Silver surfer vs Flash (twist)

Originally posted by Space M ummy
it isn't? I was under the impression that speed and velocity were a measure of power and energy. you want to steal "speed", you need to drain one's energy to move.

and don't give me "the speed force" since surfer is a marvel character and his speed is completely unrelated to how the DC universe speed force works. it doesn't exist in 616. You want to slow surfer down to a snail's pace, you're going to have to drain the energy reserves that allow him to propel himself that fast.

combine that with the fact that surfer and his board have two completely separate (and equally massive) power reserves, and this isn't happening.

he's stolen speed from other people without draining their energy reserves. it's just speed he's taking, nothing else.

good ol comic book science.

Originally posted by Raoul
he's stolen speed from other people without draining their energy reserves. it's just speed he's taking, nothing else.

good ol comic book science.

Because that's what it would be like attempting to steal SS's speed.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Sure. Which is why he could steal, say, Superman's speed. Because its a physical trait. But someone who is powered by something...like, could he steal Captain Atom's speed?

Because that's what it would be like attempting to steal SS's speed.

that's true. i'm not saying flash can or can't steal norrin's speed. i was just saying that i don't believe the example posted was necessarily the same thing.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Sure. Which is why he could steal, say, Superman's speed. Because its a physical trait. But someone who is powered by something...like, could he steal Captain Atom's speed?

Because that's what it would be like attempting to steal SS's speed.

What about WW? She's powered by gods. Yet, Flash was able to do it.

I'd say this is more of a toss up.

Originally posted by cloud102
What about WW? She's powered by gods. Yet, Flash was able to do it.

I'd say this is more of a toss up.

wonder legs, my friend.

Originally posted by Raoul
that's true. i'm not saying flash can or can't steal norrin's speed. i was just saying that i don't believe the example posted was necessarily the same thing.

He's stolen speed from characters in DC, where it's established that speed is governed by the speed force. Since wally can manipulate speed force energy, this lets him lend or drain "speed".

The speed force does not exist in 616, and marvel characters don't draw on it. Norrin's speed is derived from the power cosmic, which wally can neither manipulate nor drain. He wants to slow norrin down, he'd have to remove the PC/drain norrin's energy in GENERAL, since the power that lends him his speed and the power he uses for everything else is the same source.

This is further backed up by JLA/Avengers where in the absence of the speed force, wally was virtually powerless. He couldn't maintain his OWN speed, much less drain it from anyone else around him. If the absence of the speed force means his powers don't work at all in 616, what makes you think he'll be able to drain speed from a marvel character? answer: he can't- the source of speed between the two is simply too different.

get it?

Originally posted by Space M ummy
He's stolen speed from characters in DC, where it's established that speed is governed by the speed force. Since wally can manipulate speed force energy, this lets him lend or drain "speed".

The speed force does not exist in 616, and marvel characters don't draw on it. Norrin's speed is derived from the [b]power cosmic, which wally can neither manipulate nor drain. He wants to slow norrin down, he'd have to remove the PC/drain norrin's energy in GENERAL, since the power that lends him his speed and the power he uses for everything else is the same source.

get it? [/B]

i disagree. 😬

Originally posted by Space M ummy
you want to steal "speed", you need to drain one's energy to move.

put glue on floor => that dont drain your energy but your still slowed down 😛

anyway =>

Originally posted by SoulDevourer
ok even if Wally can steal SS speed hows he gonna hurt SS? with the IMP? lol

Originally posted by Enyalus
What about Grape Kool-Aid?

ooooh yeh even better!

Originally posted by Raoul
i disagree. 😬

see the above edit, where i pointed out that JLA/Avengers established that wally's speed related abilities don't work in the absence of the speed force.

if it was as simple as "draining speed" to gain more, or even gain an advantage, why didn't he use this tactic vs. quicksilver?

the only plausible answer is that wally isn't draining "speed" in a general sense, but is instead specifically manipulating and using energies of "The speed force" SPECIFICALLY, which norrin doesn't use.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
see the above edit, where i pointed out that JLA/Avengers established that wally's speed related abilities don't work in the absence of the speed force.

if it was as simple as "draining speed" to gain more, or even gain an advantage, why didn't he use this tactic vs. quicksilver?

the only plausible answer is that wally isn't draining "speed" in a general sense, but is instead specifically manipulating and using energies of "The speed force" SPECIFICALLY, which norrin doesn't use.

JLA/Avengers isn't something we use on the forum. 😛

Originally posted by Raoul
JLA/Avengers isn't something we use on the forum. 😛

😆 😆 😆 😆

are you new? JLA/Avengers is MOST CERTAINLY canon on the forums.

edit: looks like this was changed recently, since there are a lot of disputes about it. I'll leave this one up to the mods to decide

Originally posted by Space M ummy
😆 😆 😆 😆

are you new? JLA/Avengers is MOST CERTAINLY canon on the forums.

edit: looks like this was changed recently, since there are a lot of disputes about it. I'll leave this one up to the mods to decide

umm...

