MIDDLE EARTH vs AMERICA

Originally posted by Skybreaker
We can do lots of shit to mountains. Quantify Morgoth's mountain busting abilities and why he still needs to sacrifice his own power to build armies of orcs. Vaguely appealing to "mountain busting" isn't really doing your side any favors; you've established that your most powerful player is comparable to a B-52. Yawn.

Good for us, too bad we don't bust them up with our own attacks (higher up nukes could theoretically do this, but eh)

He moves them around, if he can generate that energy, he can attack with said level of energy. Don't need a calc to know that exceeds the energy of any nuke we have

Also:

"intended portrayal and something irrelevant to energy generation means his mountain raising feats mean nothing"

That makes feats null, except that it doesn't

I guess by that logic Frieza isn't a planet buster because he has several servants and armies who are massively below his power level, even when he's first form

Also

>guys who shift continents and such fun shit
>equal to a B-52 at best

:galactic ryoma

So I have to expect it to be like DBZ for Morgoth's power-set to match his actual performance and actual decisions in the actual narrative? If Morgoth just for some reason didn't want to or couldn't actually apply the feats you attribute to him in combat, and instead must rely on orc hordes, doesn't that kind of make your point null? We're comparing real-time combative ability, not theoretical power-sets.

You know, the "can't so it in combat" excuse kind of died out in 2008. Or should have at least anyhow, apparently not

Also, yeah, expecting Morgoth and LOTR high tiers to be portrayed like DBZ characters for their feats to be valid, which isn't a valid argument, at all

Though should mention his fight with Fingolfin causing craters deep enough for lava to pour out of them, and them parrying eachother's blows

Yeah, because obviously armies of swords and spears would stand a chance against the United States military. 🙄

Totally what I sai... oh wait no I didn't

Absolutely, and notice how you fail to actually quantify or substantiate your rebuttal beyond vaguely appealing to adjectives and descriptors like "high elf lord".

Aforementioned Galadriel feat and how Elf Lords are at least on par with her, etc

😆 Do you really think that would intimidate the US navy? What kind of fleet actually relies on ramming as a viable combat tactic? One that would be blown out of the water 500 kilometers before it ever reached line of sight of the nearest patrol boat.

Should also mention that said napalm bombs were basically mini nukes or some shit (Lost Roads I believe, can't find the quote, too lazy)

HOLY SHIT THEY HAVE STEEL BOWS WHY DIDN'T SOMEBODY TELL ME BEFORE I DUG MYSELF INTO A HOLE LIKE THIS!?

No way!

...seriously?

Never said they'd beat a modern military, good job with the strawmanning, though

Yeah, you reference him as a "high elven lord" and apparently that refutes my describing him as "pre-gunpowder", because obviously a fleet of B-52s can't replicate the feats of a "high elven lord".

Call me when they can output kilotons

Quantify it if you can. Please quantify Sauron's seismic quakes, explain their combat utility and their apparent absence in various crucial narrative points, and explain how the hell you expect them to defeat a modern military-industrial complex with some earthquakes.

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=18555

Cue "flawed calc!" "poetic language!" "can't do it in combat!"

And he does this...where? And this would give them the win over the US military...how?

The fact that he was causing earthquakes across thousands of kilometers means he could easily if he wanted to

It's just stylistic choice

...like, is this even worth a reply?

If he can generate such levels of energy, he can use it. Meaning, if he can put such levels of energy into things like storms, he can put it into attacks

So you dismiss any pretense of actually creating a consistent, logical model of your side's capabilities, and instead openly admit to cherry picking the most liberal interpretations of specific passages of prose that even the most numb-skulled high school freshman would notice is ridiculously flowery language, ignore all contradicting evidence, and [b]even then,, fail to produce anything beyond "he can create earthquakes -> ???? -> profit!!! victory!!!!"?

Yeah, welcome to modern day debating where higher end showing are considered to be definitive of a character's powerset and a verse's standing

Unless you're fine with saying DBZ is only small mountain busting because a vast majority of their attacks are at that level. Or Roof level Galaxian Explosion from Saint Seiya. Or a vast majority of anime/manga/video game characters having a few high feats being considered their "standard" power level

Low ends will always outweigh high ends in any medium

Saying something is hyperbole and flowery language doesn't make it so and is just a copout

And you base this off of...what, exactly? Since when do we se Gandalf, more powerful than Galadriel, tank nuclear warheads? Last I recall he was running terrified up a tree against a pack of wargs. Since when do we see even Smaug replicating any feat that would suggest that range of durability?

I believe the Istari were forbidden to use magic directly as to have a repeat of War of Wrath or whatever. That and Gandalf was trying to keep his friends alive

It says she cast down its walls, and even if we once again go by your policy of ignoring all literary considerations and taking everything hyper-literally, that's absolutely nothing that an 18th century division couldn't do. An artillery barrage >>>>> Galadriel, but apparently this feat proves she's nuke-proof, or something.

And laid bare it's pits or some other such shit, destroying it outright, IIRC

That power should be at least in the kiloton range, to destroy it with an attack

Well aside from your throwing around energy values without any sort of justification, it obviously means quite a bit to them, given that Morgoth, your most powerful contender, found it strategic to sacrifice his own power to build orcs.

So the whole "hurr durr intended portrayal and low ends means higher up feats don't count!" tripe then?

Mmmkay

Reminds me of the whole "Marvel low meta feats don't count because they dodge bullets wielded by mooks, Iron Fist can't be Mach 30 because he doesn't blitz armies, but dodges their fire" on Spergbattles

...you seriously think this would impress a modern military with modern armor support and weaponry? Like, are you even remotely aware of the capabilities of a modern combat unit? Even the COD-lite version?

