Good stuff then. As for the match itself? I dunno. Haven't read RoV or anything after the Clone Wars era, so I'm divided. Obi-Wan still has the advantage over anyone fighting Anakin in that he helped train him for 13 years, and he's one of the premier fighting Jedi of his era, although definitely not top tier. I'd say he has a good chance to manage Vader in combat. Force powers? Unless Vader has vastly improved, I'd say there's nothing to tell if they're still equals or not when it comes to application (not potential).
Originally posted by Janus MariusI doubt upon meeting Kenobi will even know it's Vader unless of course he reveals himself. And even if he does, Vader has obviously changed his lightsaber combat form through and through to fit his current state. It's not like Kenobi will know him as he did on Mustafar. Vader is levels stronger, physically that is and is used to fighting multiple Jedi opponents at once. Also, it's not as if Kenobi is Maul, Ventress, or Grievous. He won't use his speed b/c of the face that he is the Soresu master. He'll play defence, and that's not a good strategy against Vader. Vader will bombard Kenobi with barrages of unbearable strikes with his lightsaber.
Obi-Wan still has the advantage over anyone fighting Anakin in that he helped train him for 13 years, and he's one of the premier fighting Jedi of his era, although definitely not top tier. I'd say he has a good chance to manage Vader in combat.
Originally posted by Janus MariusHe has vastly improved. He spent 20 years developing his powers and connection with the force. While Kenobi was more or less equal to Vader in ROTS. ANH Vader will have leaped him as far as force power.
Force powers? Unless Vader has vastly improved, I'd say there's nothing to tell if they're still equals or not when it comes to application (not potential).
Originally posted by Darth Martin
I doubt upon meeting Kenobi will even know it's Vader unless of course he reveals himself. And even if he does, Vader has obviously changed his lightsaber combat form through and through to fit his current state. It's not like Kenobi will know him as he did on Mustafar. Vader is levels stronger, physically that is and is used to fighting multiple Jedi opponents at once. Also, it's not as if Kenobi is Maul, Ventress, or Grievous. He won't use his speed b/c of the face that he is the Soresu master. He'll play defence, and that's not a good strategy against Vader. Vader will bombard Kenobi with barrages of unbearable strikes with his lightsaber.
AHAHAHAHAHA.
HA.
No.
It's stated plain as day in FightSaber (SW Insider Issue # 62) that Vader could not break old Ben Kenobi's guard until he yielded of his own free will. That's pretty sad considering Vader held all the advantages: like you said, he changed his saber form up whereas Obi-Wan did not, Vader kept up to par with his dueling prowess as well, whereas Obi-Wan did not. So, he couldn't defeat his former master even two decades after RotS with all that "enhanced strength".
We know that Vader's swordsmanship had diminished according to George Lucas himself and the official site, which states in the RotJ Q&A section that his "lightsaber prowess had been severely hampered" due to the events on Mustafar.
Vader was also overcome by a neophyte farmboy giving into his nerd rage. Since Luke only had two months of informal training at the most, that's a huge strike against him.
Imagine Obi-Wan in his prime versus Vader. Kenobi would wreck his shit in a saber duel.
He has vastly improved. He spent 20 years developing his powers and connection with the force. While Kenobi was more or less equal to Vader in ROTS. ANH Vader will have leaped him as far as force power. [/B]
Most certainly true, though Kenobi was only equal to Vader in the Force due to extreme emotional distress on Anakin's part; otherwise, I'd be inclined to say RotS Vader > Kenobi.
As for the actual thread, it's hard to say since Kenobi is a way more skilled duelist, yet Vader has shown to be more powerful and proficient with the Force. If I had to place a bet on one, I'd probably pick Kenobi since most duels end up being saber fights anyways. Still, Vader has a nice chance to win.
