^ I did do that. After suggesting a battlezone several times. Each time, in an effort to preclude this conversation from being carried out amidst other conversations.
I gave jinzin the opening post to clarify his position. Which he subsequently did. As far as I'm concerned, the continued conversation was initiated on my terms, but he's clarified his position, posted arguments and continues to reserve the right to vote tally. We obviously have sharp disagreements on a specific point that is ripe for vigorous debate.
He hasn't decided to bow out. He can choose to do so. Like I can. It's at the mod's discretion to allow this to proceed or hold us to traditional standards of initiation of "battlezones."
I don't mind this happening. But going under the moniker of a Battlezone is a bit misleading when the whole Battlezone idea was set up with specific parameters and rules in mind. It opens the way for all sorts of threads to go under a similar name, and some that could be much less appropriate.
So I'm editing the thread title, because it isn't BZ format. But this will stay open as long as the combatants wish it.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ I'm good with it. It's up to jinzin now.Also, it'd be great if you could post a link to "How to Create a Battlezone."
Actually, I wish I knew where it was. I know goober hashed out the particulars at some point. The plan was to transfer it, along with a lot of other threads, over to the new tourney forum that we're getting. But it's been a while and Raz hasn't been able to get around to it, so it's been put on hold. Still, it's in my upcoming plans.
Darthgoober PMed me this a little while back.
Welcome to the Revised KMC Battlezone, where some of the best and brightest of the Vs Forum come to prove their dominance over the opposition. Battlezone Matches are formal debates and are intended for members who're interested in solo debates with a bit more structure than is normally found in the threads of the Vs Forum.
The rules that govern the Battlezone are fairly simple and are as follows...
*Please note, the following are simply the "Default" Rules for Battlezone Matches to provide some initial structure that sets Battlezone matches apart from the Vs Forum. The stipulations and rules of individual matches are subject to change at the participants discretion. However, I STRONGLY suggest that any changes to the rules are noted and agreed upon by both parties before the match begins because trying to change the rules mid match shows bad form and is a BAD idea.
1. DO NOT POST IN SOMEONE ELSES MATCH. Debates are between the people actually involved with the match in question, so don’t chime in with your opinion or random spam. "Do unto others..." and all that junk.
2. The participants must fight “in character”. For the most part what constitutes “in character” will be determined by the judges, but as a good rule of thumb if they’ve never done it in combat then it’s probably not in character for them to do so.
3. The characters AVERAGE showing is what matters, no the high or low end. Both high and low end feats are likely to come up over the course of the debate, and it’s for the judges to decide which is the better depiction of the character.
4. The characters go into Battlezone fights "Battle Ready". This means that they begin the fight just as they normally would in a comic. They have standard equipment, no unusual power ups or empowerment's, and any powers that are consistently used in combat are assumed to be in effect at the start of the match. That means that if the match features the someone like Invisible Woman they'll begin the match with their Force Field raised, if it features someone like Superman they'll begin the match already in flight mode. Just picture the panel BEFORE the big fight where the characters are posed and squaring off .
5. Matches last exactly one week, starting at the time of the first argument is made(as opposed to the opening post).
Setting up a match.
I figured I’d go ahead and spell this out to avoid a bunch of unnecessary PM’s asking how to do it, so pay attention because setting up a match is a fairly simple process….
Step 1. Poster A challenges Poster B to a match. This can be through direct challenge on Poster B’s team thread, PM, a post in the Battlezone discussion thread, or even an open call on the Off Topic thread for all I care.
Step 2. If Poster B accepts, the two decide on the specific type of match they want and any match conditions they both feel are appropriate(I.E. the battle location, no speedblitze, prep time, no Godblast, etc.)
Step 3. After the conditions are decided, 3 judges for the match are agreed upon and asked to judge the match.
Step 4. Someone(be it one of the judges or one of the participants) post the opening for the match thread(listing any and all match conditions), at which point the match can begin.
Step 5. After one week the judges vote on the match in question, deciding on a winner.
Potential Battlezone match types-
*Some of these were just copied from the ICT Faq at herochat and some were modified.
Flat-Footed- Characters are normally assumed to be "Battle Ready" when the match begins,.adding this stipulation puts both characters on the ground with defenses down.
Slugfest- The characters take turns trading punches until one goes down, relying ONLY on strength and durability.
