^ Clearly, the penultimate moment was Batman, teh Caped Crusader and Dark Knight of Gotham City being zapped by beams. Clearly:
^ Clearly, the penultimate moment was Batman, teh Caped Crusader and Dark Knight of Gotham City being zapped by beams. Clearly:
I agree with Allankes here. BN was good IMO but FC was on another level of literary merit. Even the last two issues weren't that bad. I LOVE Batman as a character, he's my favorite hero but I don't understand how so many Bat-fans get their panties in a bunch because Batman did the only responsible thing he could have done in his situation: use a gun to shoot Darkseid. Or was he supposed to throw the radion at Darkseid and hope that it'd penetrate him? 😬
I haven't read the last issue of BN yet, but even so (unless the last issue compeltely ruins it) I can safely say I prefer BN.
Originally posted by Allankles
BN had sales, I'll give it that. But we've seen stories like BN so many times before. This wouldn't be a problem if BN wasn't hyped up as this super event to shake up the universe. It absolutely crumbled under the weight of expectation. A cliched, sometimes contrived tale billed as a redefining saga.
That is so strange. I felt it was completely the other way around. For me, whilst it was true that both events were overhyped, FC crumbled underneath the weight of expectation!
But, hey, to each their own.
Originally posted by willRules
I haven't read the last issue of BN yet, but even so (unless the last issue compeltely ruins it) I can safely say I prefer BN.That is so strange. I felt it was completely the other way around. For me, whilst it was true that both events were overhyped, FC crumbled underneath the weight of expectation!
But, hey, to each their own.
To me FC was even better executed than I thought it would be. After Countdown I was afraid we would see something in the same mold, but we got something better, much more substuntial.
Beyond, Revelations and FC 1-5 put Countdown to shame, absolutely buried its face in dirt. So if anything, to me FC exceeded expectations.
"The day that evil won" sounded like a bad way to phrase the event, but it turned out to be such a great apocalyptic tale.
Revelation by itself was awesome. It is one of my favorite arcs. Superman Beyond was okay, but FC(1-5) were barely good. Unlike Blackest Night, the story moved way to quick. There were many plot holes. Like Blackest Night, it suffered too much because of the way the villain was portrayed. The start of FC was a good kick off just like Blackest Night, but at the same time, they both failed to finish it. However, I like the ending in FC much more then BN. As for the story itself, Blackest Night is by far better then FC 1-5.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I agree with Allankes here. BN was good IMO but FC was on another level of literary merit. Even the last two issues weren't that bad. I LOVE Batman as a character, he's my favorite hero but I don't understand how so many Bat-fans get their panties in a bunch because Batman did the only responsible thing he could have done in his situation: use a gun to shoot Darkseid. Or was he supposed to throw the radion at Darkseid and hope that it'd penetrate him? 😬
Yeah, I never understood that either. I'm a Bats fan too (not hardcore, but a fan) and that was the Batman thing to do, it was that or let the god of evil destroy humanity beyond repair.
Originally posted by Blanket
FC was terrible. Let's not lie to ourselves.BN was average.
^^ This.
When I had to have FC explained to me in Morrison interviews as he picked through the hyper-obscure symbolism, rather than just by reading it, something was wrong. I'm an English major who also reads a ton of comics. The vast majority of the FC audience was less equipped to read it, including a few I spoke to personally, so I can only imagine their struggles and frustration at not understanding it. The small percentage that loved it wasn't worth mystifying even dedicated comic fans.
And for the record, I loved the whole Batman thing, and what it meant to him as a character. It was a profound moment....except I didn't experience it as a profound moment as I read the comic. I was a bit turned off by how sudden, random, and unexplained much of it was. I was only in awe of it when I read Morrison's explanation. Thus, I didn't enjoy the comic, I enjoyed a random rant about philosophy in an interview. The intention was great, the execution abysmal.
The whole thing was kinda like that.
Originally posted by Digi
^^ This.When I had to have FC explained to me in Morrison interviews as he picked through the hyper-obscure symbolism, rather than just by reading it, something was wrong. I'm an English major who also reads a ton of comics. The vast majority of the FC audience was less equipped to read it, including a few I spoke to personally, so I can only imagine their struggles and frustration at not understanding it. The small percentage that loved it wasn't worth mystifying even dedicated comic fans.
And for the record, I loved the whole Batman thing, and what it meant to him as a character. It was a profound moment....except I didn't experience it as a profound moment as I read the comic. I was a bit turned off by how sudden, random, and unexplained much of it was. I was only in awe of it when I read Morrison's explanation. Thus, I didn't enjoy the comic, I enjoyed a random rant about philosophy in an interview.
