Plo Koon and Exar Kun versus Mace Windu and RotJ Luke Skywalker

Started by Nebarix3 pages

The post two posts above that post.

It's stated in Shatterpoint specifically btw.

Originally posted by Advent
Nebar Foxis

😄

What happens when you say those two names really quickly together?

Originally posted by Advent
[B]Well, let's consider that the Jedi in the PT era hadn't seen the Sith in a millennium; most of the Jedi were trained for diplomacy rather than fending off dark side techniques. While I don't doubt the higher ups like Windu, the rest of the Council, etc. would have been familiar with some of the more modern abilities, it stands to reason they wouldn't have had access to ancient Sith teachings that had been considered lost throughout the ages. Especially since most Sith themselves knew nothing of them.

Stands to reason? Given they had access to things like Sith Holocrons predating Exar, then it stands to reason they may not be as unfamiliar as you might think.
Considering Palpatine himself had access to the Telos Holocron, which had Naga himself as a gatekeepers, and had it at least when he was training Dooku, given he recorded Dooku as a gatekeeper as well? Then he certainly does have Sadow's knowledge


Basically all the techniques known shown by Sadow, Nadd, or Aleema. That would include: ripping spirits from a victim's body (seen against post-DE Luke, who had no defense for it - not even raw power),

When he was already struck by it and hit from both sides. Also never even hinted at to be some long lost technique

the ability to incinerate a person from the inside out (Gantoris),

Never even hinted to be some mythical, lost technique

a Force drain variant, assorted Sith magics such as control over another's body, energy blasts, and illusions (demonstrated against Aleema and the Senate), and so on and so forth.

None of which are any use against a Jedi Master in straight on combat it seems, except the energy blasts

Of course, that's only a taste of what Kun has up his sleeve. I believe the TOTJ Sourcebook lists and defines a lot more powers that were known to Sadow/Nadd, and thus Exar.

And by extension, all of that is known to Palpatine. In fact, that's not even close to the sum of his knowledge and he's had far more time to study it then Exar


I wasn't suggesting Exar would defeat Windu in a pure contest of blades. Just that, in that category, it's very close to call, but that Exar could definitely hold his own.

Close, sure. Exar winning? Probably not

Why does everything get turned into a Palpatine issue? He's not even in his thread!

Stands to reason? Given they had access to things like Sith Holocrons predating Exar, then it stands to reason they may not be as unfamiliar as you might think.

Care to substantiate what was contained in these supposed holocrons, Lightsnake? For all we know, it was Massassi children's crappy artwork.

The Sith and those knowledgeable in their lore have always considered a large portion of their abilities "forgotten". Forgive me if I don't see Jedi, ignorant of the Sith for a millenium, finding out the most prized secrets of one of the most powerful ancient Sith.

Considering Palpatine himself

Sidious possibly knowing a few abilities somehow supports the Jedi possibly knowing them? That doesn't make any sense, especially since less than a handful of Jedi fought Sidious, and never has he displayed anything extraordinary in those fights.

Also, "most Sith themselves knew nothing of them" means just that. Most. Not all (giving Sidious the benefit of the doubt partially).

had access to the Telos Holocron, which had Naga himself as a gatekeepers, and had it at least when he was training Dooku, given he recorded Dooku as a gatekeeper as well? Then he certainly does have Sadow's knowledge

That's a huge stretch as there's no information as to what was actually in the holocron. Automatically assuming it had every single Sith secret that Sadow knew is baseless. Did it possess the entirety of Sidious', Ajunta Pall's, and Bane's knowledge, too? If so, that's a pretty big holocron...and leap of faith.

And all the techniques mentioned were ancient Sith techniques that only Sadow (and Simus?) would have known (and by extension, those who learned from his teachings). By right, they are "mythical, lost techniques" considering it's stated that "it's unlikely any records survived on Yavin IV or otherwise", a line immediately following my previous quote from Jedi Academy Sourcebook (same ch, pg). The fact that they "died with Kun" indicates as much.

Originally posted by Advent
Why does everything get turned into a Palpatine issue? He's not even in his thread!

QFT.

Btw, Palpatine never FROZE A CREEK.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
QFT.

Btw, Palpatine never FROZE A CREEK.

But did he ever need to do so?

Yes. Every creek needs to be frozen. It's Plo's duty.

Originally posted by Advent
Why does everything get turned into a Palpatine issue? He's not even in his thread!

Well, Mace took on a Sith Lord with all of the knowledge of Exar and then a lot more. Relevant to how he fights Exar, no?


