Team DC vs Team Marvel

Originally posted by leonidas
seriously. he's seems to be saying dc's kinetic energy is different from marvel's. which it may be, but for the forum's sake, they need to be assumed to be the same.

following that line of reasoning, their concept of time is very different. their fundamental sources of energy are different. by the fact that the IG didn't work, it is clear evidence that ALL dc's forces are fundamentally different from all of marvel's forces.

here's another analogy:

pc allows ss control over atomic structure.
sf allows control over KE.

if we allow carver's interpretation, we must also allow for the fact that because ss's own ability to control matter at the atomic level is derived from the PC, a source of power not available in the DCU, he shouldn't be able to affect any matter or any character IN the dcu. though they have molecules and atoms, those atoms are governed by fundamentally different forces.

that . . . makes absolutely zero sense.

I tried to explain it to him. Just because it's governed by the Speed Force in the DCU, it doesn't mean there isn't kinetic energy and motion in the Marvel Universe. It's still there, just in the DCU, the Flash uses the Speed Force to manipulate it. In a neutral battle field, the Flash should be able to do it to characters from Marvel, or otherwise a lot of arguments could be made, why a lot of matches would be null and void and so on. I tried to give some analogies but was to lazy at that time to elaborate on it to much.

I think he just misinterperted the way Flash steals speed, and the Speed Force works, hence the confusion.

Originally posted by leonidas
seriously. he's seems to be saying dc's kinetic energy is different from marvel's. which it may be, but for the forum's sake, they need to be assumed to be the same.

following that line of reasoning, their concept of time is very different. their fundamental sources of energy are different. by the fact that the IG didn't work, it is clear evidence that ALL dc's forces are fundamentally different from all of marvel's forces.

here's another analogy:

pc allows ss control over atomic structure.
sf allows control over KE.

if we allow carver's interpretation, we must also allow for the fact that because ss's own ability to control matter at the atomic level is derived from the PC, a source of power not available in the DCU, he shouldn't be able to affect any matter or any character IN the dcu. though they have molecules and atoms, those atoms are governed by fundamentally different forces.

that . . . makes absolutely zero sense.

Your post didnt make sense, silver surfer can affect things thats not possessed with the power of the pc. Silver surfer has affected mutants, humans, solar powered beings, etc... not just people weilding the pc; silver surfer powers has no boundaries.

Dc on the other hand stated that there universe is connected by the speed force, every being is has a connection to it. Now your statement would make sense if EVERY being that exist in the marvel u had a connection to the pc. Since surfer has complete control over the pc and the marvel u is connected by it (has some kind of bond with it) then surfer could absorb/cancel out/do whatever he wants to whoever he wants but surfer has so many feats thats involving none pc related people that anything used against him can be backed up.

Zoom wasnt connected by the speed force so flash efforts of absorbing his speed was cancelled out. No one on the marvel side is connected to the speed force so him absorbing there speed shouldnt even be debated imo.

Hope you understand what I typed, doing two things at one time.

Originally posted by carver9
Your post didnt make sense, silver surfer can affect things thats not possessed with the power of the pc. Silver surfer has affected mutants, humans, solar powered beings, etc... not just people weilding the pc; silver surfer powers has no boundaries.

Dc on the other hand stated that there universe is connected by the speed force, every being is has a connection to it. Now your statement would make sense if EVERY being that exist in the marvel u had a connection to the pc. Since surfer has complete control over the pc and the marvel u is connected by it (has some kind of bond with it) then surfer could absorb/cancel out/do whatever he wants to whoever he wants but surfer has so many feats thats involving none pc related people that anything used against him can be backed up.

Zoom wasnt connected by the speed force so flash efforts of absorbing his speed was cancelled out. No one on the marvel side is connected to the speed force so him absorbing there speed shouldnt even be debated imo.

Hope you understand what I typed, doing two things at one time.

