Re: The following must protect the Jedi Temple!
Originally posted by Darth Martin
Order 66 has just been initiated. Yoda and Kenobi aren't present, and Windu has just been killed. That excludes the three most powerful Jedi from protecting there home. Darth Vader has just been ordered to lead the 501st Legion into the Temple to exterminate all of the remaining Jedi. For those that haven’t seen “Revenge of the Sith”, this is Darth Vader before the suit and his duel with Kenobi on Mustafar. The following individuals must protect the temple from being fully overrun. The remaining Jedi in the Temple will aid them but they are unaware of any such attack until it happens. The group is not allowed to tell them it is about to happen. THEY(not the Jedi) get 20 minutes prep, however they are not allowed to leave the grounds of the Temple.………………………………………………………………….
-Each member of the team gets there best equipment that they showed in each of there respectable films. Example: RoboCop gets his gun arm, Cobra Assault Cannon, and jetpack. Terminators get plasma rifles and future SkyNet weapons. Data gets his tricorder, phaser-rifle, and hand-phaser.
-The Yautja are not restricted by an honor code in this fight. They are free to fight by any means they deem necessary.
-Characters are allowed to pick up spare weapons laying around whether they be lightsabers or 501st tech.
-The Empire isn’t allowed to send reinforcements to the Temple. Only the ones at the sight initially with Vader are allowed to fight.
-Adamantium and Yautja edged weaponry can withstand lightsabers.
………………………………………………………………….John Preston (Equilibrium)
Wolf (AVP R)
Jungle Hunter (Predator)
Urban Hunter (Predator 2)
RoboCop
T-850
T-X
T-1000
Blade
Data
Colossus
Spider-Man
Wolverine
Lady Deathstrike
Jason X
Green Goblin (Norman)
ED-209 (RoboCop)…………………………………………………………………..
Can the combined might of the Jedi and the Team hold the fort?
Anakin will have his hands full slaying Jedi, while the Predators, Wolvie, Jason and Preston kill troopers by the dozen. Spider man and Gobby hang back talking about MJ's bewbz. Lady D does her nails, Robocop and the terminators all brag about who has the biggest lug nuts....Colossus makes a pass at Lady D, whips out his little weinie, she laughs and makes cheeseburgers for the team. In the end, TX and Lady D please the crowd with a good old fashioned round of 69.
The entire team splooges in their undies, TX and Lady D rule the galaxy together as lesbian lovers.
Just saying.
Originally posted by NemeBro
[B]So...This is all based on comic feats?
none of it is based on comic feats. i was basing it off feats from X2.
and youre avoiding the question. i said that otuside of the debate meaning unofficially and off the record, why do you think he needs air to survive in the movies when in the comcis he doesnt? burden of proof doesnt apply here because this doesnt have anything to do with the actual debate.
The obvious question, if he doesn't need oxygen to survive, why do we see him breathing in the films?
In Origins when he's in the water tank during the adamantium bonding process, he has a breathing aparatus.
He's even seen physically winded in Origins, after he escapes Stryker's lab and runs all the way naked to the farm, he's out of breath and breathing in very heavily, which implies his mucles and organs are low on O2 due to the massive exertion he just put his body through.
Originally posted by Robtard
The obvious question, if he doesn't need oxygen to survive, why do we see him breathing in the films?
the same reason he tries to dodge bullets even though he can heal from them? his body STILL takes damage from everything regular humans are damaged from. he just heals back. but that doesnt mean he doesnt feel the pain that comes with it.
In Origins when he's in the water tank during the adamantium bonding process, he has a breathing aparatus.
they didnt know to what extent his healing factor worked. its not like they spent time trying to find ways to kill him before hand.
He's even seen physically winded in Origins, after he escapes Stryker's lab and runs all the way naked to the farm, he's out of breath and breathing in very heavily, which implies his mucles and organs are low on O2 due to the massive exertion he just put his body through. [/B]
like i said he takes just as much damage as normal people do. he just heals from it. i never said he doesnt breathe i just said not breathing isnt going to kill him. thats like saying that because when he gets shot he bleeds he can die from being shot.
so my question still stands. if he is seen surviving in areas without oxegyn in the comics what happens in the movies that makes people think hes different?
Originally posted by WO PolaskiBecause it has not been proven that he can survive without air.
none of it is based on comic feats. i was basing it off feats from X2.and youre avoiding the question. i said that otuside of the debate meaning unofficially and off the record, why do you think he needs air to survive in the movies when in the comcis he doesnt? burden of proof doesnt apply here because this doesnt have anything to do with the actual debate.
