Silver surfer vs Flash (twist)

Originally posted by Space M ummy
He's stolen speed from characters in DC, where it's established that speed is governed by the speed force. Since wally can manipulate speed force energy, this lets him lend or drain "speed".

The speed force does not exist in 616, and marvel characters don't draw on it. Norrin's speed is derived from the [b]power cosmic, which wally can neither manipulate nor drain. He wants to slow norrin down, he'd have to remove the PC/drain norrin's energy in GENERAL, since the power that lends him his speed and the power he uses for everything else is the same source.

This is further backed up by JLA/Avengers where in the absence of the speed force, wally was virtually powerless. He couldn't maintain his OWN speed, much less drain it from anyone else around him. If the absence of the speed force means his powers don't work at all in 616, what makes you think he'll be able to drain speed from a marvel character? answer: he can't- the source of speed between the two is simply too different.

get it? [/B]

Originally posted by Juntai
They meet on common ground in the forum. The Speed Force is the source of all kinetic energy. Intrisically tied to the concept of motion in the universe.

it's the source of all kinetic energy in *DC*. It doesn't exist in marvel, and no entity in marvel has used or even heard of the speed force. It would be like claiming that all mutants in marvel have X-genes, so surfer can turn off metahuman powers in DC, since he's done it to mutants. Doesn't work that way, since DC metahumans don't get their powers from X-genes.

if they're meeting on common ground...neutral territory...it would be an environment that doesn't favor either combatant. If this fight took place in..say..the ultraverse or Dark Horse...(also neutral ground) kinetic energy wouldn't be tied to the speed force, since it doesn't exist there, and only in DC.

This means that Flash would have access to his abilities (Speed, IMPs, etc), but there's no grounds to retcon the origin of surfer's powers to draw on the speed force when that's never been the case. If flash can't drain the PC to power down surfer, (or even generic "kinetic energy"😉 then he's out of luck.

as pointed out before, surfer's reservoir of power is TOO VAST for flash to drain if he's just trying to drain kinetic energy "in general", and since he doesn't use the speed force, draining "just speed" from the PC makes no sense.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
it's the source of all kinetic energy in *DC*. It doesn't exist in marvel, and no entity in marvel has used or even heard of the speed force. It would be like claiming that all mutants in marvel have X-genes, so surfer can turn off metahuman powers in DC, since he's done it to mutants. Doesn't work that way, since DC metahumans don't get their powers from X-genes.

if they're meeting on common ground...neutral territory...it would be an environment that doesn't favor either combatant. If this fight took place in..say..the ultraverse or Dark Horse...(also neutral ground) kinetic energy wouldn't be tied to the speed force, since it doesn't exist there, and only in DC.

This means that Flash would have access to his abilities (Speed, IMPs, etc), but there's no grounds to retcon the origin of surfer's powers to draw on the speed force when that's never been the case. If flash can't drain the PC to power down surfer, (or even generic "kinetic energy"😉 then he's out of luck.

as pointed out before, surfer's reservoir of power is TOO VAST for flash to drain if he's just trying to drain kinetic energy "in general", and since he doesn't use the speed force, draining "just speed" from the PC makes no sense.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Read the forum rules. You'll understand what he is talking about.

read em. are you referring to this part?

Also, all characters, regardless of where the fight takes place, or what universe/medium they are native to, will have full access to their abilities at optimum efficiency as they are depicted in their native universes. It will be assumed that each character fights as they are normally presented regardless of battle locale. This means that, for example, Flash will in fact have SpeedForce abilities if the battle took place in Marvel Manhattan. Battles will always take place on an assumed equal playing field.

as I pointed out before, I'm not saying because the fight takes place on neutral ground, flash doesn't have the abilities he usually does. He has them in full.