Dude, the Flash does not only affect people with the Speed Force. The Speed Force governs motion and kinetic energy so it allows the Flash to manipulate kinetic energy, but it still doesn't change the fact that he manipulates something that exists for Marvel characters as well. Only a handful of people are connected to the Speed Force. Mystical beings like Black Adam, and even the entire planet have had their speed stolen. Only a few people are connected to the Speed Force which governs kinetic energy and motion. That's the way Flash manipulates it. He uses the Speed Force to manipulate kinetic energy. In a neutral field, even characters from Marvel posses kinetic energy and motion.

You would have an argument if the Flash only stole speed, from people who are connected to the Speed Force, or only stole Speed Force energy or something along those lines. He doesn't.

He uses the Speed Force to steal and manipulate kinetic energy and motion. It's only a means to an end. There should be no reason why in a neutral battle field it wouldn't work on beings from Marvel.

His analogy is sound. Just like the Silver Surfer with the Power Cosmic, the Flash isn't limited to people who draw their power from the same power source.

No one in the DCU besides Wally West, Barry Allen, Bart Allen, Jesse Quick and Jay Garrick are connected to the Speed Force. I don't even know why the speed stealing didn't work on Zoom. I tossed it up to John's ignoring power levels of characters like he always does. The most logical explanation is that Zoom doesn't move using kinetic energy/motion in the same sense as everyone else. He manipulates chronal energy i.e time in relation to himself to simulate super speed and control his speed.

only because in dc, kinetic energy stems from the speed force.

and the silver surfer has the power cosmic invested in him, nomatter where he goes he can absorb additional cosmic energy from the universe he's in.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
only because in dc, kinetic energy stems from the speed force.

and the silver surfer has the power cosmic invested in him, nomatter where he goes he can absorb additional cosmic energy from the universe he's in.

This post is what rage seems not to understand.

Its common sense on why flash pull some of the feats that he pulls in regards of absorbing speed.

well, i think this topic has gone on long enough, other than the silver surfer, team marvel pretty much gets handled.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
only because in dc, kinetic energy stems from the speed force.

and the silver surfer has the power cosmic invested in him, nomatter where he goes he can absorb additional cosmic energy from the universe he's in.

Kinetic energy is governed by the Speed Force. He uses the Speed Force to manipulate it, but it's still kinetic energy at the end of the day. Simply a means to an end.

There is still kinetic energy in Marvel. Are we to assume that kinetic energy is different between the two Universes, in a neutral battle field?

If we use that argument, than a lot of the fights between characters from the two companies, get thrown out the window.

It doesn't make any sense. We assume kinetic energy is kinetic energy, just in the DCU, the Speed Force governs it.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Kinetic energy is governed by the Speed Force. He uses the Speed Force to manipulate it, but it's still kinetic energy at the end of the day. Simply a means to an end.

There is still kinetic energy in Marvel. Are we to assume that kinetic energy is different between the two Universes, in a neutral battle field?

If we use that argument, than a lot of the fights between characters from the two companies, get thrown out the window.

It doesn't make any sense. We assume kinetic energy is kinetic energy, just in the DCU, the Speed Force governs it.

OMG, there is a difference; how many times will this be brought up. Everyone in dc kinetic energy is basically connected to the speed force. Marvel earth kinetic energy isnt connected by the speed force. Flash can affect things that is connect someway by the speed force whereas he cant do the same towards something that isnt connected by the speed force (zoom for example).

Example, if Marvel came up with some crazy sh** saying that everyone has a connection to the pc and in every fight silver surfer got into he basically absorbed there powers because they have some kind of connection to the pc. Then he fights someone from dc that doesnt have that same connection with the pc, we cant just say that since surfer absorbed someone powers that has connection to a power source that he can absorb, that he can absorb someone powers that has no kind of connection to the pc.

Thats like saying since vulcan can take away the xgene he can also take away powers from aliens, etc....

Just crazy.

Originally posted by carver9
OMG, there is a difference; how many times will this be brought up. Everyone in dc kinetic energy is basically connected to the speed force. Marvel earth kinetic energy isnt connected by the speed force. Flash can affect things that is connect someway by the speed force whereas he cant do the same towards something that isnt connected by the speed force (zoom for example).