Originally posted by Digi
Debating Format

[b]No Non-canon Sources
Non-canon sources are invalid for evidence. With rare exceptions, comics not in continuity such as Elseworlds, What Ifs, or alternate universes are not used for evidence in debates of a particular mainstream character.

A canon source is one that is regarded as being 'in continuity'. In the example of Star Trek; instances from the series and movies can be used, but books are definitely out. Comic book crossovers are usually unusable as they ignore common sense most of the time (DC vs. Marvel is certainly unusable in some cases in our debates!).

This includes JLA/Avengers. Canon or not, people just aren't going to agree on it in most cases. Besides, there should be plenty of other comics with which to make your point.

This principle extends to characters with multiple versions, alternate timelines, etc. Unless specified by the thread starter, only current-version canon feats are allowed. [/B]

and yes, WE did decide. 😛

btw is JLA/avenger more DC or more Marvel? (if u get my drift)

Originally posted by Raoul
umm...

and yes, WE did decide. 😛

ok, then other than simply "i disagree", feel free to make your point that flash can drain the surfer, using other examples of him draining non-dc characters, who don't use the speed force.

hahaha pwn3d big grin

hey, not my problem if you change the rules on me.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
ok, then other than simply "i disagree", feel free to make your point that flash can drain the surfer, using other examples of him draining non-dc characters, who don't use the speed force.

Originally posted by Raoul
that's true. i'm not saying flash can or can't steal norrin's speed. i was just saying that i don't believe the example posted was necessarily the same thing.

because i disagree with the interpretation of the speed force. not the other stuff.

Originally posted by cloud102
What about WW? She's powered by gods. Yet, Flash was able to do it.

I'd say this is more of a toss up.

Originally posted by Enyalus
She's not directly empowered by them. Boom, they brought her to life, gave her abilities, and viola. Her powers are physical. She's not powered by, say, Gamma. Or the Quantum Field. Or the Power Cosmic.

this also brings up an interesting point. Let's approach this another way.

Let's say the flash isn't absorbing "speed force energy" specifically. That leaves really only one option, that he's draining "kinetic" energy- energy in motion, energy used to move, etc. (as opposed to "potential" energy, which would be energy stored but not yet in active use.)

Norrin Radd's powers in their entirety derive from the power cosmic- i.e. remove it, he's powerless. His muscles aren't supernaturally developed, he doesn't have an X-gene, all stats are a direct result of the PC coursing through his body, which amplifies everything. Kinetic or potential, ALL of that power is going to have the same source- a gigantic pool of power cosmic stored up in norrin's body.

therefore, shouldn't it be valid to assume that to drain his "speed", or kinetic energy, you'd need a way to manipulate or drain those massive power cosmic reserves? It doesn't make any kind of sense that speed alone could be drained if all of his powers share the same source. There isn't a fragment of the PC labeled "speed."- it's all the same.

The flash, should he attempt to do so, would end up attempting to drain not one but two (remember, board has a separate supply) impossibly vast stores of power cosmic in an attempt to slow norrin down, and likely either fail, or kill himself in the process.

So IMHO it's either one or the other- Flash is draining specifically speed force energy (which doesn't exist in the MU and surfer doesn't use), or he's draining kinetic energy in GENERAL, which surfer simply has far, far too much of to be a viable tactic.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
Let's say the flash isn't absorbing "speed force energy" specifically. That leaves really only one option, that he's draining "kinetic" energy- energy in motion, energy used to move, etc. (as opposed to "potential" energy, which would be energy stored but not yet in active use.)

Norrin Radd's powers in their entirety derive from the power cosmic- i.e. remove it, he's powerless. His muscles aren't supernaturally developed, he doesn't have an X-gene, all stats are a direct result of the PC coursing through his body, which amplifies everything. Kinetic or potential, ALL of that power is going to have the same source- a gigantic pool of power cosmic stored up in norrin's body.

therefore, shouldn't it be valid to assume that to drain his "speed", or kinetic energy, you'd need a way to manipulate or drain those massive power cosmic reserves? It doesn't make any kind of sense that speed alone could be drained if all of his powers share the same source. There isn't a fragment of the PC labeled "speed."- it's all the same.

So thanks. lol

Originally posted by Enyalus
That's what I wanted to say, but was too lazy to type it out. 🙂

So thanks. lol

sure. as a bonus, here's that scan I referred to where quasar drained a sun's worth of power from the surfer and hit him with it. not only did this not hurt the SS, norrin didn't even realize that an entire star's worth of power was missing from him in the first place.

Wally might be able to drain your average speedster, but the surfer appears to be sitting on a substantially greater power supply.

surfer v. quasar