What I'm saying is that in specifying that "all kinetic energy derives from the speed force" in a neutral setting is actually a disadvantage to any character for whom this is not usually the case. you're throwing a handicap at surfer where he usually doesn't have one.

if we're taking all characters to have full access to the range of their abilities regardless of location, then this includes the surfer- you want to drain down his speed in his native universe, you're going to have to do a generic kinetic energy drain, or drain the PC specifically. suddenly stating that he uses the speed force, and speed specifically can be drained when he never has done this, and this can't be done in his native universe is a handicap, NOT "neutral ground."

Note that this argument would not work for DC-centric characters, as the kinetic energy of DC speedsters/characters is natively tied to the speed force, and flash has mastered the manipulation of that energy.

neutral ground?

then Wally lose his speed (no SF)
and Norin revert to plane human (no PC)

sucky fight 😛

Well anyway, speed force wont work.

Also, all characters, regardless of where the fight takes place, or what universe/medium they are native to, will have full access to their abilities at optimum efficiency as they are depicted in their native universes. It will be assumed that each character fights as they are normally presented regardless of battle locale. This means that, for example, Flash will in fact have SpeedForce abilities if the battle took place in Marvel Manhattan. Battles will always take place on an assumed equal playing field.

This merely states that, yes. The flash will have the speedforce but it does NOT state that Flash's opponents' powers must work as if it was in HIS (DC) universe.

Meaning Speedforce, yes. Stealy speed, no.

the clown's around you gotta shut it down

here's what you do

get the clown inside the house

shut down the house you shut down the clown

SS

SS 10/10..i don't think Wally can steal SS speed..SS got the PC to amp his speed back if someone makes him slow..and he is far more powerful..

Wally.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
this also brings up an interesting point. Let's approach this another way.

Let's say the flash isn't absorbing "speed force energy" specifically. That leaves really only one option, that he's draining "kinetic" energy- energy in motion, energy used to move, etc. (as opposed to "potential" energy, which would be energy stored but not yet in active use.)

Norrin Radd's powers in their entirety derive from the power cosmic- i.e. remove it, he's powerless. His muscles aren't supernaturally developed, he doesn't have an X-gene, all stats are a direct result of the PC coursing through his body, which amplifies everything. Kinetic or potential, ALL of that power is going to have the same source- a gigantic pool of power cosmic stored up in norrin's body.

therefore, shouldn't it be valid to assume that to drain his "speed", or kinetic energy, you'd need a way to manipulate or drain those massive power cosmic reserves? It doesn't make any kind of sense that speed alone could be drained if all of his powers share the same source. There isn't a fragment of the PC labeled "speed."- it's all the same.

The flash, should he attempt to do so, would end up attempting to drain not one but two (remember, board has a separate supply) impossibly vast stores of power cosmic in an attempt to slow norrin down, and likely either fail, or kill himself in the process.

So IMHO it's either one or the other- Flash is draining specifically speed force energy (which doesn't exist in the MU and surfer doesn't use), or he's draining kinetic energy in GENERAL, which surfer simply has far, far too much of to be a viable tactic.

Agreed 100%. Another thing that i think should be taken into account are surfers matter manipulation powers and control of his bodily energies and molecules. By "stealing speed" flash is simply attempting to reduce surfers molecular motion to zero. Now for that to work he would have to enact greater control of the surfers molecules than he (surfer) would. And considering that the surfers speed isnt dependent on the speedforce then that is certainly not going to happen.

SS wins this all day.

Flash.

Assuming it's Barry.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Flash.

Assuming it's Barry.

Originally posted by carver9
Its wally

Wally > Barry...if Wally can't win..there's no way Barry can..

I don't agree. Barry only has PC feats to go on, which are ridiculous, and now he's the Black Flash, so that's above Wally, too.

He's not the BF anymore..he's back to normal when he ran back to the speedforce...

Originally posted by Slaanesh
He's not the BF anymore..he's back to normal when he ran back to the speedforce...

hem..now i remember..even back in the speedforce..the guy that touch him still turn to dust..maybe he'll beat Zoom after this and turn back to normal..who knows..

but what i was trying to say is..normal wally > normal barry...