Dude, like I said, a means to an end. The Speed Force, allows him to manipulate kinetic energy and motion in the DCU. In a neutral battle field, if we are saying he can't, then the only logical reason one would make this argument is that kinetic energy and motion is different in Marvel than it is the DCU. If we use that argument, then a lot of the "vs.boards" threads are rather pointless.

No one is connected to the Speed Force besides those handful of people. It governs kinetic energy and motion in the DCU. It governs it, but that doesn't immediately establish a connection between the Speed Force and everyone else.

The Speed Force allows him to manipulate kinetic energy. Kinetic energy. That exists in the Marvel Universe as well. In a neutral battle field, there should be absolutely no reason to assume it wouldn't work on beings from Marvel unless we use the argument that, kinetic energy from DCU, is different from Marvel. That would mean, then that a lot of characters powers from Marvel wouldn't work on characters from DCU.

That's like saying that the Silver Surfer, can't use his matter/energy manipulation on beings from DCU, because characters in the DCU are fundamentally different like say the kinetic energy in Marvel and the DCU. It can also be said, that in the Marvel Universe, the Power Cosmic, is a fundamental force that is part of the Universe that allows Silver Surfer the control and power he has, while that doesn't exist in the DCU, then characters from the DCU wouldn't be affected by Silver Surfer using matter manipulation. It's still matter manipulation, but since his using the Power Cosmic to do it, it would mean it wouldn't work.

That's akin to what you're trying to debate here for Flash, which doesn't make a lick of sense in a neutral battle field.

Zoom isn't connected to the Speed Force and is neither is anyone else besides the characters I listed. The only logical reason it didn't work on Zoom is because Zoom doesn't move using kinetic energy/motion in the same sense as everyone else does. He manipulates chronal energy i.e time in relation to himself to simulate super speed and control his speed. Although I blamed it on Johns ignoring power levels as usual.

Originally posted by carver9
Example, if Marvel came up with some crazy sh** saying that everyone has a connection to the pc and in every fight silver surfer got into he basically absorbed there powers because they have some kind of connection to the pc. Then he fights someone from dc that doesnt have that same connection with the pc, we cant just say that since surfer absorbed someone powers that has connection to a power source that he can absorb, that he can absorb someone powers that has no kind of connection to the pc.

That makes as much sense as what you are trying to debate for the Flash. He doesn't need someone to have a connection to the Speed Force to absorb their speed.

That's the situation for the Flash. What don't you get it?

The Flash absorbs kinetic energy/motion using the Speed Force, on beings who have no connection to it whatsoever. In Marvel, characters also posses kinetic energy/motion. In a neutral battle field it should work just fine. The only reason it wouldn't is because, characters from Marvel Universe, have kinetic energy/motion that works differently from those in the DCU, and that doesn't make sense. We have to assume it works the same way.

Originally posted by carver9
Thats like saying since vulcan can take away the xgene he can also take away powers from aliens, etc....

Just crazy.

Completely fault analogy. You don't get it all.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
There is still kinetic energy in Marvel. Are we to assume that kinetic energy is different between the two Universes, in a neutral battle field?

If we use that argument, than a lot of the fights between characters from the two companies, get thrown out the window.

It doesn't make any sense. We assume kinetic energy is kinetic energy, just in the DCU, the Speed Force governs it.

however, the primal connection the speed force has with all it's energy in which it can recall or imbue to all it's beneficiaries (through a conduit like the flash) isn't shared with other companies characters, even if they are in a neutral space.

and the speed force is exclusive (imo) since the speed force is a fundamental force in dc tied in with the physical laws of their universe.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Dude, like I said, a means to an end. The Speed Force, allows him to manipulate kinetic energy and motion in the DCU. In a neutral battle field, if we are saying he can't, then the only logical reason one would make this argument is that kinetic energy and motion is different in Marvel than it is the DCU. If we use that argument, then a lot of the "vs.boards" threads are rather pointless.

No one is connected to the Speed Force besides those handful of people. It governs kinetic energy and motion in the DCU. It governs it, but that doesn't immediately establish a connection between the Speed Force and everyone else.

