Originally posted by Slash_KMC
The latter. Mace has a good chance of taking this on his own.
Think for one second.
Unlike against Sidious, Kun has a myriad of esoteric Sith techniques that Mace Windu wouldn't have even heard of, let alone come up with a possible defense for. He's also in possession of two Sith gauntlets, both "radically enhancing his telekinetic power" (Dark Side Sourcebook) and capable of spamming enormous beams of dark side energy that tear right through Sith Wyrm hide and solid temple stone. Windu's Force powers are very limited since he's a Jedi, which doesn't bode well for him considering Kun is the more powerful of the two by a fair margin.
When it comes to dueling abilities, Kun's technical prowess is -at least- on par with Windu's own given that he created an entirely new and deadly form from scratch and mastered it within six months. He was able to match Ulic Qel-Droma in a battle "that could have gone on for hours". The very same prodigy Qel-Droma who was capable of fending off a trained and experienced Jedi Master fueled by her rage whilst cut off from the Force. He also has several aces up his sleeve in a lightsaber fight, like his lightsaber's dual-phase ability; which means he can extend his saber's blade-span up to a whooping 10 ft or set the blade intensity low enough for another saber to pass right through it. It'd likely throw one off-balance and allow for an opening to capitalize on - through the Force or otherwise.
I'd say on his own Exar would down Windu. Factor in a revered Jedi Master like Plo Koon, who was even held in high regard by Darth Maul for his battle prowess and skill, and you'd have a dead Mace Windu and farmboy.
Originally posted by Advent
Think for one second.Unlike against Sidious, Kun has a myriad of esoteric Sith techniques that Mace Windu wouldn't have even heard of, let alone come up with a possible defense for. He's also in possession of two Sith gauntlets, both "radically enhancing his telekinetic power" (Dark Side Sourcebook) and capable of spamming enormous beams of dark side energy that tear right through Sith Wyrm hide and solid temple stone. Windu's Force powers are very limited since he's a Jedi, which doesn't bode well for him considering Kun is the more powerful of the two by a fair margin.
When it comes to dueling abilities, Kun's technical prowess is -at least- on par with Windu's own given that he created an entirely new and deadly form from scratch and mastered it within six months. He was able to match Ulic Qel-Droma in a battle "that could have gone on for hours". The very same prodigy Qel-Droma who was capable of fending off a trained and experienced Jedi Master fueled by her rage whilst cut off from the Force. He also has several aces up his sleeve in a lightsaber fight, like his lightsaber's dual-phase ability; which means he can extend his saber's blade-span up to a whooping 10 ft or set the blade intensity low enough for another saber to pass right through it. It'd likely throw one off-balance and allow for an opening to capitalize on - through the Force or otherwise.
I'd say on his own Exar would down Windu. Factor in a revered Jedi Master like Plo Koon, who was even held in high regard by Darth Maul for his battle prowess and skill, and you'd have a dead Mace Windu and farmboy.
Hmm. makes sense to me!? that is a pretty good argument, anyone disagree? Besides Gideon? I think that Exar Kun is overall probably a little better. If Mace Windu rates at a 9.5, Exar is probably 10-10.5. But wouldn't his shatterpoint abilities help windu somewhat?
Originally posted by Advent
Think for one second.Unlike against Sidious, Kun has a myriad of esoteric Sith techniques that Mace Windu wouldn't have even heard of, let alone come up with a possible defense for.
I'm not certain what your point is here, Advent. Are you suggesting that Darth Sidious was not privy to "a myriad of esoteric Sith techniques"? Lest we forget, this is the man who was recognized as of the Phantom Menace as maintaining "a vast wealth of Sith knowledge" (the Dark Side Sourcebook) and was "the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power" by Attack of the Clones (the Complete Visual Dictionary).
In the end, Palpatine was far more powerful and more informed in just about everything than Kun. And none of that saved him from Windu, though I will grant you that Palpatine didn't attempt to use any of these techniques against Windu.
Meanwhile, could you provide the information that would conclude Mace Windu would have never heard of Kun's techniques?
When it comes to dueling abilities, Kun's technical prowess is -at least- on par with Windu's own given that he created an entirely new and deadly form from scratch and mastered it within six months.
I'm not sure what your point here is, either. Mace Windu invented a form as well, Vaapad, which is regarded as "the deadliest" and "most demanding" of lightsaber forms; one has to be a "high end master of multiple forms" to even attempt to master Vaapad. Windu was also the youngest member of the Jedi Council in history prior to Anakin's ascent (which was only given due to Palpatine's influence). This form allowed him to go toe-to-toe with the aforementioned Palpatine, who was powerful enough to dismember three of the Order's most celebrated swordsmen -- one of whom was capable of outdueling General Grievous -- in ten seconds.