Comics and movies are different mediums and the abilities of the characters in comics do not always translate into the movies. As Juggernaut will gladly tell you.
Fact of the matter is, do I consider it a possibility that he can survive without air in the movies? Sure.
Am I going to apply that in an argument that is based on facts? Lol no.
It's speculation no matter how much you try to reason it, the movie versions are more often than not missing many traits of the comic characters, at least in terms of power, and their abilities are also usually lesser in scale.
It is an assumption that he can survive without air, just as it is an assumption he can survive the destruction of a major organ. Wolverine in the movies has only healed from wounds on the flesh, never anything such as a lung, his heart, or brain.
I will NOT assume that he can do any of the above when such things were never displayed in the movies, which we are discussing.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Because it has not been proven that he can survive without air.Comics and movies are different mediums and the abilities of the characters in comics do not always translate into the movies. As Juggernaut will gladly tell you.
Fact of the matter is, do I consider it a possibility that he can survive without air in the movies? Sure.
Am I going to apply that in an argument that is based on facts? Lol no.
It's speculation no matter how much you try to reason it, the movie versions are more often than not missing many traits of the comic characters, at least in terms of power, and their abilities are also usually lesser in scale.
It is an assumption that he can survive without air, just as it is an assumption he can survive the destruction of a major organ. Wolverine in the movies has only healed from wounds on the flesh, never anything such as a lung, his heart, or brain.
I will NOT assume that he can do any of the above when such things were never displayed in the movies, which we are discussing.
youve yet to explain the logic behind your reasoning. as you yourself have said youre just making an assumption. my question to you is why do you assume that he needs air to survive in the movie even though he doesnt in the comics? what specifically leads you to think that? or are you simply being devils advocate?
Originally posted by WO Polaski
the same reason he tries to dodge bullets even though he can heal from them? his body STILL takes damage from everything regular humans are damaged from. he just heals back. but that doesnt mean he doesnt feel the pain that comes with it.they didnt know to what extent his healing factor worked. its not like they spent time trying to find ways to kill him before hand.
like i said he takes just as much damage as normal people do. he just heals from it. i never said he doesnt breathe i just said not breathing isnt going to kill him. thats like saying that because when he gets shot he bleeds he can die from being shot.
so my question still stands. if he is seen surviving in areas without oxegyn in the comics what happens in the movies that makes people think hes different?
Actually, there are instances in both the comics and movies where he willfully takes bullets and or damage, relying on his HF to pull him through.
Or they did know, because Stryker refused to do it to Sabretooth, on the grounds he couldn't survive.
It stands to reason his healing factor still relies on basic body functions, oxygen and sustenance. He's needed to eat in the comics, one time he was stuck under a glacier, he survived by cutting off pieces of skin to feed himself.
Because he's a living being and he breathes and he's seen winded, that's why it stands to reason he needs to breathe. Can you show where he's survived with a complete lack of oxygen? He held his breath for an extended period of time when he faced Tiger Shark in the late 80's, but that isn't the same as going without oxygen indefinitely.
Originally posted by WO PolaskiMaking an assumption? Sorry hun, but I'm afraid that you are the one making the assumption. You are making the assumption that movie Wolverine can do something he cannot do. My logic is based on in the movies, he has not shown this abilities. Comics do not count as far as movie characters are concerned. Playing Devil's Advocate? Afraid not, my argument is the more logical. Facts are, Wolverine has not shown he can survive without air in the movies, why should we assume he can? Hulk in the comics can support a 15,000,000,000 ton or so mountain on his back, should I assume that he can do it in the 2008 movie? I am basing my argument on facts, you are speculating that he has a trait in the movie that he only has shown to possess in the comics.
youve yet to explain the logic behind your reasoning. as you yourself have said youre just making an assumption. my question to you is why do you assume that he needs air to survive in the movie even though he doesnt in the comics? what specifically leads you to think that? or are you simply being devils advocate?
Assumption: Wolverine can survive without air in the movies because he could in the comics.
Fact: Wolverine has never shown to survive without air in the movies.
Comics are irrelevant.
Originally posted by Robtard
Actually, there are instances in both the comics and movies where he willfully takes bullets and or damage, relying on his HF to pull him through.
i knew you were going to break this up cause i would have if i was on your side of the table. 😂 😛
but him occasionally jumping in front of the gun in order to gain an edge is different from willfully going against one of the strongest impulses in your entire body and half-suffocating 24/7.