We still summarize with your taking the most generous interpretations of smiles and metaphors, and then still refusing to actually demonstrate their impacts - what Sauron being able to produce earthquakes is supposed to scare us with, why a modern military force would be intimidated by somebody tearing down a fortress, etc. You haven't come up with a single manner in which the ME forces counter America's overwhelming airpower, naval power, or "cruise missile from 200 kilometers away" power. It holds enormous tactical, strategic and logistical advantages that you're just handwaving for no good reason. [/B]

Yeah, you know, raw power and stats advantages tend to be extremely beneficial

Skill? Numbers? Planning? All that jazz? Meaningless when you outclass your opponents in stats. That's all it'll ever come down to when you can nuke the battlefield. Especially when your opponent has other such beneficial hax like mind**** and whatnot

Kind of why the HST loses to country busting characters (or used to Pre-Nardo upgrade era), or why something like the Galactic Empire would lose to Thor or Silver Surfer

Sauron or Osse could just Tsumani any fleet

Also

>downplaying LOTR
>saying they can lose to modern earth
>in one post

Man, this is like 2006 all over again

Skill? Numbers? Planning? All that jazz? Meaningless when you outclass your opponents in stats. That's all it'll ever come down to when you can nuke the battlefield. Especially when your opponent has other such beneficial hax like mind**** and whatnot

Kind of why the HST loses to country busting characters (or used to Pre-Nardo upgrade era), or why something like the Galactic Empire would lose to Thor or Silver Surfer

Forgot to mention the whole "any DBZ character of note>Narutoverse" example, but eh

Part 1.

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Good for us, too bad we don't bust them up with our own attacks (higher up nukes could theoretically do this, but eh)

We do. Nuclear weapons have been designed to bust bunkers located deep inside mountains. A 10 megaton ground detonation's fireball should be around 2.8 kilometers in diameter.

BTW, I would question your claim that "higher up nukes could "theoretically" do this", because I have a weird feeling that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

He moves them around, if he can generate that energy, he can attack with said level of energy.

So because I expend many kilojoules upon walking up a respectable flight of stairs, I can shoot high caliber armor piercing bullets out of my anus now?

Please stop bluffing.

Don't need a calc to know that exceeds the energy of any nuke we have

Yeah you kind of do.

Also:

"intended portrayal and something irrelevant to energy generation means his mountain raising feats mean nothing"

That makes feats null, except that it doesn't

"that makes feats null, except that it doesn't" - yeah, you aren't even making any sense at this point.

I guess by that logic Frieza isn't a planet buster because he has several servants and armies who are massively below his power level, even when he's first form

Idiotic logic. Firstly, we actually see Freiza's feats, literally, on screen, we don't read about it in palpably superfluous and non-quantitative language. Secondly, the particular and surprising fact that Freiza's minions are so absolutely below him in power that they could never hope to match him is emphasized and made quite clear in both the mang and the anime. Freiza sends his minions to conquer backwater planets and do his dirtywork; he has never had to fight a serious "war" with any enemy army. In the LotR case, Morgoth not only summons orcs to battle his enemies in combat, but also sacrifices his own power to create them.

You see, if the First Age power levels really were what you think they are, the actual war would have unfolded with morgoth and the valar battling one another, the Elves being worthless, and the orcs never having even been created.

Also

>guys who shift continents and such fun shit
>equal to a B-52 at best

:galactic ryoma

You're funny. You mention mountain busting and, when I point out that we can do that too, you suddenly jump to continent shifting. 🙄

You know, the "can't so it in combat" excuse kind of died out in 2008. Or should have at least anyhow, apparently not

Pathetic. You obviously tried to bluff your way through the fact that you can't actually explain through rational argument why whether or not something can be applied in combat is not a relevant consideration...in a combat scenario (and it obviously is) by trying to subtly appeal to popularity and tradition. Boo hoo, that won't fly here.

Also, yeah, expecting Morgoth and LOTR high tiers to be portrayed like DBZ characters for their feats to be valid, which isn't a valid argument, at all

Do you recognize the irony that your entire argument revolves around Morgoth and co fighting and soloing armies DBZ-style against the US military, whilst you turn around and claim that we shouldn't expect them to be portrayed that way in the actual literature? So you're trying to portray Morgoth in a manner that Tolkien, by your own admission, never did? 🙄

Though should mention his fight with Fingolfin causing craters deep enough for lava to pour out of them, and them parrying eachother's blows

Oh shit, Fingolfin can cause craters deep enough for lava to pour out of them, that's totally something that will protect him from 2000 pound ordinance! 🙄

Totally what I sai... oh wait no I didn't

Exactly what you said. You claimed that the US military isn't an out of context problem. Anyone with a sane and competent brain would realize that armies armed with swords and spears would be utterly without hope or relevance against a modern superpower, and it seems like you've come to realize this.

Aforementioned Galadriel feat and how Elf Lords are at least on par with her, etc

You obviously don't understand the word "quantify", and you obviously don't understand what actually matters next to a modern military. Read: Galadriel's feat is not impressive at all.

Should also mention that said napalm bombs were basically mini nukes or some shit (Lost Roads I believe, can't find the quote, too lazy)

"or some shit...too lazy" is supposed to mean something to me?

Even if I take you on your reallyyyy sketchy and clueless word, this really isn't anything compared to the hundreds of intercontinental ballistic missiles the US military can deploy with a level of precision, logistics and range unthought of by the numenor, or its ability to recognize the movement of any enemy formations or its napalm bombs with satellites and radar, or any other variety of out of context advantages a modern military with modern technology could bring to bear against your glorified medieval army.

Never said they'd beat a modern military, good job with the strawmanning, though

Then what the **** were you trying to say? If neither morgoth's nor sauron's armies could defeat or even stance a chance against a modern military, what the **** was your apologism for, and what the hell does this do to refute the fact that clearly inferior militaries were still relevant in both Morgoth's and Sauron's machinations?

Call me when they can output kilotons

😆 They can output megatons, which you would understand if you actually knew what "Kilotons" meant.

Cue "flawed calc!" "poetic language!" "can't do it in combat!"

That is a flawed calc which arbitrarily categorizes the intensity of the quake based on a chart that didn't actually support the conclusion, amongst various other absurd leaps that you wouldn't understand given that you obviously never took high school physics. And guess what? 600 kilotons isn't impressive at all by modern standards, like, have you honestly been living under a rock for the past 50 years?

The fact that he was causing earthquakes across thousands of kilometers means he could easily if he wanted to

It's just stylistic choice

That "stylistic choice" can't just be handwaved away. If you're going to take descriptions of his abilities at face value, you can't handwave the conditions in which his abilities can or would be applied in combat away. To do so is the epitome of a double standard, and you obviously seem hell bent on cherry picking the evidence that supports you.