Care to substantiate what was contained in these supposed holocrons, Lightsnake? For all we know, it was Massassi children's crappy artwork.

I just love how whenever it comes to a side you argue against, somehow, there's nothing remotely substantial. We all know Sith go through the exceptionally difficult process of creating holocrons to put nothing of actual value inside them, don't we? Considering Volfe Karkko turned to the Dark Side studying one of those Holocrons, and Nikkos Tyrris later studied from the same one, and Dooku himself was known to have learned some Sith teachings from them it's a fair bet that perhaps they weren't just art enthusiasts

The Sith and those knowledgeable in their lore have always considered a large portion of their abilities "forgotten". Forgive me if I don't see Jedi, ignorant of the Sith for a millenium, finding out the most prized secrets of one of the most powerful ancient Sith.

Yes, because having a wall full of their most treasured teaching devices, which are only too happy to spill secrets to corrupt Jedi, which consisted of Adas's and quite probably Nihilus's?


Sidious possibly knowing a few abilities somehow supports the Jedi possibly knowing them? That doesn't make any sense, especially since less than a handful of Jedi fought Sidious, and never has he displayed anything extraordinary in those fights.

Point trying to make, all of the knowledge Exar had? Palpatine had all that and much more and Mace was able to take him on.
And I wonder how, exactly, the Jedi having the time to study the Sith's most prized artifacts is somehow going to teach you less than six months of studying Naga Sadow's stuff

Also, "most Sith themselves knew nothing of them" means just that. Most. Not all (giving Sidious the benefit of the doubt partially).

It does, however, assume that what you were ascribing to Exar was only to be found in what Sadow provided.


That's a huge stretch as there's no information as to what was actually in the holocron. Automatically assuming it had every single Sith secret that Sadow knew is baseless.

No, it isn't. Sadow is one of the gatekeepers, meaning it's like Naga Sadow himself would be teaching you firsthand. Palpatine refers to possessing Naga's knowledge for himself and not sharing it like Nadd and Exar did.

Did it possess the entirety of Sidious', Ajunta Pall's, and Bane's knowledge, too? If so, that's a pretty big holocron...and leap of faith.

Considering that's how Sith holocrons WORK, yes it did. The gatekeepers make an imprint that has all of their knowledge at the time. Hell, Bane is even able to show Revan's teachings from his own memories when he made his Holocron

And all the techniques mentioned were ancient Sith techniques that only Sadow (and Simus?) would have known (and by extension, those who learned from his teachings).

Proof only they would have known them?

By right, they are "mythical, lost techniques" considering it's stated that "it's unlikely any records survived on Yavin IV or otherwise", a line immediately following my previous quote from Jedi Academy Sourcebook (same ch, pg). The fact that they "died with Kun" indicates as much.

Let's see you substantiate any proof those techniques were part of that resume.

And given that Naga's knowledge is very much alive in the form of his gatekeeper, seems that's incorrect.

And further problem is little of what we've seen with Kun as a swordsman indicates he'll be able to take out Mace

Janus
QFT.

Btw, Palpatine never FROZE A CREEK.

I was about to suggest you make this your theme, but somewhat disturbingly you beat me to it.

Originally posted by Advent
[No, don't just be sorry,] think for one [f/ucking] second. [What the f/uck are you doing? Are you professional or not? Do I f/ucking walk around and rip - no, shut the f/uck up Bruce, do I - no! NO! Don't shut me up! Am I going to walk around and rip your f/ucking lights down? In the middle of a scene? Then why the f/uck are you walking right through, 'a-tada-tada' like this in the background, what the f/uck is it with you? What don't you f/ucking understand? You got any f/ucking idea about - Hey! It's f/ucking distracting having somebody saying Mace solos in the middle of the f/ucking day.

GIMME A F/UCKING ANSWER!

It's what she really meant.

Originally posted by Eminence
I was about to suggest you make this your theme, but somewhat disturbingly you beat me to it.

My work here is done.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Yes. Every creek needs to be frozen. It's Plo's duty.

Why? When a bridge will work just as well.

Does a bridge require excessive use of the power of the Force and ice combined? I think not.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Does a bridge require excessive use of the power of the Force and ice combined? I think not.

What if it's a Force-created-ice-bridge? 😖hifty:

Then you know that Plo Koon made it.after he froze a creek somewhere.

Is he limited to creeks?

Well, depends. Rivers are fair game too.

as are creaks.