Or they did know, because Stryker refused to do it to Sabretooth, on the grounds he couldn't survive.
stryker did NOT know that logans healing factor was strong enough to get him through it. he DID know that his hf is superior to creeds. hence why when wolverine stopped breathing everyone was like "****". it was an experiment.
It stands to reason his healing factor still relies on basic body functions, oxygen and sustenance.
why do you think he'd need those but not blood?
He's needed to eat in the comics, one time he was stuck under a glacier, he survived by cutting off pieces of skin to feed himself.
*shrug* who knows maybe theres something specific about the energy he gains from food. i dont know. but i do know that while that scan talks about food he has been shown in space and with every cell on his body ripped off, and hes been seen without blood period without substantial amounts of time. without any blood at all there is no oxygen so no organs could survive anyway. hes also survived having bullets lodged into his brain and has had his heart removed... meaning he can live without functioning major organs. so if they die why would he care?
Because he's a living being and he breathes.
human beings also need blood and their vital organs intact to survive but apparently he doesnt.
Movies also isn't the comics. Can you show where he's survived with a complete lack of oxygen? He held his breath for an extended period of time when he faced Tiger Shark in the late 80's, that that isn't the same as going without oxygen indefinitely.
hes been dead on two occasions within the movies to my knowledge. if hes dead that means hes not breathing... but he lives anyway.
Originally posted by NemeBro
[B]Making an assumption? Sorry hun, but I'm afraid that you are the one making the assumption.
do I consider it a possibility that he can survive without air in the movies? Sure.
considering a possibility is making an assumption...
Playing Devil's Advocate? Afraid not, my argument is the more logical. Facts are, Wolverine has not shown he can survive without air in the movies, why should we assume he can?
he hasnt been shown to die of suffocation either so why do you assume he can? whats your reasoning for thinking so?
Hulk in the comics can support a 15,000,000,000 ton or so mountain on his back, should I assume that he can do it in the 2008 movie?
the hulk has been shown in the movie to not be able to do that so assuming he could wouldnt make much sense.
I am basing my argument on facts, you are speculating that he has a trait in the movie that he only has shown to possess in the comics.
Assumption: Wolverine can survive without air in the movies because he could in the comics.Fact: Wolverine has never shown to survive without air in the movies.
he hasnt been shown to be able to die of suffocation either so theres my fact. one fact such as that, that absence of proof is proof of absence, doesnt work by itself unless youre playing the role of a devils advocate.
People have died (cardiac arrest) and come back, because your blood carries oxygen and holds it for a period of time.That is far different than him being in an environment completely lacking breathable oxygen (eg underwater, space) and surviving.
There is really nothing in the movies that shows he could go indefinitely without it, quite the opposite actually. Stands to reason his HF needs this to function, food too, as he eats and drinks.
When in the comics has he survived a complete lack of oxygen? I'm curious to this one, as I can't recall it ever happening.
Edit: I do recall him being near death due to losing a large portion of his blood and being saved by some Deadpool-looking human agent, he was chained to a wall in a lab, being experimented on and that DP-looking guy saved him by giving him blood and adrenaline, to kickstart his HF to full speed. This was in the late 80's, early 90's. It's vague, but I do recall those comic cells.
Originally posted by Robtard
People have died and come back, because your blood carries oxygen and holds it for a period of time.That is far different than him being in an environment completely lacking breathable oxygen (eg underwater, space) and surviving.
how long does it do this though? and if its not circulating why would that matter? the oxegyns just sitting there wasting away isnt it? i dont know anything about anatomy really so i dont actually know.
There is really nothing in the movies that shows he could go indefinitely without it, quite the opposite actually.
id agree that if vader force choked him for all of eternity he could stay dead.
When in the comics has he survived a complete lack of oxygen? I'm curious to this one, as I can't recall it ever happening. [/B]
aside from being in space and having every cell on his body incinerated? do you mean indefinitely?
Originally posted by WO Polaski1. "something taken for granted: something that is believed to be true without proof"
considering a possibility is making an assumption...he hasnt been shown to die of suffocation either so why do you assume he can? whats your reasoning for thinking so?
the hulk has been shown in the movie to not be able to do that so assuming he could wouldnt make much sense.
he hasnt been shown to be able to die of suffocation either so theres my fact. one fact such as that, that absence of proof is proof of absence, doesnt work by itself youre playing the role of a devils advocate.
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861587326/assumption.html
I acknowledge that it is possible. The same way I acknowledge that Lord Xenu trapped Thetons into my body(or whatever Scientologists believe) is possible. Doesn't mean I believe it to be true. Acknowledging a possibility is not making an assumption.