H2H- Hand to Hand fighting only. This is a fight where opponents pit their physical attributes(strength, speed, ect.) and martial skill against one another without weapons or exotic powers like energy attacks, flight, or transmutation. Move-reading, enhanced senses, and mind-reading(provided the character uses it primarily for physical fights and not communication[Mr. X-Fighting]) are allowed, as are "amping" abilities. This is any form of hand-to-hand combat, not just Asian martial arts. Dodging and giving ground for tactical regrouping is allowed.
Equal Bodies- The two opponents are in physically equal bodies. If the fighters are of opposite genders, then they are placed in exactly equal bodies of their own gender. They are equal in every physical stat, with no special powers(energy blasts, etc.) to speak of.
Slobberknocker- Known as "CBR Style" to some, a slobberknocker is an all out fight to the finish between two or more combatants. For whatever reason, the characters are enraged enough that they want their opponents to die horribly at their hands(even if it's extremely out of character), and will use any available means at their disposal to do it. They don't hold back or screw around at all, they go for the quickest win possible.
Judges Wanted- A match were the winner is determined by the forum at large rather than a selected panel of judges. Anyone who's been a member for 6 months and has at least 200 posts can vote
And with all of that being said, I wish everyone good luck and I hope you all have a good time
^ Thanks. 👆
This debate has nothing to do with one character vs one character. It's more about a clear difference in opinion concerning evidentiary value. So unless battlezones are expanded to account for this type of debate, then this is not a battlezone. Also, I personally endorse the use of the one week limit rule as applied to this debate.
As it stands, it's both a) jinzin's turn to address my last rebuttal and b) jinzin's prerogative to continue this debatel. I'll leave it to his discretion regarding the length of time to continue, if at all.
You're position is not more reasonable whatsoever. Wolverine managed from a sitting position to leap out of his bar-stool over a counter and to the other side all before the bullets even left the barrel then? Because if he was able to do all that faster than his attackers' electrical impulses could process shooting him to pull a trigger, that'd be a lightspeed feat my friend.
The fact of the matter is that there was no telegraphing, or anticipation there whatsoever. Once again he simply had to move from point a to point b faster than he was shot at and if over a dozen men with automatic rifles at near point blank distance simply "missed" well... I think we both know how "reasonable" that sounds.
As for the second feat, well it pretty much stands as well as the first one. Wolverine was in a seated position, dark room, and the chair was actually tucked in this time... &....In the time it took to pull the trigger Wolverine was already out of the path of the bullets. It may not be concrete proof that he didn't move until after the gun was fired but for someone who wants to talk about reason it doesn't sound very reasonable to discard it as if Wolverine was able to do this before the process of firing the guns triggered in his assailants brains and yet projecting that it remains a feat of less than bullet time reactions...
Wolverine having bullet time feats isn't news... the very terrorist feat that you keep trying to discredit shows as much.
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/8499/xmenv2133p03gm1.jpg
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/6867/bulletsidestepkq1.jpg
Wolverine walking away, shot fired, and then we see Wolverine looking back at the terrorist his head tilted at a 45 degree angle having evaded the bullet. Even with the panel in bullet time I'm assuming you're going to come up with some bullshit so suggest it wasn't right?
Here we see Wolverine being shot at with automatic rifles and they don't connect with anything but the goon behind him.
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/9711/wolviebullye1.jpg
I fail to see how you can look at all of this and somehow justify your conclusion that Wolverine doesn't move as fast as the things he evades in the very feats he's shown evading them... It's amazing.
And as for the Wolverine laser dodging, you have a very.... "interesting"
take on the events you're looking at.
Wolverine notices he's tripped the mechanisms by hearing alone. He necessarily can't use "aim dodging" as you like to think he evades this kind of shit because
A) He's in the dark.
an B) There's too damned many of them anyways.
And yes he does get hit... He gets grazed across the forearm while dodging multiple other beams in a crossfire. A graze out of multiple beam dodging and then he proceeds not to get hit again... and is able to perform that level of dodging for what's estimated at what would appear to be 200 feet at the LEAST. How you think him getting tagged by one beam supports your case when he's dodging hundred of others in a crossfire is clearly beyond me...
AND, he doesn't address his ability to stay two steps ahead of the lasers to ANY plan so I don't know where you came up with that fantasy... He flat out says it's because of his "SPEED and STRENGTH"... So well done on showing us just how poor your skills of interpretation really are. Or maybe you would like to show me the invisible text that has him asserting he's doing this because of planning and anticipation? 😐
And NO... I'm not going to drop the telepathic bolt discussion because I'm not doing this again with you and it's the primary reason why we're here now. You made this thread as a direct means to attack my rationale which you label as absurd; don't be upset when I treat you in turn.