The Speed Force allows him to manipulate kinetic energy. Kinetic energy. That exists in the Marvel Universe as well. In a neutral battle field, there should be absolutely no reason to assume it wouldn't work on beings from Marvel unless we use the argument that, kinetic energy from DCU, is different from Marvel. That would mean, then that a lot of characters powers from Marvel wouldn't work on characters from DCU.

That's like saying that the Silver Surfer, can't use his matter/energy manipulation on beings from DCU, because characters in the DCU are fundamentally different like say the kinetic energy in Marvel and the DCU. It can also be said, that in the Marvel Universe, the Power Cosmic, is a fundamental force that is part of the Universe that allows Silver Surfer the control and power he has, while that doesn't exist in the DCU, then characters from the DCU wouldn't be affected by Silver Surfer using matter manipulation. It's still matter manipulation, but since his using the Power Cosmic to do it, it would mean it wouldn't work.

That's akin to what you're trying to debate here for Flash, which doesn't make a lick of sense in a neutral battle field.

Zoom isn't connected to the Speed Force and is neither is anyone else besides the characters I listed. The only logical reason it didn't work on Zoom is because Zoom doesn't move using kinetic energy/motion in the same sense as everyone else does. He manipulates chronal energy i.e time in relation to himself to simulate super speed and control his speed. Although I blamed it on Johns ignoring power levels as usual.

That makes as much sense as what you are trying to debate for the Flash. He doesn't need someone to have a connection to the Speed Force to absorb their speed.

That's the situation for the Flash. What don't you get it?

The Flash absorbs kinetic energy/motion using the Speed Force, on beings who have no connection to it whatsoever. In Marvel, characters also posses kinetic energy/motion. In a neutral battle field it should work just fine. The only reason it wouldn't is because, characters from Marvel Universe, have kinetic energy/motion that works differently from those in the DCU, and that doesn't make sense. We have to assume it works the same way.

Completely fault analogy. You don't get it all.

Well said.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
this is my personal take: the speed force is the root of the kinetic energy (motion) of dc, the flashes have a somewhat spiritual connection with it, but the rest of the denizens of dc are just energized by it normally like the sun does the earth.

however, the primal connection the speed force has with all it's energy in which it can recall or imbue to all it's beneficiaries (through a conduit like the flash) isn't shared with other companies characters, even if they are in a neutral space.

and the speed force is exclusive (imo) since the speed force is a fundamental force in dc tied in with the physical laws of their universe.

Is that all pure speculation and guessing?

The Speed Force governs the motion of the DCU, and through it the Flash is allowed to manipulate motion/kinetic energy.

We have to assume that kinetic energy/motion is the same in a neutral battle field between the two companies. Based on that, I don't see why the Flash wouldn't be able to speed steal in a neutral battle field.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
only because in dc, kinetic energy stems from the speed force.

and the silver surfer has the power cosmic invested in him, nomatter where he goes he can absorb additional cosmic energy from the universe he's in.

and here you are implying that KE in dc is different from KE in marvel but there is no evidence to support that. we only know it originates from someplace different.

and carver--please answer these direct questions--there are no lords of chaos and order (at one time the source of dr fate's powers) in the marvel universe. if he casts a spell at spiderman, will it affect spidey on a neutral battlefield?

on a neutral battlefield, could thanos use the IG's powers and affects against spectre? what about takion? could he affect ss on a neutral battlefield, even though there is no source in the marvel universe?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Is that all pure speculation and guessing?

The Speed Force governs the motion of the DCU, and through it the Flash is allowed to manipulate motion/kinetic energy.

We have to assume that kinetic energy/motion is the same in a neutral battle field between the two companies. Based on that, I don't see why the Flash wouldn't be able to speed steal in a neutral battle field.

So youre basically saying that in a fight if flash is in the battle marvel team kinetic energy and motion also comes from the speed force.

You're also saying that this only take place when fighting against any flash.

So since the speed force governs kinetic energy in dc and flash can control that in a sense of taking speed, giving speed, etc..... any time he's in a battle, Marvel now follow the rules of dc and there kinetic energy is now a part of the force.

That doesnt make sense at all. 🙁

Originally posted by carver9
So youre basically saying that in a fight if flash is in the battle marvel team kinetic energy and motion also comes from the speed force.