2. Bad logic.
Using that logic, can I assume that Cyclops can take a bullet to the face because he has never been proven not able to take one?
The answer is no.
Please see the Burden of Proof fallacy for more details.
3. Okay, let me bring up another example.
Comic Juggernaut has a force field he can summon at will. Should I assume movie Juggernaut can?
4. See Burden of Proof fallacy.
You assert he can survive without oxygen.
I assert he cannot.
You are making the positive claim, burden of proof is on you, I do not have to prove a negative.
I have never shown that I can die from a Hydrogen Bomb going off in my face.
Guess I can survive that huh?
Originally posted by WO Polaski
how long does it do this though? and if its not circulating why would that matter? the oxegyns just sitting there wasting away isnt it? i dont know anything about anatomy really so i dont actually know.id agree that if vader force choked him for all of eternity he could stay dead.
aside from being in space and having every cell on his body incinerated? do you mean indefinitely?
Either you've changed your argument or I'm missing something. Are you saying he'd die if you keep him underwater but his HF would/could kick back in if was taken out before every cell rotted? Because that could be a possibility, but from a movie standpoint, it's speculation.
I don't recall him being in space, I assume he died and then reanimated once he was taken out of it? Did he also have help in some fashion to kickstart his HF?
I don't think he was completely disintegrated, his bones and probably brain survived due to the adamantium protecting them, iirc. I think those remaining cells reconstructed him, and there was oxygen around him where his cells could have taken in and used.
Originally posted by NemeBro
1. "something taken for granted: something that is believed to be true without proof"http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861587326/assumption.html
you dont have any proof. you have a fact that he hasnt done something. thats not proof that he cant do something. if you tried to use that as proof in a court of law theyd laugh at you.
2. Bad logic.Using that logic, can I assume that Cyclops can take a bullet to the face because he has never been proven not able to take one?
The answer is no.
Please see the Burden of Proof fallacy for more details.
3. Okay, let me bring up another example.
Comic Juggernaut has a force field he can summon at will. Should I assume movie Juggernaut can?
4. See Burden of Proof fallacy.
You assert he can survive without oxygen.
I assert he cannot.
You are making the positive claim, burden of proof is on you, I do not have to prove a negative.
I have never shown that I can die from a Hydrogen Bomb going off in my face.
Guess I can survive that huh? [/B]
the fact that you keep bringing up debating mannerisms and not answering my question leads me to believe that you care more about winning the debate for the sake of winning a debate then you actually believe that he cant survive without oxegyn... which would mean that youre playing devils advocate. so, i concede the debate; youve won. now burden of proof and logical fallacies and all things of that nature no longer apply here.
so with that being said and done; explain to me your reasoning for thinking wolverine can not survive without oxygen even though in the comics he can. if you say "because he was never shown to do so in the movies" then you also think that he cant whistle nor do jumping jacks because he was never shown to be able to do so in the movies.
Originally posted by WO Polaski1. I guess it's a good thing this is not a court of law huh? So basically your notion is that absence of proof is not proof of absence, right? And on the subject of law, if you were to assert that someone did something on the basis that you cannot prove he didn't...Innocent until proven guilty hun.
you dont have any proof. you have a fact that he hasnt done something. thats not proof that he cant do something. if you tried to use that as proof in a court of law theyd laugh at you.the fact that you keep bringing up debating mannerisms and not answering my question leads me to believe that you care more about winning the debate for the sake of winning a debate then you actually believe that he cant survive without oxegyn... which would mean that youre playing devils advocate. so, i concede the debate; youve won. now burden of proof and logical fallacies and all things of that nature no longer apply here.
so with that being said and done; explain to me your reasoning for thinking wolverine can not survive without oxygen even though in the comics he can. if you say "because he was never shown to do so in the movies" then you also think that he cant whistle nor do jumping jacks because he was never shown to be able to do so in the movies.
2. Logical fallacies still apply, even when not in a debate. When I look at something, I consider the possibilities and whichever one I find more logical is what I believe.
In the comics he has shown to, yes.
In the movies, it was never so much as implied he could.
Whistling and jumping jacks are things every human with the proper physical capabilities can potentially do. That is the difference.
Being able to live without air is not. Nor is it even one of Wolverine's well-known attributes.
I consider it a possibility, not a fact, and I will not treat it as such.
Are my views really that hard to understand? I am not saying it is definately untrue, only that logically, we should not assume he is.