PROVE that telepathic BOLTS move at light speed. PROVE that Thor's reaction speed is beyond an instantaneous result.
And while you're at it maybe you can NOT ignore this the next time around:
Originally posted by jinzin
And again, what's your explanation for him dodging tons of lazers in the dark from every direction? Stating he can dodge a bullet? Sidestepping a bullet it bullet-time? or being stated to be dodging bullets by Daredevil? or being stated as dodging rays by the narrative?
I suppose he "aim gauged" Living Lightning too huh?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Hopefully once the tourny/battlezone forum is up we can have all sorts of different debates. It will help settle things like you and Jin are debating.
^ Thanks. 👆This debate has nothing to do with one character vs one character. It's more about a clear difference in opinion concerning evidentiary value. So unless battlezones are expanded to account for this type of debate, then this is not a battlezone. Also, I personally endorse the use of the one week limit rule as applied to this debate.
As it stands, it's both a) jinzin's turn to address my last rebuttal and b) jinzin's prerogative to continue this debatel. I'll leave it to his discretion regarding the length of time to continue, if at all.
Originally posted by Digi😂
And that is why Bada runs this place now. I just ban people when he tells me.fdog
And why Raoul is the JAM (Junior Assistant Moderator). biscuits
😛
Logan in a room of lasers.
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/8592/lazerxfire.jpg
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9748/lazerxfire2.jpg
Logan with evades a shoot.
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/8499/xmenv2133p03gm1.jpg
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/6867/bulletsidestepkq1.jpg
Logan evades more shoots.
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/9711/wolviebullye1.jpg
Cant say, any of these are instances of actual bullet timing. They are more or less, instances of Logan applying his “skill” to evade being shoot.
However this is an actual bullet timing feat. Its too bad it’s a non cannon feat.
http://i39.tinypic.com/kdmio2.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/2unzua9.jpg
Originally posted by jinzinNo. My position is that before the shooters started firing, he already leaped to evade the bullets. That does nto necessarily lead to beating the electrical impulses from brain to finger at all. Other than strawmanning, you're mischaracterizing the feat without supporting it. I never said that Wolverine moved in the space of the time it took the electrical impulses to travel from the shooters' brains to their fingers. I said that Wolverine moved in the space of time it took for the shooters to begin firing after their leader told them to attack him in both sets of scans.
You're position is not more reasonable whatsoever. Wolverine managed from a sitting position to leap out of his bar-stool over a counter and to the other side all before the bullets even left the barrel then? Because if he was able to do all that faster than his attackers' electrical impulses could process shooting him to pull a trigger, that'd be a lightspeed feat my friend.
Wolverine heard the orders in the respective scans. He just had to leap out of the way quickly enough between when the leader issued the order and when the shooters started actually shooting. That is a reasonable interpretation of those scans. And because Wolverine has no on-panel feats of moving at the precise moment or after the precise moment the bullet or laser is discharged, than it is a more reasonable interpretation than yours. Your interpretation requiring the assumption that Wolverine waited to dodge until the precise moment the bullets were discharged or after the bullets were discharged.
Originally posted by jinzinTelegraphing as in reading a person's actions visually? If you limit telegraphing to that, then you'd be correct. My use of the word telegraphing is not constricted to visual confirmation. My use of the word telegraphing contemplates reading a person's actions both visually and audibly. If a persons says, "Kill Wolverine now!" Then Wolverine has enough information to assume that he needs to get out of the way that moment.
The fact of the matter is that there was no telegraphing, or anticipation there whatsoever. Once again he simply had to move from point a to point b faster than he was shot at and if over a dozen men with automatic rifles at near point blank distance simply "missed" well... I think we both know how "reasonable" that sounds
This is similar to anticipation. And if you want to leave audible confirmation and subsequent estimation out of the realm of telegraphing, that is certainly your prerogative. I don't choose to. And ultimately, that is besides the point. Because Wolverine had a split-second or a seconds' advance notice that people were going to shoot him. Since his back is turned, he can only generally estimate that they are aiming at his back, the easiest target. As such, instead of spinning around and precisely blocking shots, he has to jump out of the way altogether. Which is what happens in your scans. There is no measurable reference that Wolverine refused to act on this information ahead of the bullet discharges. The scene conveniently cuts away from Wolverine. Therefore, it is undeniable that there is a chance that Wolverine jumped away before the bullets were actually discharged. And that chance is a more reliably reasonable interpretation because you've not presented a san whereby Wolverine clearly dodges a bullet AFTER it's been fired.