If he can generate such levels of energy, he can use it. Meaning, if he can put such levels of energy into things like storms, he can put it into attacks

No he can't, oh scientifically dyslectic.

Part 2

Yeah, welcome to modern day debating where higher end showing are considered to be definitive of a character's powerset and a verse's standing

How old are you? Do you really think appealing to tradition and popularity while trying to hide the fact that you can't actually come up with a justification for any of these conventions (because you don't understand them and lack the mental aptitude) hides the fact that you really don't know what the hell you're talking about?

Unless you're fine with saying DBZ is only small mountain busting because a vast majority of their attacks are at that level.

I would be fine with any interpretation of their abilities that attempts to fit the observable evidence in the most parsimonious manner, rather than openly nitpicking feats and interpretations while not giving a damn about logic or consistency.

Or Roof level Galaxian Explosion from Saint Seiya. Or a vast majority of anime/manga/video game characters having a few high feats being considered their "standard" power level

I would expect a DBZ character to typically produce explosions with their ki blasts comparable to large modern day ordinance. I would have no qualms with someone pointing out that they could planet bust with difficulty under certain circumstances. I would not be OK with someone claiming that Z warriors would planet-bust with every single ki blast they throw because of power scaling even when they don't do this in the canon when it would have made sense to do so.

Low ends will always outweigh high ends in any medium

Saying something is hyperbole and flowery language doesn't make it so and is just a copout

No, pointing out that your interpretation of Morgoth's abilities (he'll basically solo the US military) is in contradiction to what he actually does in canon (he struggles with armies of Elves you have conceded don't really stand a chance against the US military). If he won't do it to the Elves for whatever reason, why the hell do those reasons suddenly dissipate here?

I believe the Istari were forbidden to use magic directly as to have a repeat of War of Wrath or whatever. That and Gandalf was trying to keep his friends alive

Dumb argument. He was trying to keep his friends alive, so therefore he wouldn't protect them from wargs? And he does use magic to kill several goblins earlier in the book; it just happens that his powers are far less impressive than you think they are.

BTW, just to burst your bubble, even were he not allowed to use magic, it has nothing to do with the discussion of durability, and the observation that Sauron and other supposedly impressive powers were killed or defeated by weapons far, far, far less potent in observed abilities than even a single MOAB. And we have thousands of them.

And laid bare it's pits or some other such shit, destroying it outright, IIRC

That power should be at least in the kiloton range, to destroy it with an attack

Oooohhh, kilotons! Even ignoring your failure to justify your calculation with your pre-high school understanding of physics or mathematics, why the **** do you still insist that kilotons are a game changer against a modern military? We can output megatons on their asses, and we can do so from across the ****ing planet.

So the whole "hurr durr intended portrayal and low ends means
higher up feats don't count!" tripe then?

Nope, the fact that people of higher IQ's would recognize that higher and lower end feats need to be reconciled to create a consistent model of events, just like in RL, while you openly make the most absurd interpretations and openly admit and ignore the fact that it doesn't make any sense given the plot and circumstances.

Mmmkay

Reminds me of the whole "Marvel low meta feats don't count because they dodge bullets wielded by mooks, Iron Fist can't be Mach 30 because he doesn't blitz armies, but dodges their fire" on Spergbattles

More "I'm going to ridicule your logic by appealing to popularity and try to hide the fact that I don't actually know what's wrong with it"?

Yeah, you know, raw power and stats advantages tend to be extremely beneficial

Neither of which you have established, because you actually think "I think that's kilotons IIRC" is a reasonable argument.

Skill? Numbers? Planning? All that jazz? Meaningless when you outclass your opponents in stats. That's all it'll ever come down to when you can nuke the battlefield. Especially when your opponent has other such beneficial hax like mind**** and whatnot

You are...really, really embarrassing yourself.

And the worst part is, unless if you're bluffing about your debating experience as well, you're actually pretty old. An adult, at the least.

Originally posted by Skybreaker
Part 1.

We do. Nuclear weapons have been designed to bust bunkers located deep inside mountains. A 10 megaton ground detonation's fireball should be around 2.8 kilometers in diameter.

BTW, I would question your claim that "higher up nukes could "theoretically" do this", because I have a weird feeling that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

I was referring to how a nuke could definitely bust up a mountain due to the energy of it being enough to pulverise such a volume of rock

I was unaware of instances where mountains were destroyed IRL so I said they likely could, but you know, keep playing elitist

So because I expend many kilojoules upon walking up a respectable flight of stairs, I can shoot high caliber armor piercing bullets out of my anus now?

That wasn't what I was alluding to and you know it, but by all means keep playing dumb

Yeah you kind of do.

Fascinating. Tell me, are you the kind of person who'd say that moving a planet across a solar sytem in a short time is weaker than the meteor that wipes the dinosaurs off the face of the earth because there are no calcs for planet moving?

Idiotic logic. Firstly, we actually see Freiza's feats, literally, on screen, we don't read about it in palpably superfluous and non-quantitative language. Secondly, the particular and surprising fact that Freiza's minions are so absolutely below him in power that they could never hope to match him is emphasized and made quite clear in both the mang and the anime. Freiza sends his minions to conquer backwater planets and do his dirtywork; he has never had to fight a serious "war" with any enemy army. In the LotR case, Morgoth not only summons orcs to battle his enemies in combat, but also [b]sacrifices his own power to create them.

"durr focusing on lower end shit and supposed intended portrayal and downplaying higher end shit while harping on the same bored, tired and obsolete downplayer tactics that didn't work in 2008 and copouting feats with the narrative hyperbole excuse and general goalpost shifting"

Well if you want to use this line of logic then the U.S don't have nukes because they didn't use them in every single campaign they were ever involved in, or because they use infantry in a war

This line of logic could be used for alot of characters in fiction

Also, crying narrative hyperbole doesn't make it so. Hyperbole would be something like "these guys clashed swords and unleashed the force of a meteorite on impact" or something like that, if it's describing raising an entire mountain range regardless of choice of wording, then it ****ing happened. No if's, but's or anything else's about it

But if I wanted to as you oh-so-eloquently put it "take everything hyper literally and go with the highest end interpretations" I could have said Morgoth and Fingolfin are massively hypersonic+ because Morgoth's darts were described as darts of lightning and Fingolfin kept up with him and Fingolfin was able to land hits on him

You see, if the First Age power levels really were what you think they are, the actual war would have unfolded with morgoth and the valar battling one another, the Elves being worthless, and the orcs never having even been created.