The whole thing was kinda like that.
I'm inclined to agree.
I would have much rather "got" Final Crisis upon maybe re-reading it twice instead of have to listen to Morrison explain where he was coming from. I don't claim to be a genius or anything when it comes to reading comprehension, but the fact I had to do independent research to wrap my head around Final Crisis was a bit of a turn off. That being said, once I "got" it, I did appreciate the arc a whole lot more for what it was.
And the Batman thing? It didn't seem OOC at all to me. What would have been worse is if Batman allowed his own personal scruples and moral code to endanger the universe as we know it. It was handled in just the right way to come off as believable as Batman-ish, imo.
Originally posted by Digi
^^ This.When I had to have FC explained to me in Morrison interviews as he picked through the hyper-obscure symbolism, rather than just by reading it, something was wrong. I'm an English major who also reads a ton of comics. The vast majority of the FC audience was less equipped to read it, including a few I spoke to personally, so I can only imagine their struggles and frustration at not understanding it. The small percentage that loved it wasn't worth mystifying even dedicated comic fans.
And for the record, I loved the whole Batman thing, and what it meant to him as a character. It was a profound moment....except I didn't experience it as a profound moment as I read the comic. I was a bit turned off by how sudden, random, and unexplained much of it was. I was only in awe of it when I read Morrison's explanation. Thus, I didn't enjoy the comic, I enjoyed a random rant about philosophy in an interview. The intention was great, the execution abysmal.
The whole thing was kinda like that.
The whole FC was difficult to understand, and thus justifies your reason for calling it terrible sounds like a generalization. It's like 50% of the event was incomprehensible, it wasn't. I'd say only about 10 -20% would actually fit into the difficult to understand category.
FC was an intelligent story, but far from excessively intellectual. It was more a matter of the angle you were looking at the story from, than the content of story itself that influenced whether you'd get a relatively obscure plot element.
Sure you needed to do some research on a few subplots and/or scenes but that's not a bad thing imv, considering that the bulk of the story was easy to get.
If it were marred with indiosyncrancies, I'd agree with this, but just about everything inside the story (Monitors excluded) had a history in DC.
EDIT: As for the Batman thing, that was covered in a Batman tie-in, and everything he did was a continuation of his previous exploits in the main FC, namely the radion bullet and Orion's assasination which he had been investigating.
Originally posted by Allankles
The whole FC was difficult to understand, and thus justifies your reason for calling it terrible sounds like a generalization. It's like 50% of the event was incomprehensible, it wasn't. I'd say only about 10 -20% would actually fit into the difficult to understand category.FC was an intelligent story, but far from excessively intellectual. It was more a matter of the angle you were looking at the story from, than the content of story itself that influenced whether you'd get a relatively obscure plot element.
Sure you needed to do some research on a few subplots and/or scenes but that's not a bad thing imv, considering that the bulk of the story was easy to get.
If it were marred with indiosyncrancies, I'd agree with this, but just about everything inside the story (Monitors excluded) had a history in DC.
EDIT: As for the Batman thing, that was covered in a Batman tie-in, and everything he did was a continuation of his previous exploits in the main FC, namely the radion bullet and Orion's assasination which he had been investigating.
Excessively intellectual and obtuse are two different things. There were aspects of the story that literally couldn't be understood upon reading FC alone. That's not skilled symbolism, that's alienating your readers.
And again, we knew all the characters because we're comics dorks. Most of the FC audience is not as versed as we. Mandrakk, for example, was just a totally inexplicable and random inclusion into the story for many, many people. Even not knowing a character, you should be able to devise his function in a story....that was often not the case.
I didn't hate FC. I just believe it was poorly executed. All the apologetics in the world won't make me change my mind on that.
FC was terrible..i didn't understand it the first time i read it..and i still don't understand it now..Revelation and Beyond were great..but the main book..i don't think i ever want to read that again..i enjoy BN cuz i understand everything without having to read it again..they don't have any sophisticated plot in there..easy to understand..just the way i like it..
Originally posted by DigiBecause you're obviously in the position to say just how big of a precentage from those who've read it liked it and how many didn't, based on some internet posts and discussion with friends, right?
The small percentage that loved it wasn't worth mystifying even dedicated comic fans.
Originally posted by Philosophía
Because you're obviously in the position to say just how big of a precentage from those who've read it liked it and how many didn't, based on some internet posts and discussion with friends, right?