Originally posted by jinzinSee above.
As for the second feat, well it pretty much stands as well as the first one. Wolverine was in a seated position, dark room, and the chair was actually tucked in this time... &....In the time it took to pull the trigger Wolverine was already out of the path of the bullets. It may not be concrete proof that he didn't move until after the gun was fired but for someone who wants to talk about reason it doesn't sound very reasonable to discard it as if Wolverine was able to do this before the process of firing the guns triggered in his assailants brains and yet projecting that it remains a feat of less than bullet time reactions...
Originally posted by jinzinStop swearing. Are you assuming that Wolverine evaded this bullet rather than the terrorist merely missing? Ok. Let's run with that. How did Wolverine evade the bullet? 1) Did it graze his neck and then utilizing vast superspeed, Wolverine reflexively pulled his neck away before the bullet could penetrate further? 2) Or did Wolverine hear the bullet being fired with his enhanced sense of hearing and pulled his neck away the moment he heard the bullet's discharge? 3) OR did Wolverine, hear the terrorist pick up the gun with his enhanced hearing and anticipated the shot and pulled his neck away before the terrorist even pulled the trigger? Then again, perhaps the terrorist just simply missed and he grazed his neck and Wolverine's eyes reflexively moved to the side at that moment.
Wolverine having bullet time feats isn't news... the very terrorist feat that you keep trying to discredit shows as much.http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/8499/xmenv2133p03gm1.jpg
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/6867/bulletsidestepkq1.jpgWolverine walking away, shot fired, and then we see Wolverine looking back at the terrorist his head tilted at a 45 degree angle having evaded the bullet. Even with the panel in bullet time I'm assuming you're going to come up with some bullshit so suggest it wasn't right?
Are all possible scenarios reasonable explanations? If you answer that they are not reasonable, then explain why. If you answer that they are reasonable, which explanation is more reasonable
Originally posted by jinzinIn the second scan, we see Wolverine's position relative to the goon. His shoulders are in view and are not blocked by Wolverine's body. In the third scan, the other goons shoot the hapless goon in the shoulders. It's absolutely reasonable to suggest that Wolverine's body was already in a position to avoid those bullets' trajectory and was in the process of evading lower or to the right to avoid his left shoulder from getting hit by the chest shot. In other words, he saw that he was fighting goons with guns and decided to stop a split second before one goon to draw aim, and then jumped out of the way to let them shoot each other. Is Wolverine not smart enough to do that?
Here we see Wolverine being shot at with automatic rifles and they don't connect with anything but the goon behind him.
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/9711/wolviebullye1.jpgI fail to see how you can look at all of this and somehow justify your conclusion that Wolverine doesn't move as fast as the things he evades in the very feats he's shown evading them... It's amazing.
Originally posted by jinzinhttp://img136.imageshack.us/img136/8592/lazerxfire.jpg
And as for the Wolverine laser dodging, you have a very.... "interesting"
take on the events you're looking at.
Wolverine notices he's tripped the mechanisms by hearing alone. He necessarily can't use "aim dodging" as you like to think he evades this kind of shit because
A) He's in the dark.
an B) There's too damned many of them anyways.
And yes he does get hit... He gets grazed across the forearm while dodging multiple other beams in a crossfire. A graze out of multiple beam dodging and then he proceeds not to get hit again... and is able to perform that level of dodging for what's estimated at what would appear to be 200 feet at the LEAST. How you think him getting tagged by one beam supports your case when he's dodging hundred of others in a crossfire is clearly beyond me...AND, he doesn't address his ability to stay two steps ahead of the lasers to ANY plan so I don't know where you came up with that fantasy... He flat out says it's because of his "SPEED and STRENGTH"... So well done on showing us just how poor your skills of interpretation really are. Or maybe you would like to show me the invisible text that has him asserting he's doing this because of planning and anticipation?
Firstly, it's not dark enough that he can't see. Because in the fourth panel of the first scan, he notices a japanese letter on a circuitboard. Also, I'm sure by the time the lasers were blasting about, they must have emitted some sort of light and provided even more visibility. Second, he "stays two steps ahead o' the laser blasts" after he's been tagged. After getting tagged by the first defense mechanism, he already has measured the timing between tripping it and when the laser is discharged. Thus it is likely that he is able to predict (i) when the laser will be discharged upon tripping a trigger; and (ii) how quick he'll need to jump to avoid it. One, two steps ahead. Like he states. On-panel.