Almost on par with the "Thor doesn't make Hawkeye and Captain America obsolete when the Avengers fight someone so he can't be all that powerful" levels of downplaying on Spergbattles

But yeah, it's not a ****ing shonen. Enough will the damn downplaying. "Why does/doesn't he do what I think he should have" is not a valid argument at all and it certainly does not let you weasel your way out of feats and powerscaling

Pathetic. You obviously tried to bluff your way through the fact that you can't actually explain through rational argument why whether or not something can be applied in combat is not a relevant consideration...in a combat scenario (and it obviously is) by trying to subtly appeal to popularity and tradition. Boo hoo, that won't fly here.

Neither will shit like "no collateral damage so it's not powerful", "doesn't do it every single time so it doesn't count"

Downplaying isn't a valid tactic either. If he did it, it'd be logically capable of being done by him

Boo hoo, that won't fly here.

By who's authority? Yours?

Do you recognize the irony that your entire argument revolves around Morgoth and co fighting and soloing armies DBZ-style against the US military, whilst you turn around and claim that we shouldn't expect them to be portrayed that way in the actual literature? So you're trying to portray Morgoth in a manner that Tolkien, by your own admission, never did? 🙄

Might want to try something along the lines of "ignoring intended portrayal and authors intent and going with actual feats and shit" instead. Just saying

Also, PIS has no bearing in debates, neither does CIS

Oh shit, Fingolfin can cause craters deep enough for lava to pour out of them, that's totally something that will protect him from 2000 pound ordinance! 🙄

It's almost like you don't realise that creating craters 50 km deep (at least, to get deep enough to have lava pour out) would be displacing a shitload of matter, also requiring an absurd amount of energy to do so.

And due to being such a strength feat, would require an absurd amount of durability in turn

You obviously don't understand the word "quantify", and you obviously don't understand what actually matters next to a modern military. Read: Galadriel's feat is not impressive at all.

Yeah, I mean, I fail to see where destroying a fortress several hundred meters+ wide and even higher to the point where nothing remains with an attack is unimpressive, but hey, donwplayers goin' downplay

And remember gentlemen, calcs are the end all be all of anything. I mean Kratos stopping Titans who can hold up the surfaces of planets from palmslapping him to death must be less impressive than a MOAB because there are no calcs for the palmslap amirite?

Raiden flipping Excelsus and using it's own several story high sized arm as a ****ing weapon? No calcs for it, so there's no way it could surpass even a 125mm in power!

😆 They can output megatons, which you would understand if you actually knew what "Kilotons" meant.

1000 tons of TNT right? I'm sorry is there some sort of obscure definition of the word you cool kids use I don't know about

Plus, triple digit kiloton power being their level of attack power, whereas U.S higher up shit is at that level. If they hit them with a megaton bomb or something at point blank then yes, they could kill most Maia

That and surface area against human sized targets, given power disperses the futher away one is from ground zero of an explosion, etc

That is a flawed calc which arbitrarily categorizes the intensity of the quake based on a chart that didn't actually support the conclusion, amongst various other absurd leaps that you wouldn't understand given that you obviously never took high school physics. And guess what? 600 kilotons isn't impressive at all by modern standards, like, have you honestly been living under a rock for the past 50 years?[QUOTE]

No, it refers to the effects of shit happening far away, which is alot of people feeling the effects of such a thing, which would constitute such a level of power if you read the calc posted. Hence why Kaiser got the result he did

That and Sauron being more powerful than Osse who raised a small country and moved it around with ease, which again, exceeds any nuke we have in terms of power, and makes "earthquake creation" look pithy

[QUOTE]That "stylistic choice" can't just be handwaved away. If you're going to take descriptions of his abilities at face value, you can't handwave the conditions in which his abilities can or would be applied in combat away. To do so is the epitome of a double standard, and you obviously seem hell bent on cherry picking the evidence that supports you.

"Didn't do such things every single fight/situation he was ever in so it doesn't count here"

"Low ends count as valid evidence too"

No he can't[/B]

Lack of collateral damage is not an argument so yes, he can

Originally posted by Skybreaker I would be fine with any interpretation of their abilities that attempts to fit the observable evidence in the most parsimonious manner, rather than openly nitpicking feats and interpretations while not giving a damn about logic or consistency.

Nope, the fact that people of higher IQ's would recognize that higher and lower end feats need to be reconciled to create a consistent model of events, just like in RL, while you openly make the most absurd interpretations and openly admit and ignore the fact that it doesn't make any sense given the plot and circumstances.

That isn't how vs debating fiction works. At all.

When you analyse a fictional universe you don't take every single teensy tiny showing, categorise them and go with the mean. What you do is you look for the higher end spectrum of feats, that are repeated and not one off feats, snip out obvious outliers and make sure there were no circumstances that would make it unusable in a neutral battleground (like say, a battleground or object that would have given him a power up that would be non standard)

Considering alot of series high end shit that is regarded as consistent only happens 2 or 3 times if you're lucky for most series. Maybe a dozen or so times for longer running series like Marvel. Want to nitpick everything? All those feats become meaningless

Example in Bleach, had only one quantifiably hypersonic feat for ages. Took them 580 chapters to get another one

DBZ? Took until the Frieza Saga to get a planet busting feat, which i got 2 from Frieza (once in a flashback, implied first form, second time in Final Form). Took until the Buu Saga to get another feat on that level. Everything else is either small mountain or island busting

Yu Yu Hakusho took until Chapter Black to get mountain busting. Nothing as impressive happened again afterwards

A Fantastic Four respect thread on the OBD only found like, 10-15 quantifiable feats per 50 issues

By that logic Bleach isn't hypersonic+ ecause only 2 quantifiable events of such a thing happened, DBZ is only mountain busting, EoS YYH is < mountain busting because nothing good happened after Chapter Black. Just some Prime Raizen hype and S Class demons powerscaling and shit

Still sure you want to go with the "go with the mean of things" logic? Not sure you'd want to

I would expect a DBZ character to typically produce explosions with their ki blasts comparable to large modern day ordinance. I would have no qualms with someone pointing out that they could planet bust with difficulty under certain circumstances. I would not be OK with someone claiming that Z warriors would planet-bust with every single ki blast they throw because of power scaling even when they don't do this in the canon when it would have made sense to do so.