I see nothing in what you've posted that would suggest Kun's skills are "at least" on par with Windu's.
Originally posted by Gaevus Mesias
Hmm. makes sense to me!? that is a pretty good argument, anyone disagree? Besides Gideon? I think that Exar Kun is overall probably a little better. If Mace Windu rates at a 9.5, Exar is probably 10-10.5. But wouldn't his shatterpoint abilities help windu somewhat?
The problem is elaboration. I'm not an expert on Exar Kun, and Advent hasn't given us enough information to conclude that her assertions are valid.
Originally posted by Gideon
I'm not certain what your point is here, Advent. Are you suggesting that Darth Sidious was not privy to "a myriad of esoteric Sith techniques"?
My point was established clearly: Mace Windu hasn't encountered any of the techniques demonstrated or known by Kun aside from Force lightning. His powers in the Force aren't shown to be anywhere remotely near Kun's own, leading me to believe that Windu would be overpowered.
What I had said was "Unlike against Sidious", which could be more clearly translated into, "Unlike the duel against Sidious, where only one, blockable Force power was used".
Lest we forget, this is the man who was recognized as of the Phantom Menace as maintaining "a vast wealth of Sith knowledge" (the Dark Side Sourcebook) and was "the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power" by Attack of the Clones (the Complete Visual Dictionary).
That's largely irrelevant considering he didn't use that unsubstantiated "knowledge" (of what? Offensive techniques? History? Alchemy?).
In the end, Palpatine was far more powerful and more informed in just about everything than Kun.
"Far more powerful"? That's an overstatement. And while he may be "more powerful" (in what way? Telekinesis? Entirely?), that doesn't make Kun any less deadly.
And none of that saved him from Windu, though I will grant you that Palpatine didn't attempt to use any of these techniques against Windu.
Your essentially defeating your point here (though I'm not sure what you were getting at to begin with).
Meanwhile, could you provide the information that would conclude Mace Windu would have never heard of Kun's techniques?
I find it a stretch to believe a Jedi would know ancient Sith techniques that had been hidden for millenia on end to begin with. But I'll provide a direct quote, which is in reference to his Force techniques:
Originally posted by AdventThe Jedi Academy Sourcebook:
"The dark knowledge of the Sith teachings died with Kun...(keep in mind that even Lord Vader, himself a Dark Lord of the Sith, did not know all there is to know of the Sith powers)." (Chapter Four: Echoes of the Sith, pg. 50)
It draws a clear distinction that what he had acquired from Sadow was exclusive to Nadd and himself.[/B]
I'm not sure what your point here is, either. Mace Windu invented a form as well, Vaapad, which is regarded as "the deadliest" and "most demanding" of lightsaber forms; one has to be a "high end master of multiple forms" to even attempt to master Vaapad. Windu was also the youngest member of the Jedi Council in history prior to Anakin's ascent (which was only given due to Palpatine's influence). This form allowed him to go toe-to-toe with the aforementioned Palpatine, who was powerful enough to dismember three of the Order's most celebrated swordsmen -- one of whom was capable of outdueling General Grievous -- in ten seconds.I see nothing in what you've posted that would suggest Kun's skills are "at least" on par with Windu's. [/B]
zOMG, equip your spectacles! 😛
I'd argue Kun's technical abilities are shown to be more impressive when you consider Windu didn't build his form from total scratch; it was an extension of Juyo and combined properties of other forms. Kun had a lightsaber design that would have had absolutely no background in bladed combat, thus his creation of an appropriate form would have required much more technical brilliance than Windu's. Add to the fact that he mastered that form within six months of inventing it, as well as mastered other saber forms in less than 10 years (padawans didn't start until their teens according to most accounts in those days).
Matching Qel-Droma, who is one of the greatest swordsman in the mythos, most certainly deserves attention. I would count fending off an enraged Jedi Master while being cut off from the Force entirely and being out of practice for more than a decade (and only having a decades worth of training to begin with) among the most skillful displays of swordsmanship in SW history, too.
Nothing Windu has done indicates that he's the outright superior.
To imply that Mace's demonstrated ingenuity with a lightsaber even approaches Exar's truly would be borderline retarded. Unlike Windu, Exar Kun invented his own form completely from scratch; it wasn't a mere "expansion" of an already existing form, and he didn't even have a template to work with as the weapon hadn't even existed until he created it [along with the form]. Windu on the other hand simply expanded on an already existing form, Juyo (to an undefined extent), a form which already required high level mastery of multiple forms and was the most technically demanding.
edit - and all that stuff too.