Kenobi's defense and counters against Grievous were insane. In less than two minutes, he had the vicious fighter maimed and ripe for the picking. Rewatching the fight just recently, I was pretty surprised by Obi-Wan's impressive evasion maneuvers and counters. He was literally a blur against Grievous, and moreso against Anakin/Vader. I don't see ANH Vader outpacing or breaking through Kenobi's defenses. Even with an older and far less mobile Ben he was unable to do so.
Advent nailed a lot of content above, so I'll avoid repeating her, but kudos.
Not when one force user is far more powerful than the other.
I'm sorry, is there a predecent for Vader force-pwning someone of RotS Kenobi's skill? Anywhere?
Originally posted by Advent*points and nods like a mute retard* Ung! Uh!
AHAHAHAHAHA.HA.
No.
It's stated plain as day in FightSaber (SW Insider Issue # 62) that Vader could not break old Ben Kenobi's guard until he yielded of his own free will. That's pretty sad considering Vader held all the advantages: like you said, he changed his saber form up whereas Obi-Wan did not, Vader kept up to par with his dueling prowess as well, whereas Obi-Wan did not. So, he couldn't defeat his former master even two decades after RotS with all that "enhanced strength".
We know that Vader's swordsmanship had diminished according to George Lucas himself and the official site, which states in the RotJ Q&A section that his "lightsaber prowess had been severely hampered" due to the events on Mustafar.
Vader was also overcome by a neophyte farmboy giving into his nerd rage. Since Luke only had two months of informal training at the most, that's a huge strike against him.
Imagine Obi-Wan in his prime versus Vader. Kenobi would wreck his shit in a saber duel.
Most certainly true, though Kenobi was only equal to Vader in the Force due to extreme emotional distress on Anakin's part; otherwise, I'd be inclined to say RotS Vader > Kenobi.
As for the actual thread, it's hard to say since Kenobi is a way more skilled duelist, yet Vader has shown to be more powerful and proficient with the Force.
Originally posted by AdventThe movies' exception and reverse being Palpatine vs. Yoda.
If I had to place a bet on one, I'd probably pick Kenobi since most duels end up being saber fights anyways.
Kota.
Could you elaborate? My net is acting up and I can't get Wookieepedia to load to refresh on the topic.
Even if he didn't, does that mean he couldn't?
Burden of proof. You have to demonstrate Force prowess above and beyond what RotS Obi-Wan has demonstrated if your entire stance is that ANH Vader >>> Obi-Wan in the Force enough to win the bout. Advent put up a very strong argument for Obi-Wan's saber skills being adequate enough to deal with Vader, and I for one agree.
We do know that Vader is an upper tier force user.
Upper tier for what era? Post-PT? After the eclipse of the Golden Age of the Jedi? A maimed shell of his own former untapped potential?
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Could you elaborate? My net is acting up and I can't get Wookieepedia to load to refresh on the topic.
I suspect Sidious was alluding to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uM3JmpHUSu0 2:30-2:40
Originally posted by Janus MariusThanks Fan Skywalker. 🙂
Could you elaborate? My net is acting up and I can't get Wookieepedia to load to refresh on the topic.
Burden of proof. You have to demonstrate Force prowess above and beyond what RotS Obi-Wan has demonstrated if your entire stance is that ANH Vader >>> Obi-Wan in the Force enough to win the bout.Don't forget how easy Dooku swept him aside, and Dooku is not as powerful as Vader.
Advent put up a very strong argument for Obi-Wan's saber skills being adequate enough to deal with Vader, and I for one agree.Not a good arguement for an all out setting.
Upper tier for what era? Post-PT? After the eclipse of the Golden Age of the Jedi? A maimed shell of his own former untapped potential?
Vader<<< full potential Anakin
Every force user<<< full potential Anakin
How exactly does -Vader not reaching his full potential- make him weak?
I suspect Sidious was alluding to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uM3JmpHUSu0 2:30-2:40
Well, me having net problems isn't helping when I'm given a YouTube video URL. I had to stop automatic loading of images just so the throttled net could muster up KMC. But I do appreciate something to reference tomorrow when the threshold is lifted.