Interesting. Tell me, do you believe that Piccolo's island razer pre Saiyan Saga>>any attack in the Saiyan Saga even because SS-onwards chars going all out doesn't bust the planet (or at least cause surface destruction) despite Piccolo's casual shit busting the moon the night after Raditz showed up. Or SSJG Goku and Bills in BOTG were only city busting because that was the extent of colleteral damage?

And yeah, powerscaling is a thing. Unless you believe Daimao Piccolo could one shot Super Perfect Cell because of superior collateral damage, for instance

No, pointing out that your interpretation of Morgoth's abilities (he'll basically solo the US military) is in contradiction to what he actually does in canon (he struggles with armies of Elves you have conceded don't really stand a chance against the US military). If he won't do it to the Elves for whatever reason, why the hell do those reasons suddenly dissipate here?

Again, PIS and CIS are not in play, and A>B>C logic

Also when did he struggle against mook Elves, he himself, I mean? I believe he was also arrested by high elf lords (Oh, and one of them with some assistance was able to down Ancalagon, ala, same dragon who levelled 3 larger than Everest Mountains by falling on them, and drove back the Host of the Valar, albiet with some help from fellow dragons)

Beside the point, may I ask why LOTR's low ends would be any different then any other series which low ends would just be scoffed at and ignored, hm?

Dumb argument. He was trying to keep his friends alive, so therefore he wouldn't protect them from wargs? And he does use magic to kill several goblins earlier in the book; it just happens that his powers are far less impressive than you think they are.

Because he's never done better than slay a gang wargs before

And yeah, getting your mates up trees when you have nowhere else to run to kinda tends to keep you alive, who would have thought?

BTW, just to burst your bubble, even were he not allowed to use magic, it has nothing to do with the discussion of durability, and the observation that Sauron and other supposedly impressive powers were killed or defeated by weapons far, far, far less potent in observed abilities than even a single MOAB. And we have thousands of them.

Well there's always creating energy shields to stop such attacks (Gandalf doing this to stop a Balrog's attacks), or blastwaves dependant on how far away they'd be

Oooohhh, kilotons! Even ignoring your failure to justify your calculation with your pre-high school understanding of physics or mathematics, why the **** do you still insist that kilotons are a game changer against a modern military? We can output megatons on their asses, and we can do so from across the ****ing planet.

lolelitsm

Other than the fact that they could easily dominate ground forces and anything short of nukes and with nukes you'd at best be hoping for an MAD scenario due to the sheer AoE they'd cover, yeah

Should I bring up the feat where Balrogs travel across a country or something to reach Morgoth shortly after he screams as a feat of speed (Balrogs not even being the fastest of beings in the verse), meaning have fun targeting them with nukes? Though I guess that's narrative hyperbole or an outlier according to you, right?

Neither of which you have established, because you actually think "I think that's kilotons IIRC" is a reasonable argument.

Again, Sauron being more powerful than Osse who can raise countires from the depths and move them around. Eonwe being above Sauron

Interestingly enough, should have mentioned how Sauron or Saruman could willingly surrender, corrupt and mind control U.S leaders, like Sauron did to Numenor. Why slug it out directly, mass political unrest and civil warfare, anybody?

Then again, I remembered, if there's no calc, it doesn't count

You are...really, really embarrassing yourself.

And the worst part is, unless if you're bluffing about your debating experience as well, you're actually pretty old. An adult, at the least. [/B]

That's nice dear. Still waiting for the time when the U.S had anything in even the gigaton range, then they might stand a chance again ****ers like Ancalagon

And yes, again, raw power and physical stats tend to crush verses that have no advantage over you save numerical superiority, hence why anyone in DBZ Raditz tier can solo the Holy Shonen Trinity (Nardo, Blech and One Piece), or why Thor could solo Mass Effect or Halo (barring possibly Forerunner era shit) with impunity

But yeah, shit like Ancalagon levelling three larger than Everest by falling on them, High Elves destroying several hundred meters+ fortresses with their magic power with some ease, higher tier Maia moving countries around and making earthquakes that happened across countrysides and Morgoth raising mountain ranges happened whether you like it or not

You bullshit reasons for the contrary (assuming they have to be using what appears to be their top notch performance and most useful abilities in every single situation they were ever in, and fighting the way that you think that they should, and the setting having to happen the way you think it should and using armies to do their dirty work rather than zipping around nuking ****ing everything, as if you own the setting and are in charge of what goes) are just pathetic attempts at weaseling your way out of feats not to your liking. Again, a vast majority of fictional universes only have what appears to be their best feats performed a few times out of the entirety of the story and alot of super powerful beings in fiction have massive armies to back them

Going by your logic DBZ characters cannot planet bust because most of the time when they fight all out the planet remains in tact, the TARDIS can't use it's tractor beam to tow planets and neutron stars because it doesn't do it in every episode, Superman can't push planets around because he doesn't do it in every single issue, and whenever he fights someone on his tier, he doesn't bust the damn planet

DE Palpatine isn't a planet razer because he uses armies and starfleets and has been kidnapped by humans, Darkseid isn't multiversal in some incarnations because he uses armies too, Galactus isn't multistellar at his weakest because he uses starbusting+ herald tiers to find planets for him to feed on, various gods and demons, etc in mythology and religion are not powerful because they have massive armies and have lots of worshippers

It's a goddamn retarded downplaying tactic that's not a valid argument, it's never been a valid arguement and it's never going to be a valid argument. So quit it

Got to love it when people believe that because a verse isn't portrayed like a shonen manga and it's characters use armies to do their shit for them rather than zip around nuking ****ing everything like he's a ****ing DBZ character they can just ignore feats and powerscaling all day erry day. Amazing, isn't it?