Originally posted by Advent
My point was established clearly: Mace Windu hasn't encountered any of the techniques demonstrated or known by Kun aside from Force lightning. His powers in the Force aren't shown to be anywhere remotely near Kun's own, leading me to believe that Windu would be overpowered.
Oh, absolutely. I wasn't trying to assert that Windu would be anything other than something by which Kun might amuse himself as regards a Force contest. But this isn't a strict Force match.
What I had said was "Unlike against Sidious", which could be more clearly translated into, "Unlike the duel against Sidious, where only one, blockable Force power was used".
That's much clearer, thank you.
That's largely irrelevant considering he didn't use that unsubstantiated "knowledge" (of what? Offensive techniques? History? Alchemy?).
The point I was trying to make was that Windu has faced an opponent with access to a great arsenal of Force powers and still defeated him.
"Far more powerful"? That's an overstatement. And while he may be "more powerful" (in what way? Telekinesis? Entirely?), that doesn't make Kun any less deadly.
No, it doesn't. And I'm not trying to assert that because he has defeated Sidious he will defeat Kun, but it was a reminder: Windu has taken on someone whom canon regards as more powerful and dangerous than Kun. The tools he used to defeat that Sith Lord will be present when he takes on this one.
Your essentially defeating your point here (though I'm not sure what you were getting at to begin with).
I wasn't arguing with you to begin with; merely seeking clarification.
I find it a stretch to believe a Jedi would know ancient Sith techniques that had been hidden for millenia on end to begin with.
That assumes that Jedi are ignorant of Sith doctrine and technique.
But I'll provide a direct quote, which is in reference to his Force techniques:
Thank you. But what Sith teachings is that statement referring to?
zOMG, equip your spectacles! 😛I'd argue Kun's technical abilities are shown to be more impressive when you consider Windu didn't build his form from total scratch; it was an extension of Juyo and combined properties of other forms. Kun had a lightsaber design that would have had absolutely no background in bladed combat, thus his creation of an appropriate form would have required much more technical brilliance than Windu's. Add to the fact that he mastered that form within six months of inventing it, as well as mastered other saber forms in less than 10 years (padawans didn't start until their teens according to most accounts in those days).
Matching Qel-Droma, who is one of the greatest swordsman in the mythos, most certainly deserves attention. I would count fending off an enraged Jedi Master while being cut off from the Force entirely and being out of practice for more than a decade (and only having a decades worth of training to begin with) among the most skillful displays of swordsmanship in SW history, too.
Nothing Windu has done indicates that he's the outright superior.
Understandably, but nothing you have provided has indicated that Kun is the outright superior. Matching Qel-Droma is impressive; but so is matching Dooku and Sidious. In fact, I'd argue matching them is much more impressive than Qel-Droma. And while creating a unique form is impressive, how are we to gauge its effectiveness against that of Vaapad? Vaapad is considered "the deadliest" and "most demanding" form, suggesting that it is more impressive than any of Kun's skills.
Originally posted by Gideon
That assumes that Jedi are ignorant of Sith doctrine and technique.
Well, let's consider that the Jedi in the PT era hadn't seen the Sith in a millennium; most of the Jedi were trained for diplomacy rather than fending off dark side techniques. While I don't doubt the higher ups like Windu, the rest of the Council, etc. would have been familiar with some of the more modern abilities, it stands to reason they wouldn't have had access to ancient Sith teachings that had been considered lost throughout the ages. Especially since most Sith themselves knew nothing of them.
Thank you. But what Sith teachings is that statement referring to?
Basically all the techniques known shown by Sadow, Nadd, or Aleema. That would include: ripping spirits from a victim's body (seen against post-DE Luke, who had no defense for it - not even raw power), the ability to incinerate a person from the inside out (Gantoris), a Force drain variant, assorted Sith magics such as control over another's body, energy blasts, and illusions (demonstrated against Aleema and the Senate), and so on and so forth.
Of course, that's only a taste of what Kun has up his sleeve. I believe the TOTJ Sourcebook lists and defines a lot more powers that were known to Sadow/Nadd, and thus Exar.
Understandably, but nothing you have provided has indicated that Kun is the outright superior. Matching Qel-Droma is impressive; but so is matching Dooku and Sidious. In fact, I'd argue matching them is much more impressive than Qel-Droma. And while creating a unique form is impressive, how are we to gauge its effectiveness against that of Vaapad? Vaapad is considered "the deadliest" and "most demanding" form, suggesting that it is more impressive than any of Kun's skills.
I wasn't suggesting Exar would defeat Windu in a pure contest of blades. Just that, in that category, it's very close to call, but that Exar could definitely hold his own.
Originally posted by Nebarix
I can verify that. 😄
Verify what?