Heh, ok conceded. But yes, that's been my experience, and what better cross section of comic fans than comic store patrons, casual comic fans, and internet discussion forums? A valid representative sample, I'd say, though yes a bit small. Although I do think we can more accurately estimate how many will understand the arc (or not, depending on their knowledge), which is usually tied directly into enjoyment of a story. Crossovers are normally more taxing on the casual fan who doesn't follow every character, and FC was the king of this.
The intent of FC was amazing. The execution was abysmal. I've still seen nothing to alter either of those two opinions.
Originally posted by Slaanesh
FC was terrible..i didn't understand it the first time i read it..and i still don't understand it now..Revelation and Beyond were great..but the main book..i don't think i ever want to read that again..i enjoy BN cuz i understand everything without having to read it again..they don't have any sophisticated plot in there..easy to understand..just the way i like it..
FC was terrible. Thank goodness the tie-ins weren't written in the same manner (channel surfing). Otherwise, the whole event would've been more abysmal...er.
Originally posted by Digi
The intent of FC was amazing. The execution was abysmal. I've still seen nothing to alter either of those two opinions.
👆
A DCU Crisis is huge. Having the FINAL Crisis makes this even bigger. Expectation is so high. It felt like the story suffered from this. Everyone had to be crammed into and so nobody got enough screen time. Morrison's self ascribed channel hopping approach only gave us news clips of the events and nothing concrete to latch onto. The narrative was far too disjointed
By comparison, BN suffered from a similar problem of pacing but much later. The first few issues were brilliant and issue 1 was perfect for a major comic event issue. I could not fault it. However John's lost some of the swagger of the story when it swelled to include the wider DCU. Some major plot elements were lost completely, but this was not to the same degree as FC in my opinion.
My general opinion is that BN and FC had similar pros and cons, but for me the pros of BN were much greater than FC and the cons of FC were much worse than BN.
Originally posted by Digi
The intent of FC was amazing. The execution was abysmal. I've still seen nothing to alter either of those two opinions.
I thought FC was executed very well upto the end game. Fc 1-5 was paced slowly imo. The channel surfing may not have been necessary with more issues, or maybe it's simply a story telling tool with its own merit? Gave the event a surreal vibe which actually worked?
To each his own. I liked FC's scope and ambition and I like how Morrison's characters have a high IQ.
It also had some of the best scripts you'll see in a big event crossover. I mean where else are you going to hear the guardians talk about "word weapons" and "doomsday singularities"? That's the kind of word play you can only find in a meta crisis like FC.
Damn, if anything I've been spoiled by Morrison's crisis (notable mention to Rucka as well). My expectations for big event crossovers were raised big time after FC, I'll be continually disappointed by more standard fair like BN, from now on. I think big crisis events have to be bold, FC was bold. If I'm an apologist its because it made me proud as a fan of fiction.
Final Crisis Was absolutely phenomenal. I disagree in regard to the criticism of its execution. Everything about that story was so well written, from it's unique narrative to it's mystifying climax. Frankly, I don't understand what was so confusing about the book. It was thick and heavy, more so than most comicbooks, including Blackest Night, which I also enjoyed,(But I generally enjoy most of Johns' work) granted. But that's what made it so phenomenal. The sheer complexity of the work.
However, more on topic, I thought Blackest Night was a great book. I don't think I would have appreciated it if I hadn't read every issue of Green Lantern and Green Lantern Corps beforehand since Johns' take over. But, having read those titles, it made me appreciate the arc quite a bit. I feel like DC's been knocking a lot of home runs lately in the event category, from Identity Crisis, if you consider that an event at all, Sinestro Corps War, Final Crisis, and Blackest Night. Despite the fact that I loved 52, I'm less inclined toward Infinite Crisis. All things considered, it just seems as if DC gets the large scale events, and Marvel doesn't.
Final Crisis was an average story at best. It had some decent moments and tie-in issues here and there but that's about it. Being a long time reader of Morrison I can understand why some people might appreciate it, but overall it kind of fell apart. You'd have to be a real Darkseid fan -and maybe a Superman fan to a lesser extent- to believe the story was legitimately good in my opinion. Morrison fell apart in the execution here. I should be able to pick up only the main event issues and still understand the plot, direction etc.
Blackest Night was....shit at best. It looked like it had promise but it was a huge let down. The entire color corps thing was taken too far as well. I honestly felt like I was watching an episode of power rangers at some point. Johns is past his prime. This shit was dragged out far too long, and some of the issues barely advanced the actual plot at all. You could probably compress the entire main event run into like 4 issues. His obvious boner for all thinks Silver Age didn't help either.