The whole "nitpick a bunch of low ends and act like it means higher end ones are invalid" is also the funniest tactic imho

Originally posted by StealthRanger
I was referring to how a nuke could definitely bust up a mountain due to the energy of it being enough to pulverise such a volume of rock

I was unaware of instances where mountains were destroyed IRL so I said they likely could, but you know, keep playing elitist

It's not "playing elitist" to point out that you attempted to make claims as to the destructive capability of nukes when you had absolutely no clue what you were talking about. You've bluffed plenty of times through this whole debate, and I'm sorry, but you're not being very subtle about it. The vast majority of the supposedly monstrous feats you assign to the First Age players are actually quite trivial by modern day standards, and it's quite baffling that you don't realize this.

That wasn't what I was alluding to and you know it, but by all means keep playing dumb

There you go bluffing away again, because you obviously have no idea how "energy" works. You claimed that being able to do a certain amount of work in X manner necessarily translates to being able to do an equivalent quantity in Y. This is blatantly untrue, so please enlighten on what you were alluding to, and how my analogy has nothing to do with it.

Fascinating. Tell me, are you the kind of person who'd say that moving a planet across a solar sytem in a short time is weaker than the meteor that wipes the dinosaurs off the face of the earth because there are no calcs for planet moving?

Wow, your ignorance of high school physics is really not something you can hide mate, you certainly can calc "moving a planet across a solar system" in a timeframe.

"durr focusing on lower end shit and supposed intended portrayal and downplaying higher end shit while harping on the same bored, tired and obsolete downplayer tactics that didn't work in 2008 and copouting feats with the narrative hyperbole excuse and general goalpost shifting"
[quote]

And still you fail to understand that what I have done is to establish a consistent model of Tolkien's description of events, where "lower end" (read: sensible to the plot) descriptions are taken at face value, and "higher end" feats are treated as hyperbole. The latter's existence is not dismissed, it is simply interpreted in the framework of literary prose well understood and employed by Tolkien himself.

You, on the other hand, have taken the feats you cherry pick at face value, dismissed the existence of the lower end feats, and then openly declared that lower end feats are irrelevant (how convenient of you!). Of course, you don't bother to justify this double standard, besides vaguely appealing to 2008 debating standards, as though there were some sort of ****ing rule-set.

[quote]
Well if you want to use this line of logic then the U.S don't have nukes because they didn't use them in every single campaign they were ever involved in, or because they use infantry in a war

Boy, the point continues to fly over your thick headed skull. The US doesn't use nukes in warfare because of their dangerous repercussions. It would not be fair to conclude that the US does not possess nuclear weapons since we have video footage of their existence (although if all one had were superfluous prose, it would be perfectly reasonable to be a little skeptical). It would be fair to point out that the US would not immediately resort to nuclear war in any vs. scenario where the same inhibitions that prevent it from normally using them still apply.

Thanks for shooting yourself in the foot, because your analogy essentially takes down your own Morgoth-wanking; if Morgoth doesn't use his alleged powers in actual warfare, either he doesn't' have them, or he cannot use them for whatever reasons that aren't magically going to disappear at your convenience.

Also, crying narrative hyperbole doesn't make it so.

No, but pointing out that such an interpretation is more reasonable and parsimonious would, given that the alternative is to literally dismiss lower end feats' existence or relevance, as you've admittedly done without shame. Interpreting quotes as hyperbole >>>> tossing out quotes altogether.

Hyperbole would be something like "these guys clashed swords and unleashed the force of a meteorite on impact" or something like that, if it's describing raising an entire mountain range regardless of choice of wording, then it ****ing happened. No if's, but's or anything else's about it

Why should I be impressed that Morgoth can raise a mountain range? How quickly did he raise it? How large was the mountain range? How the hell is this going to save him when the nukes come out?

But if I wanted to as you oh-so-eloquently put it "take everything hyper literally and go with the highest end interpretations" I could have said Morgoth and Fingolfin are massively hypersonic+ because Morgoth's darts were described as darts of lightning and Fingolfin kept up with him and Fingolfin was able to land hits on him

😆 If you're going to interpret "fast as lightning" as literally as fast as lightning, you're not even trying anymore. That has to be one of the most common figures of speech in the language.

Almost on par with the "Thor doesn't make Hawkeye and Captain America obsolete when the Avengers fight someone so he can't be all that powerful" levels of downplaying on Spergbattles

Don't you notice that, since you lack the analytical abilities to actually explain your argument through rational discussion, you just make random analogies and appeal to your personal incredulity?

But yeah, it's not a ****ing shonen. Enough will the damn downplaying. "Why does/doesn't he do what I think he should have" is not a valid argument at all and it certainly does not let you weasel your way out of feats and powerscaling

Why? Because you say so? Why should I expect Morgoth to fight the US with more potency than he fights Elves and men you admit are no match for said US military? Why should I expect Morgoth's behavior in this war to differ so drastically from his behavior in the actual canon?

Neither will shit like "no collateral damage so it's not powerful", "doesn't do it every single time so it doesn't count"

If you want to throw out big boy words like "kiloton" and "megaton", you concede to the principles of physics, in which case collateral damage is necessary from simple thermodynamics.

Downplaying isn't a valid tactic either. If he did it, it'd be logically capable of being done by him

Yes, but your claim that he would do it in every circumstance, even though he canonically hasn't done it in every circumstance, is a rule you pulled out of your ass.

By who's authority? Yours?

By the observation that appeals to popularity are logical fallacies, and that nobody is being fooled by your bluffing.

Might want to try something along the lines of "ignoring intended portrayal and authors intent and going with actual feats and shit" instead. Just saying

😆 Did you just admit to ignoring Morgoth's intended portrayal?

Also, PIS has no bearing in debates, neither does CIS

Of course, you're going to attribute to the constraints on Morgoth's character that are fundamental to the whole lore and plot of middle earth (read: all the armies and the wars don't exist by your DBZ-esque vision of LotR), and not superfluous pieces of prose? Because why?

It's almost like you don't realise that creating craters 50 km deep (at least, to get deep enough to have lava pour out) would be displacing a shitload of matter, also requiring an absurd amount of energy to do so.

Run the numbers then.

And due to being such a strength feat, would require an absurd amount of durability in turn

...no, it wouldn't?

