Highfather tapped into the source to do that,darkseid always has been highfathers equal so if highfather can do something there is no reason darkseid can't,the source is allowed to be used by them as a power source so its perfectly relevant,otherwise I guess we are taking the power cosmic from people?lemme guess captain atom isn't allowed to use the quantom field anymore right?
ALL NEW GODS ARE CONNECTED TO THE SOURCE. The goddamn Omega Force and Alpha Force are part of the Source. That is a bullshit excuse and you're just lowballing because you refuse to admit DS might actually be a skyfather with feats exceeding ****ing Odin.
How about Mantis, or empowering Kalibak, or Validus, or manifesting an avatar from the Source wall using more power than Apokolips generates in an entire year?
Originally posted by vlaaad12345
Highfather tapped into the source to do that,darkseid always has been highfathers equal so if highfather can do something there is no reason darkseid can't,the source is allowed to be used by them as a power source so its perfectly relevant,otherwise I guess we are taking the power cosmic from people?lemme guess captain atom isn't allowed to use the quantom field anymore right?
Highfather has his Wonder Staff which gives him a direct link to the Source. Darkseid doesn't have that. He needed a machine in order to breech the Source Wall and tap into it. Darkseid has his Omega Powers. Highfather has the link to the Source via his Wonder Staff. Highfather was able to create Takion via that link. Darkseid was maybe still technically 'dead' when he created Stayne. Which explains that connection to the Source and the ability to manipulate it. Regardless, this is Darkseid vs. Bor, not Darkseid using a one-time connection to the Source that is unexplained and very much open to interpretation to create a trans tiered character to fight Bor for him.
It could have also been strictly out of necessity. Highfather being good, it was necessary to have a Darkseid. Just like New Genesis and Apokolips. When Takion was made, perhaps the Source knew it was necessary to have a dark opposite to balance it. *shrug*
Originally posted by vlaaad12345
All new gods are connected to the source
I also understand that typically Darkseid does not have the ability to manipulate the Source on his own. See NG v3 #1-2, see what happens at the end of the S'ivva fight, see Genesis, see what happens in the Superman/Batman comic when he's stuck to the Source Wall, etc.
Bottom line is that it was not Darkseid's personal power which created Stayne. It was the Source's power. And its not really a relevant feat when arguing power for him.
Originally posted by vlaaad12345
As soon as you prove he created stayne the exact same way highfather created takion and that he used the source and not his own powers to do it ill take that argument seriously otherwise its darkseids own power and feat.
Will it make a difference? I'm not wasting my time if not.
Originally posted by gogogadgetgo
base on bor's one showing, probably darkseid.he did lose to current thor. seeing as they both fought all out and the victory could have gone either way. they're probably almost equal in power.
Darkseid is physically outclassed here. His OE is the saving grace which makes this battle interesting.
Originally posted by Enyalus
While holding back, Bor broke Thor's ribs with one physical blow. Prior to that, on another swing from Bor, Thor said that without the Odinforce it would have killed him. What do you think that's going to do to Darkseid? And when Bor unleashed his full power, Thor could barely walk forward....Onslaught/Mindless Hulk battle style.Darkseid is physically outclassed here. His OE is the saving grace which makes this battle interesting.
i dont recall bor as holding back when he broke thor's ribs and i was re-reading the book last night.
probably the same thing it did to thor. brake a rib or two but still be able to get up and fight.
and as for bor unleashing his full power, i call pis/cis on thor not using the odin force to counter bor's unleashed power. he had to again, rely on mjolnir and forget that he could amp hisself up with the odin force
Originally posted by Enyalus
It was not "Darkseid's own hand" - it was somekind of ethereal, astral-projected oversized hand. And again. It said that Takion was created from the Source. Stayne, being Takion's exact opposite, would also have been created from the Source, rather than from Darkseid's own personal power.It isn't a feat of Darkseid's power. And it has no relevance in a forum battle.
Highfather created Takion with his own power and Darkseid did the same with Stayne. Both of them infused normal humans with their powers, transforming them into conduits to the Source.
Highfather didn't use his staff he used his Alpha Force and DS used the Omega Force. You said it yourself, they don't have the ability to manipulate the Source directly but they could use their power to create objects or beings more deeply connected to the Source like Motherboxes, Takion and Stayne.
Originally posted by Allankles
Highfather created Takion with his own power and Darkseid did the same with Stayne. Both of them infused normal humans with their powers, transforming them into conduits to the Source.
Highfather took a human soul and gave it a connection to the Source with his own power. Darkseid did the same to Stayne. Neither Takion nor Stayne are infused with any of Highfather's or Darkseid's own power. They are pure Source and made from The Source.
Thus, it isn't a reflection of Darkseid's power that he was able to create a trans-tiered entity. Because that entity doesn't carry any of Darkseid's power. Darkseid has nothing to do with the power that Stayne wields. Only the means of getting her to that point. It isn't a reflection of his power.
