not free to argue this.
Yes, the fact that Jacen uses the environment and fights intelligently aren't points against him. Luke suffered critical injures despite two major advantages; the fight was close. Period. [/B]
The fight is not 'close.' Luke inflicts far more damage on Caedus and suffers comparatively negligible wounds. The worst is a dislocated knee, compared to Caedus's saber wounds, including a hole in his head and a kidney puncture. He doesn't have the advantage of growing stronger when he's hurt, either.
When the guy you're arguing for had his life saved twice in the fight by someone else's interference, then that should say a lot.
"If Luke wanted to finish this [fight] -- and it seemed like a good idea, given how battered he was himself -- he only had a few seconds."
-- Inferno, page 259.And that was before Ben's first intervention.
As for the battered part? Let's examine their injuries
Luke:
1. blow to his injured ribs
2. Hit in the knee so it popped
3. hit with wrack of tendrils and pinned to the wall by them briefly
4. Punched to the injured ribs again
Jacen:
1. Punctured kidney
2. Hole in the head, exposing bone
3. Sliced shoulder
4. Scratched eye
5. thrown with the force into a wall so that he 'cracked and crashed' so much Luke worried the wall was broken, and then wrapped with the vines to boot
Half of Luke's injuries listed were only possible because of the injuries he'd suffered with Lumiya which were barely healed. One only possible because of environment. At this point, Jacen is helpless and Luke is about to kill him when Ben intervenes
This isn't remotely debatable: Jacen's injuries are not only worse, but he had no such disadvantages going in from the fight and his kidney wound only made him stronger. Did Jacen get in good hits Yes. But that doesn't make the fight close. If Luke is 'battered,' what does that make Jacen?
I'm sorry if I came across as sarcastic, Lightsnake, but you are deliberately twisting the truth to facilitate your agenda. The fact of the matter is that Luke Skywalker was under battle rage, which increased his ferocity and skill in combat, and attacked with the element of surprise. And even he acknowledges that the fight was hard.
Is he better than Caedus? Sure. In the Force, it's a notable advantage. But in sheer combat, it was a close call and likely would be again.
A point Gideon and I were discussing I wish to bring up:
At one point in the fight, Luke and Jacen are fighting as equals when Luke is out of the battle rage, but several things to point out:
1. Luke is injured at this point
2. Jacen is as well, but unlike Luke? Pain and injury makes him stronger, as pointed out at the start of the fight. And from the time in the Embrace of Pain with all the injuries he received through the fight, his boost has to be considerable
If we argue that Jacen can give Luke even a close fight, how do we compensate for these factors:
A. That Jacen was given a boost right off when Luke stabbed his kidney. The surprise attack may have helped Jacen more than anything
B. Right off, Jacen delivers a blow to Luke's previously damaged ribs. We can assume in another fight, Luke will not have any of these weaknesses to exploit any more than we'll throw Jacen in there without his arm.
C. While Luke in his battle rage is the superior combatant, Jacen pulls off some sneaky tricks to his credit, with attacking his injured ribs and using the tentacle rack as opposed to fighting him straight on as we assume a saber fight would go.
Ergo, I'd submit, based on this, that Luke would have a solid advantage on Jacen when both are at their base states in a saber fight.
The original post stated that It is Jacen with all the knowledge and experienced he had gained up to when he died and became one with the force. Except he was restored his physical body in prime condition, all limbs, no injuries etc.
So it is his best mentality, paired with his best physical state of being.
Also the original post states that Jacen is told by the force that he will be combating luke skywalker, so it wouldn't be a surprise this time. Just throwing that out there in case anyway didn't read op.
If I remember correctly (what page is it?), Caedus clearly stated that he didn't want to fight Luke again because Luke would know the truth who killed Mara. In Invincible he states (again I don't know the page) "Luke was the one swordsman he dare not face" (I think that's exact quote). The fight in Inferno was IMO nearly on equal terms, but if they fought again it would be a different story. Luke would have used the Force completely unrestrained and tore Jacen/Caedus to pieces. I'm assuming that Luke knew all 11 lightsaber forms plus the one he invented and Jacen/Caedus also stated he didn't want to be on the receiving end. He states in Inferno " . . . Luke was using a new fighting style that to his knowledge nobody lived to tell about it." I'd be seriously afraid myself to face the greatest Jedi Master when he's having a bad day.
Truculent
"Luke was the one swordsman he dare not face"
LOTF: Invincible
All that mattered was that Luke was here, somehow, and that he was the one swordsman in the galaxy whom Caedus did not dare fight one-armed.
TruculentHe'd been fighting a Force masked Jaina.
" . . . Luke was using a new fighting style that to his knowledge nobody lived to tell about it."
Thanks for the exact quotes - didn't have access to the books. xxxpoppunker182 was right. Jacen/Caedus couldn't believe the sheer magnitude of Luke's power in Inferno. Jacen/Caedus was humiliated and then barely escaping a lightsaber duel with Luke. Ben actually did him a favor by stabbing him - he saved his life ironically. If Ben was out cold, Jacen/Caedus was a dead man.