Don't forget how easy Dooku swept him aside, and Dooku is not as powerful as Vader.
What are you basing this on, exactly? Vader is clearly weaker than his full potential by GL's own admission. Dooku is noted as being perhaps the best practitioner of TK in the Jedi Order (His teachings on TK are mandatory) and is noted by Yoda as being the greatest student in the Force among the Jedi Order (excepting obviously himself, since Yoda's mastery of the Force is the best in the movies).
Since when using the Force, precision and mastery are just as important if not moreso than raw potential, I don't see your point. Obi-Wan stalemated Anakin's Force push at point blank range while both were fighting. Previously, Anakin's greatest Force feat is yelling in uncontrolled rage and the resulting shockwaves destroyed a roof. Yoda has less potential than Skywalker according to Qui-Gon Jinn, but if you argued that Vader OR Anakin would pwn Yoda using the Force, you'd be seriously arguing a hopeless cause.
I mean, potential isn't everything. If I have a Dodge Viper and I haven't learned to use a manual without stalling, am I going to beat a racer who's in a Geo Metro automatic? Probably not.
Not a good arguement for an all out setting.
Considering all your arguments thus far are one-liners with blanket statements and absolutes which you don't back up with some kind of debating talent, I have to question your idea of a "good argument".
Saber battle IS the dominant method of fighting other Force users, unless the difference in power is so vast that one can dominate the other. Dooku dominated Ventress easily because of his ability with the Force, for example. You wouldn't see Anakin Skywalker dominating her with the Force, even though he has more potential than either of them. The idea of "OMG Furce god!!!111" winning the battle without drawing his blade is unfounded.
Vader<<< full potential AnakinEvery force user<<< full potential Anakin
How exactly does -Vader not reaching his full potential- make him weak?
You're not substantiating anything more than Vader's relative strength to his own lost potential here. Yes, Anakin is the king of potential in the PT. Yes, Vader is weaker. But losing potential is not the same as say, gaining mastery over what you've already tapped. RotS Anakin had far more potential than anyone who had ever beaten him. But he hadn't tapped into his potential and mastered his own powers. ANH Vader may or may not have mastered his limited potential in a manner which would be considerable enough to threaten Obi-Wan Kenobi, but the onus is on you to prove that using source material.
You haven't done that. Please post again when you can.
Originally posted by Janus MariusThe video shows how Vader easily chokes and throws kota to the side with the force.
[B]Well, me having net problems isn't helping when I'm given a YouTube video URL. I had to stop automatic loading of images just so the throttled net could muster up KMC. But I do appreciate something to reference tomorrow when the threshold is lifted.
What are you basing this on, exactly? Vader is clearly weaker than his full potential by GL's own admission.Ok??? I believe just about any SW fan knows that.
Dooku is noted as being perhaps the best practitioner of TK in the Jedi OrderOne of. And source please?
We know how good Vader is with TK by his feats.
(His teachings on TK are mandatory) and is noted by Yoda as being the greatest student in the Force among the Jedi Order
(excepting obviously himself, since Yoda's mastery of the Force is the best in the movies).Right after Sidious, yeah.
Since when using the Force, precision and mastery are just as important if not moreso than raw potential,Vader's mastery>>> Anakin's
I don't see your point.Very simple. Vader is far more powerful than Obi Wan in the force.
Obi-Wan stalemated Anakin's Force push at point blank range while both were fighting.Since he stalemated Anakin (with very little mastery over the dark side) in the force that means he can do the same with Vader (with far greater mastery over the dark side)?
Previously, Anakin's greatest Force feat is yelling in uncontrolled rage and the resulting shockwaves destroyed a roof.Wow! And Vader, with more control and mastery, tore down a huge hut that was as durable as durasteel.
Yoda has less potential than Skywalker according to Qui-Gon Jinn, but if you argued that Vader OR Anakin would pwn Yoda using the Force, you'd be seriously arguing a hopeless cause.What the hell are you talking about? lol
I mean, potential isn't everything.That is kinda my point with Vader. Though he didn't reach his full potential, he still became far more powerful than his ROTS incarnation.