Yeah, I mean, I fail to see where destroying a fortress several hundred meters+ wide and even higher to the point where nothing remains with an attack is unimpressive, but hey, donwplayers goin' downplay

It is unimpressive. Do you have any idea what the American military in the 21st century is capable of?

And remember gentlemen, calcs are the end all be all of anything. I mean Kratos stopping Titans who can hold up the surfaces of planets from palmslapping him to death must be less impressive than a MOAB because there are no calcs for the palmslap amirite?

There are calcs for the palmslap. You just need a comprehension of elementary Newtonian mechanics. But way to make yourself look silly again.

1000 tons of TNT right? I'm sorry is there some sort of obscure definition of the word you cool kids use I don't know about

Us "cool kids" might understand physics 101, while you clearly do not.

Plus, triple digit kiloton power being their level of attack power, whereas U.S higher up shit is at that level. If they hit them with a megaton bomb or something at point blank then yes, they could kill most Maia

More fail from you. Triple digit kiloton power is not "higher up shit" for the US. We can easily manufacture megaton nuclear warheads, and more importantly, we can fling them at you from across the planet.

That and surface area against human sized targets, given power disperses the futher away one is from ground zero of an explosion, etc

And this doesn't apply both ways?

"Didn't do such things every single fight/situation he was ever in so it doesn't count here"

Nope, just didn't do things in any of the relevant wars he's been in.

"Low ends count as valid evidence too"

Um, yes, of course they do?

Lack of collateral damage is not an argument

How old are you again? So collateral damage is an accurate measure of destructive ability, and yet somehow a lack of it is not? 😆

Originally posted by StealthRanger
That isn't how vs debating fiction works. At all.

Why? Because you say so? You need to justify your conditions on some sort of rational argument, not this thinly veiled appeal to popular practice.

When you analyse a fictional universe you don't take every single teensy tiny showing,

Way to strawman. Morgoth's limitations are hardly "teensy tiny"; they are actually the vast majority of his feats. Your own ridiculous case is actually predicated on those "single teensy" showings.

categorise them and go with the mean.

Not the mean, you go with the most parsimonious theory that fits the evidence. This is the same empirical analysis used in every successful field of study in human history since the rise of modern science. You've just made this counterproposal up and vaguely appealed to some conventions invented in 2008. 🙄

What you do is you look for the higher end spectrum of feats, that are repeated and not one off feats, snip out obvious outliers and make sure there were no circumstances that would make it unusable in a neutral battleground (like say, a battleground or object that would have given him a power up that would be non standard)

Translation: I can choose whatever feats I want, and ignore whatever feats I want.

I suppose Spiderman is more powerful than the Hulk now? He did defeat Firelord, did he not?

Considering alot of series high end shit that is regarded as consistent only happens 2 or 3 times if you're lucky for most series. Maybe a dozen or so times for longer running series like Marvel. Want to nitpick everything? All those feats become meaningless

"nitpick"? Your feats are the ones in the minority here. I'm referencing the whole undertaking of the series' major wars; you're cherry picking individual one-liner descriptions of particular feats that are tangential to the narrative.

DBZ? Took until the Frieza Saga to get a planet busting feat,

No it didn't. Vegeta was a planet buster.

By that logic Bleach isn't hypersonic+ ecause only 2 quantifiable events of such a thing happened, DBZ is only mountain busting, EoS YYH is < mountain busting because nothing good happened after Chapter Black. Just some Prime Raizen hype and S Class demons powerscaling and shit

Nope. You reconcile, you don't immediately throw shit out. You reconcile varying destructive capabilities of DBZ warriors by pointing to the nature of the ki attacks, the effort and time put into them, and concerns such as collateral damage. You don't just pretend that the lower end feats don't exist and invent your own imaginary Super Buu whose coughs destroy moons because powerscaling.

Still sure you want to go with the "go with the mean of things" logic? Not sure you'd want to

It's not "go with the mean of things", it's more nuanced than that. It's called "Occam's razor". You should try reading about it sometime.

Interesting. Tell me, do you believe that Piccolo's island razer pre Saiyan Saga>>any attack in the Saiyan Saga even because SS-onwards chars going all out doesn't bust the planet (or at least cause surface destruction) despite Piccolo's casual shit busting the moon the night after Raditz showed up. Or SSJG Goku and Bills in BOTG were only city busting because that was the extent of colleteral damage?

There are multiple theories as to the nature of DBZ ki blasts and how to quantify their output. The one your logic would propose is to pretend that the lack of planet busting in the post SS era didn't actually happen, and that post SS characters would be casually planet busting with their muscle flexes. This contradicts those "lower end feats", and would be quite ludicrous to assert in a debate.

And yeah, powerscaling is a thing. Unless you believe Daimao Piccolo could one shot Super Perfect Cell because of superior collateral damage, for instance

Powerscaling is a thing. That's why I declare by powerscaling that Morgoth and Sauron are vulnerable to pre-gunpowder armies.

Again, PIS and CIS are not in play, and A>B>C logic

So the majority of his showings and the very existence of lesser armies is "PIS", and it's never occurred to you that expendable pieces of fluff might not be?

Also when did he struggle against mook Elves, he himself, I mean? I believe he was also arrested by high elf lords (Oh, and one of them with some assistance was able to down Ancalagon, ala, same dragon who levelled 3 larger than Everest Mountains by falling on them, and drove back the Host of the Valar, albiet with some help from fellow dragons)

Wow, after I explained this to you once I thought you'd have learned your lesson, "high elf lords" are nothing to a fleet of B-52s.

Beside the point, may I ask why LOTR's low ends would be any different then any other series which low ends would just be scoffed at and ignored, hm?

Because any intelligent person would not scoff at and ignore consistent "low end feats" that are necessary to the very power and plot dynamics of the mythos.

Because he's never done better than slay a gang wargs before

Way to dodge the point. Tolkien narrated Gandalf's state of mind; he was genuinely terrified for his life.

Well there's always creating energy shields to stop such attacks (Gandalf doing this to stop a Balrog's attacks), or blastwaves dependant on how far away they'd be

Prove that energy shields can block nukes, please.

lolelitsm

No, it's just contempt for people who pretend to know something they really don't. That's quite the form of dishonesty on your part, and you shouldn't have tried bluffing knowledge of high school physics when you had none.