What else does "staying two steps ahead o' the laser blasts" mean? Because to me, it's very reasonable to interpret that as meaning that he literally anticipates two steps in advance how to dodge the lasers with predetermined movements. At the very least, I think that's much more reasonable than the suggestion that he utilizes the FTL ability to move faster than lasers and dodge the beams only after they're fired. You seriously have dehabilitated your position with your reliance on these scans. Staying two steps ahead of something suggests that he is anticipating in advance what's going to happen. This is an anticipation feat that utilizes his strength and speed to see his precomposed plan through. It is not evidence of actual FTL reflexes. Nuff said.
Originally posted by jinzinI'm calling you out. You continue to talk about a completely separate topic that doesn't affect this topic's issue. The issue being whether a scan that doesn't concretely show a character moving at the precise moment or after the moment a bullet or laser is discharged can be used to suggest FTB or FTL speed. You're trying to distract the argument here because of the weakness of your position. But since you won't let it go, and I did initiate this, I'll give you what you want: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=509195
And NO... I'm not going to drop the telepathic bolt discussion because I'm not doing this again with you and it's the primary reason why we're here now. You made this thread as a direct means to attack my rationale which you label as absurd; don't be upset when I treat you in turn.PROVE that telepathic BOLTS move at light speed. PROVE that Thor's reaction speed is beyond an instantaneous result.
Since you've been given a clear oppurtunity, don't bring off-topic discussion to this thread ever again.
Originally posted by jinzinSee above. He could see. You haven't shown scans of him dodging a bullet in bullet-time after it's been fired. And generalized statements that read "he dodges lasers" can be equally read as "he can avoid lasers through skill, speed and anticipation" rather than "he uses FTL reflexes to dodge lasers." As it stands, when faced by that statement alone, while in the presence of a multitude of scans that suggest he doesn't have FTL reflexes, the former is more reasonable than the latter.
And again, what's your explanation for him dodging tons of lazers in the dark from every direction? Stating he can dodge a bullet? Sidestepping a bullet it bullet-time? or being stated to be dodging bullets by Daredevil? or being stated as dodging rays by the narrative?
One dumb, I have a question; your argument is that thor moved faster than phoenix beams which was going faster than the speed of thought (I think thats what you're debating about). He basically reacted to it before it came to him (which would still indicate that he's faster than thought since it was a psy attack).
With that said, wouldnt that feat be comparable to this--> http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/8915/sabesab5.jpg
Psylock is a telepath, and her mind couldnt even follow wolvie and sabes movement (again telepathic powers).
With that said, you're basically claiming that wolverine and sabes has faster than light reflexes since both scans proves that they could move faster than the mind can/could react.
^ I'll repeat what I said to shiv. You can offer comments, but do not present arguments to either myself or jinzin in this thread again. What you posted wasn't a comment, it was an argument. As for your argument: Psylocke states that she cannot follow them in a visual sense. Which is obviously denoted by her comment about "both men move in a blur." Blur relates to vision and is optical, not telepathy. Furthermore, she states that in following their movements, they move "almost faster" than her mind can follow. Which literally means that she almost didn't follow their movements, but she did follow their movements. If someone is almost faster than me, they are not faster than me.
As with shiv, I reserve the right to set aside your vote based on your demonstration that you hold preconceived notions to the point of arguing with me. Any other thread and it would be welcome. I'm trying to contain this discussion though.
Originally posted by carver9First, the two instances you are trying to compare are not even relatable.
One dumb, I have a question; your argument is that thor moved faster than phoenix beams which was going faster than the speed of thought (I think thats what you're debating about). He basically reacted to it before it came to him (which would still indicate that he's faster than thought since it was a psy attack).With that said, wouldnt that feat be comparable to this--> http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/8915/sabesab5.jpg
Psylock is a telepath, and her mind couldnt even follow wolvie and sabes movement (again telepathic powers).
With that said, you're basically claiming that wolverine and sabes has faster than light reflexes since both scans proves that they could move faster than the mind can/could react.
Second, what difference does it make if she is a telepath or not?
Another problem is that "lasers" in comics (and fiction in general) often don't share the properties of lasers in real life (i.e. they don't move at lightspeed). So unless there's a direct statement that the "lasers" were moving at lightspeed, or unless they follow all the same rules a real life laser does (invisible unless traveling through a thick medium, does not cause explosions or impart significant momentum, thermal effects, etc.) it's best to assume it's not lightspeed.