Now you make think I'm lowballing him, but I am not. Physically, Darkseid is about peak high herald. Around Superman's level, around Orion's level. Maybe more or maybe less. Durability-wise I'd put him in the mid herald tier. He had his eyes swollen shut from Superman's punches and had his arm broken by a sunamped Superman....I'd like to point out that Wonder Woman also had her arm broken by sunamped Superman. And I don't see their durability being too vastly different. So, strength-wise definitely peak herald, durability wise about mid herald...
The "gamebreaker", as TP has said, is his Omega Force. The ability to one-shot kill most beings is definitely a mid-to-high skyfather trait. You wanna average out those mid herald, high herald, and mid skyfather level traits and you'd probably come out with pre-FC Darkseid being about trans to possibly low-skyfather level in power.
Now, moving on to Bor, we kinda have to look at current Thor. One recent feat of his was the ownage of that Super Skrull amped by Stormbreaker who attacked Asgard. She was powerful enough to shrug off three blows from BRB wielding Mjolnir, then choke him to the point of unconsciousness with one arm while holding off the Warrior's Three with the other and toss him casually away, almost killing him in the process. Gotta put her around trans level, as I've never seen BRB owned so hard and effortlessly, even when facing Blood & Thunder Thor. Thor comes in, tanks a cosmic blast from Stormbreaker, then throws himself in front of a thrown Stormbreaker charged to destroy the city...then comes back and basically owns her with one blast and one physical blow. Shows a lot about both his durability and his strength. Then you have his fight with a Balder-empowered Destroyer Armor. In his classic form, a human-empowered Destroyer killed him with the disintegrator beam. Balder guiding the Destroyer would be even more powerful. And Thor also notes that the Destroyer was attacking more furiously than he had ever seen. Yet current Thor was able to tank the disintegrator beam's energies without any damage to his body. Not only that, but he was able to match the Destroyer physically. The Destroyer is a bonafide trans tier. So obviously current Thor had at least a decent upgrade in strength and a huge upgrade in durability.
Onto Bor now...who with one blow was able to break Current Thor's ribs, even with this vast durability increase. And, to reiterate an earlier post's point...Bor was holding back his power at this point. He hadn't gone into 'God Unleashed' mode yet. Thor saying that if he hadn't had the Odinforce he would've been killed by that blow is clearly no exaggeration, because as we see from the Destroyer example (Disintegrator Beam killing Classic Thor, not leaving a scratch on Current Thor), such an example had already happened. Bor's physical strength is clearly, then, at least mid-skyfather level. His power output is probably also at least mid-skyfather level, considering that this Thor could barely walk forward from the amount of power Bor was unleashing, and Thor's statement that he'd never felt such power before. And Bor uses a weapon capable of matching Mjolnir's might...that halberd that he has. So while Darkseid has a one-shot game-ender, one blow from Bor is also going to remove Darkseid from the fight.
And Bor's halberd is probably more than capable of blocking DS's finder beams, if DS launches them straight at him or if Bor is fast enough to wield his weapon properly. And I would think he is. Thor and Bor charged each other at an even speed, implying that speed-wise, they're equals or close to it. And Thor with the Odinforce has easily parried the Norse God of Speed's rapier attacks as well as - already mentioned - catching up to and overtaking a thrown Stormbreaker.
Since they both have the capability to end the match with one shot, I gave them an even split, 5/10 each way. Now, I don't think I'm being biased, because while they both have that...Bor is physically superior. But hey...whatever. 😛
On the other hand, Wonder Woman and Barda got stopped by the Furies, and Darkseid could probably knock out the whole group of Furies with a single backhand, if he connected to all of them.
Lobo couldn't even phase Darkseid. And even Hell fears Lobo.
The Superman comparison is a tough one, Superman slides up the scales a lot when he needs to. He's a -lot- more powerful than he lets on sometimes.
Nice post though. Good to see someone putting some thought into it.
Originally posted by Juntai
On the other hand, Wonder Woman and Barda got stopped by the Furies, and Darkseid could probably knock out the whole group of Furies with a single backhand, if he connected to all of them.
Originally posted by Juntai
Lobo couldn't even phase Darkseid.
Originally posted by Juntai
Nice post though. Good to see someone putting some thought into it.
Originally posted by EnyalusThus, it isn't a reflection of Darkseid's power that he was able to create a trans-tiered entity. Because that entity doesn't carry any of Darkseid's power. Darkseid has nothing to do with the power that Stayne wields. Only the means of getting her to that point. It isn't a reflection of his power.
Stayne's capabilities are not a direct reflection of DS power but they are a reflection of the magnitude of his power i.e. they reflect just how much the Omega Force encompassess, allowing DS to create beings of great power Validus, Stayne, Mantis et al with fractions of his power.
The same goes for Highfather who transmuted Sanders into Takion with the Alpha Force.
Again, I didn't mean to say that Stayne/Takion's vast capabilities are a direct reflection of DS/Izaya's power but they do demonstrate the magnitude, the scale of their power that they can instantly transform any being into a conduit to the ultimate foundation of energy.