If I have a Dodge Viper and I haven't learned to use a manual without stalling, am I going to beat a racer who's in a Geo Metro automatic? Probably not.Ok?
Considering all your arguments thus far are one-liners with blanket statements and absolutes which you don't back up with some kind of debating talent, I have to question your idea of a "good argument".Sorry for not throwing in a bunch of irrelevent statements.
Saber battle IS the dominant method of fighting other Force users, unless the difference in power is so vast that one can dominate the other.The difference is vast. We are talking about the guy who gave Starkiller a good fight. The same Starkiller who gripped a stardestroyer and redirected it.
Do you read up much on EU Vader?
Dooku dominated Ventress easily because of his ability with the Force, for example. You wouldn't see Anakin Skywalker dominating her with the Force, even though he has more potential than either of them.There is a difference in Anakin and Vader.
The idea of "OMG Furce god!!!111" winning the battle without drawing his blade is unfounded.Even if they do begin a saber battle, what makes you think he can't easily take Kenobi out with the force, like Dooku did?
You're not substantiating anything more than Vader's relative strength to his own lost potential here. Yes, Anakin is the king of potential in the PT. Yes, Vader is weaker. But losing potential is not the same as say, gaining mastery over what you've already tapped.Exactly, Vader has far more Mastery than he as Anakin.
RotS Anakin had far more potential than anyone who had ever beaten him. But he hadn't tapped into his potential and mastered his own powers. ANH Vader may or may not have mastered his limited potential in a manner which would be considerable enough to threaten Obi-Wan Kenobi, but the onus is on you to prove that using source material.Vader has shown far greater strength and mastery over the force than Kenobi ever has. Vader's displays of TK are even greater than Dooku's, who easily swept Kenobi aside.
From Death Star.
"[...]With that, Obi-Wan stepped in and cut. Vader blocked the attack easily. Obi-Wan attacked again, and again, Vader blocked each strike.
If the old man thought he could rattle him by attacking instead of defending, he was mistaken. Vader riposted, sped up his timing, and took the initiative, forcing the erstwhile Jedi to defend.
He still had some skill, his old Master did, but he was out of practice. Vader could feel it in the Force.
Obi-Wan twirled and blocked a slash, then wove a defensive pattern with his blade. The Force was still with the old Jedi; he was able to anticipate Vader's strikes and block or parry them. But after a quick exchange, Vader felt the energy shift in his favor. "Your powers are weak, old man."
[...]
Vader shoved, hard, and they broke the clash. Obi-Wan retreated a step.
Vader felt the fierce anticipation of victory pound in his heart. "You should not have come back," he told the Jedi.
Another exchange -- four, five, six attacks and blocks -- and Vader knew the old man was weakening. The Force might be strong in Obi-Wan, but the dark side was stronger in Vader. It let him anticipate his adversary's strikes and counter them almost before they began.
Obi-Wan knew it, too. He began to retreat, backing away, his lightsaber itself seeming weaker as he moved.
[...]
But just as he was ready to deliver the final strike, Obi-Wan managed a fast series of attacks, and Vader had to move quickly to avoid the strikes. Even as old and weak as Obi-Wan was, his technique was accomplished enough that a foolish move on Vader's part could still be fatal."
I'm not certain if it was being argued that Kenobi's swordsmanship at this point is superior to Vader's, but the passage from Death Star and all available evidence doesn't conclude as much. The fact that Vader may not have been able to penetrate Obi-Wan Kenobi's defense is not a sign that he is the inferior duelist. This passage indicates quite clearly that while Kenobi held his own quite well, the fight was inexorably heading in Vader's favor.
Sixty-six is right, however. Vader has demonstrated vastly superior feats in the Force -- far greater than when he was whole, and certainly greater than anything Obi-Wan Kenobi has done. Force-wise, it's not close; Kenobi isn't in Vader's league.