You're also saying that this only take place when fighting against any flash.

So since the speed force governs kinetic energy in dc and flash can control that in a sense of taking speed, giving speed, etc..... any time he's in a battle, Marvel now follow the rules of dc and there kinetic energy is now a part of the force.

That doesnt make sense at all. 🙁

facepalm

The Speed Force governs kinetic energy and motion in the DCU, that's it. It doesn't mean that kinetic energy and motion, is different in Marvel from the DCU. It's the same in a neutral battle field. The Flash uses the Speed Force to manipulate kinetic energy and motion. Just because he uses the Speed Force it doesn't change the fact that it's still kinetic energy and motion his manipulating that exists in Marvel just as it does in the DCU.

What is wrong with you? I didn't say anything along those lines.

I'm saying that just because he uses the Speed Force to manipulate it, it doesn't change the fact that the "it" he manipulates is kinetic energy/motion which exists in Marvel. Based on the assumption they are a neutral battle field, he can do it to Marvel characters as well. It's only fair and makes sense if we follow the logic that we do on these boards.

Originally posted by leonidas
i . . . don't fully understand what you tried to say but i THINK you're right. in essence, having sufficient control of the SF allows for control over all kinetic energy since it is derived from the SF. it doesn't matter if the person whose speed is being stolen has a connection or not to the SF.

Yes and its exactly because of that that i believe flash shouldnt be able to steal surfers speed. (Note its surfer im talking about in this case not any other marvel character). As uve said flashes speed stealing is basically him draining KE (reducing molecular motion to zero) via the speedforce which governs it. Hence he should be able to steal speed from even characters that arent in DC since they make use of KE as well. However in regards to DC characters, flash has a distinct advantage when stealing speed: the fact that the speedforce governs all motion within DC. Therefore even when flash attempts to steal speed(reduce molecular motion to zero) from those who have high level matter manip and control over their atomic structure he is able to do so easily because despite their high level of molecular and atomic control,their molecular motion is still governed by the SF. In the case of surfer however he isnt under the authority of the SF and so flash wont have that advantage. Then with his extremely high level of control of his bodily energies and structure it is highly unlikely that flash will be able to steal his speed (reduce molecular motion to zero).

Originally posted by leonidas
and here you are implying that KE in dc is different from KE in marvel but there is no evidence to support that. we only know it originates from someplace different.

and carver--please answer these direct questions--there are no lords of chaos and order (at one time the source of dr fate's powers) in the marvel universe. if he casts a spell at spiderman, will it affect spidey on a neutral battlefield?

on a neutral battlefield, could thanos use the IG's powers and affects against spectre? what about takion? could he affect ss on a neutral battlefield, even though there is no source in the marvel universe?

The ke is different than the ke in marvel, it was stated on panel about dc ke

Originally posted by leonidas
and here you are implying that KE in dc is different from KE in marvel but there is no evidence to support that. we only know it originates from someplace different.

flash in a neutral space can use all of his powers, but marvel character X isn't all of a sudden connected to the speed force now in neutral space.

on a side not, i have a quick question:

if flash were to absorb the momentum of a bullet in flight, does the bullet fall down due to gravity or does the bullet remain stationary in the air?

if the bullet fall then the kinetic energy of momentum was taken away, but the bullet still had potential energy since it was raised off of the ground and therefor still had kinetic energy.

Originally posted by carver9
The ke is different than the ke in marvel, it was stated on panel about dc ke

facepalm

Originally posted by psycho gundam
all i'm saying is that kinetic energy in dc has a root called the speed force, and speed force manipulators can take/give kinetic energy to all it's recipients.

flash in a neutral space can use all of his powers, but marvel character X isn't all of a sudden connected to the speed force now in neutral space.

on a side not, i have a quick question:

if flash were to absorb the momentum of a bullet in flight, does the bullet fall down due to gravity or does the bullet remain stationary in the air?

if the bullet fall then the kinetic energy of momentum was taken away, but the bullet still had potential energy since it was raised off of the ground and therefor still had kinetic energy.

I'm not sure. I've seen them stay up frozen in the air.