Other than the fact that they could easily dominate ground forces and anything short of nukes and with nukes you'd at best be hoping for an MAD scenario due to the sheer AoE they'd cover, yeah

"easily dominate ground forces" that, with satellite and radio communication would know the location of all ME forces at any given point, which artillery that can knock them out past line of sight, and with air support that your side can't exactly see, let alone touch? 😆

Should I bring up the feat where Balrogs travel across a country or something to reach Morgoth shortly after he screams as a feat of speed (Balrogs not even being the fastest of beings in the verse), meaning have fun targeting them with nukes? Though I guess that's narrative hyperbole or an outlier according to you, right?

Wow, Balrogs can travel across a country? 😆

Again, Sauron being more powerful than Osse who can raise countires from the depths and move them around. Eonwe being above Sauron

If Sauron were that powerful, he would not have fled from an army of elves and men. Powerscaling, remember?

Interestingly enough, should have mentioned how Sauron or Saruman could willingly surrender, corrupt and mind control U.S leaders, like Sauron did to Numenor. Why slug it out directly, mass political unrest and civil warfare, anybody?

Yeah, now you're just getting desperate. But thanks for conceding defeat by completely changing the spirit and parameters of the round.

Then again, I remembered, if there's no calc, it doesn't count

Pretty much everything substantive you've pointed to could be calc'd with the actual quote and some more specifics, but you'd have to take algebra to be able to do so.

That's nice dear. Still waiting for the time when the U.S had anything in even the gigaton range, then they might stand a chance again ****ers like Ancalagon

It takes gigatons to down Ancalagon now? A magical elven sword can output gigatons? 😆

Do you have any idea what a gigaton nuke could actually do? It's massive overkill even if Ancalgogon is the size of several mountain ranges.

And yes, again, raw power and physical stats tend to crush verses that have no advantage over you save numerical superiority,

Ridiculous strawman. The US has supreme logistical and strategic advantages such as satellite and radio communication, radar, chemical warfare and an airforce, not to mention superior "raw power", given its apocalyptic nuclear arsenal.

hence why anyone in DBZ Raditz tier can solo the Holy Shonen Trinity (Nardo, Blech and One Piece), or why Thor could solo Mass Effect or Halo (barring possibly Forerunner era shit) with impunity

A competent debater could have used actual arguments rather than vaguely appealing to irrelevant analogies.

But yeah, shit like Ancalagon levelling three larger than Everest by falling on them,

So what? Do you realize how powerful nuclear weapons are?

High Elves destroying several hundred meters+ fortresses with their magic power with some ease,

So what? Do you realize how powerful nuclear weapons are?

higher tier Maia moving countries around and making earthquakes that happened across countrysides and Morgoth raising mountain ranges happened whether you like it or not

I've already asked for timescales on these feats, so go ahead and provide them.

You bullshit reasons for the contrary (assuming they have to be using what appears to be their top notch performance and most useful abilities in every single situation they were ever in, and fighting the way that you think that they should, and the setting having to happen the way you think it should and using armies to do their dirty work rather than zipping around nuking ****ing everything, as if you own the setting and are in charge of what goes) are just pathetic attempts at weaseling your way out of feats not to your liking. Again, a vast majority of fictional universes only have what appears to be their best feats performed a few times out of the entirety of the story and alot of super powerful beings in fiction have massive armies to back them

So going off your logic, I suppose the Last Alliance of Elves and Men could easily defeat modern day Iceland, given that they scared Sauron, and given that you think Sauron is a threat to the 21st century USA, via powerscaling?

Going by your logic DBZ characters cannot planet bust because most of the time when they fight all out the planet remains in tact, the TARDIS can't use it's tractor beam to tow planets and neutron stars because it doesn't do it in every episode, Superman can't push planets around because he doesn't do it in every single issue, and whenever he fights someone on his tier, he doesn't bust the damn planet

It gets frustrating when I explain a point to you, and then you take it and forget about it after scrolling down a few lines. "Going by my logic" DBZ characters can planet bust in the same context and qualifiers that they can in the observable canon, not by flicking their fingers because powerscaling.

DE Palpatine isn't a planet razer because he uses armies and starfleets and has been kidnapped by humans,

Horrible analogy. SW ships can also planet raze and there are millions of them, armies have obvious tactical and strategic importance beyond planetary destruction, and being kidnapped has nothing to do with his Force storms.

Darkseid isn't multiversal in some incarnations because he uses armies too,

Darkseid's armies are considerably stronger than Morgoth's, and he's never been challenged by comparable armies before now, has he? Morgoth has.

Galactus isn't multistellar at his weakest because he uses starbusting+ herald tiers to find planets for him to feed on,

No, but it would be fair to say that Galactus can't insta-locate and eat planets with ease, because we can clearly observe that he doesn't do that.

various gods and demons, etc in mythology and religion are not powerful because they have massive armies and have lots of worshippers

If any were actually challenged by those armies, I would agree with you.

It's a goddamn retarded downplaying tactic that's not a valid argument, it's never been a valid arguement and it's never going to be a valid argument. So quit it [/B]

You keep saying so and appealing quite childishly to board convention, but you've never actually explained why this idea of parsimony shouldn't be applied.

All the forces from the War of Wrath completely dominate us, which included the likes of Ancalagon a dragon that dwarfed 3 mountains that each were larger than Mt. Everest, Maiar like Balrogs whom can crow the peaks of mountains with storms and Eönwë whom was the chief of the Maiar, making hin stronger than Arien, the Maiar who drove the Sun from the First Age, whilst not as big as the actual sun was still just as bright, implying large levels of power. All of these forces shattered Beleriend, a continent the size of Middle-Earth which is as big as Europe.

Originally posted by The Merchant
All the forces from the War of Wrath completely dominate us, which included the likes of Ancalagon a dragon that dwarfed 3 mountains that each were larger than Mt. Everest, Maiar like Balrogs whom can crow the peaks of mountains with storms and Eönwë whom was the chief of the Maiar, making hin stronger than Arien, the Maiar who drove the Sun from the First Age, whilst not as big as the actual sun was still just as bright, implying large levels of power. All of these forces shattered Beleriend, a continent the size of Middle-Earth which is as big as Europe.

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