Originally posted by Luminatus
The PT Jedi are better than their ancient counterparts because we know the most about the former. Quantified power and abilities are always superior to speculation.Most of what we see of Jedi in things like KOTOR or TOTJ is them getting killed anyway.
This is a cop out. Unless you're saying it's among the many reasons they are better. It certainly isn't the only reason.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I've always disliked the PT Jedi being the prime. I stand by my preference that the PT Jedi and Sith should suck compared to their ancestors. Sigh.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yea believe me I'm a huge fan of the first being the greatest. The first vampire, the first lycan, the first dark Jedi, the first sith, etc. I'm all about the ancient sith being at the pinnacle of knowledge and power, but George spoke up so whatever.
Weird.
But realistic. Martial arts, for example. Previous epochs, with inferior technology, placed greater emphasis on hand-to-hand combat and the like. So I guess a handful of Spartans could take on a squad of Green Berets and win.
Oh, wait. No, they likely wouldn't.
Well, speaking of technology, then. The Persians? The Greeks? The Romans? I'm sure they could take on the United States. I mean, they're older, so naturally they wereshould be better.
Oh, wait. They weren't (even close).
Say what you want about morality and politics, but most societies are, in many ways, progressive. Societies do not intentionally dilute or destroy their own cultures for the hell of it. Even the Sith, selfish though they are, understand two things better than anything else: self-preservation and revenge. Their civil wars and plots and betrayals wouldn't realistically cost them everything in the way of knowledge and technique.
And assume for argument that they were. If every dictionary in the world was destroyed, would it be the end of the English language? No. Because there are people -- countless people -- who have a command of the information. For every record of Sith techniques that was destroyed, there was a Sith Lord out there who likely knew it and ensured the technique's survival.
In Star Wars, in real life, technology and society are progressive. Why wouldn't knowledge of the Force be?
It makes absolutely no sense. Some knowledge can be lost, absolutely. And yet it can be rediscovered. And new knowledge created with the span of time.
Logically, it's inept to assume that "lawl older = better!" Moreover, that the Force is bound by limitations; that it dilutes with time.
Sorry, but no.
Should older Force users perhaps be more skilled in its practical use? More familiar with combat applications? Sure. I could see that.
But should their knowledge be greater? LOL. No. The Jedi Archives of the prequel trilogy should be miles ahead of the resources at the disposal of the older Jedi; especially since the destruction of said knowledge is relatively rare.
But I'm whacky like that.
What about an example like the new sith versus the old sith. It doesn't look like the new sith didn't have a plethora of knowledge anywhere close to the ancient sith. In fact until Palpatine came along, it could be argued that the period fo the ancient sith consisted of the most knowledge. So while you say knowledge is progressive, I say that the idea isn't necessarily absolute. Old techniques are lost to time, but new techniques aren't necessarily created.
With all that said, I wanted the old republic jedi and sith to be better but I know they're not, which goes to show you that my personal opinion doesn't get in the way of fact
But should their knowledge be greater? LOL. No. The Jedi Archives of the prequel trilogy should be miles ahead of the resources at the disposal of the older Jedi; especially since the destruction of said knowledge is relatively rare.
This. They got to build on what was there before, how could that be worse?
Originally posted by Autokrat
Ancient Jedi1. There are a lot of Sith in the Old Republic Era.
2. Jedi and Sith generally fight each other in duels with lightsabers.
3. There are two galatic spanning wars in which thousands of Jedi and Sith fight each other. Not three hundred years later, there is another galatic spanning war that apparently lasts decades.
4. Source material mentions that many Jedi became masters at lightsaber combat out of necessity, due to saber to saber combat being the norm. With the constant threat of the Sith, this was always important.
5. From all that, we can infer that many Jedi during this era were battle hardened and ready for war.
PT Era Jedi1. 1,000 years of peace save for a few minor skirmishes
2. Sith are little more than a myth.
3. Redirecting blaster fire is a primary focus.
4. The majority of enemies the Jedi face in the CW are droids dumber than a fvucking stump. Either that or planetary militia.
5. From all that, we can infer that the Jedi Order of the PT Era is stagnant and save for the exception of the notable masters (Mace, Yoda etc) the Jedi of this era would be woefully unprepared for saber to saber combat.As you can see, the evidence is hardly just "quotes".
And here he comes…
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Three separate revivals in several centuries?
Point being? The Sith were obviously more of an apparent threat during the OT era than the PT era.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And?
I would think my point would be obvious but apparently someone can’t figure it out. Jedi and Sith fight each other using light sabers. There are lots of Jedi and Sith during these periods. Figure it out yet? The general idea is that there is going to be a lot of saber fights going on.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Wow. Two whole wars centuries apart. Clearly the same Jedi were fighting in both of them]
The point I was making, was that the Jedi of TOR are probably going to be very accustomed to lightsaber combat. Probably because the war lasted for nearly a hundred years. I was making a point that this entire era, from the start of the Great Sith War on is loaded with galaxy spanning wars.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
The 'constant' threat of the Sith? After Exar Kun, Sith are believed destroyed forever. After Revan, Sith are believed gone...see where we're going with this? This doesn't make them any better than other Jedi combat masters from the PT era
The Sith were believed gone forever? Funny you should say that… because the campaign guide brings up how it was known that scattered remnants of the Sith still existed on Korriban. The Jedi simply didn’t have the time to deal with them because they were too busy rebuilding.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yeah, three wars with firm separation between them really equate to constant and complete threat. By that logic, after the whole Ruusan thing, the PT Jedi would've been even more hardened a millennium later
It is perfectly reasonable that with the frequency of conflict between the Jedi and Sith, that lightsaber combat would be a priority. The campaign guide even says as much.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Just like the Old Republic Jedi before Exar Kun. Point? I wouldn't call the Yinchorri conflict, several Dark Jedi uprisings and the Stark Hyperspace War just 'minor skirmishes'
If you are attempting to compare a few Dark Jedi uprisings, the Yinchorri conflict and the Stark Hyperspace War to the Great Sith War and Jedi Civil War, than you are a rather skewed sense of scale. Actually worse than that, you make no sense at all.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And? This somehow impacts their combat abilities?
Well damn, perhaps the Jedi are more preoccupied with learning how to deal with more typical threats like criminals armed with blasters and other ranged weaponry. Seeing as how they haven’t seen an actual Sith in about a thousand years.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, no. Just like the Old Jedi
See my point above.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And Count Dooku's little Dark Jedi army...and General Grievous...
Just like the majority of enemies they faced in the other wars were...basically thugs
Since when did Dooku command thousands of dark side adepts comparable to the armies of Sith we see in earlier periods?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Using very suspect reasoning...Here's a thought. One is wracked by wr constantly, the other has time to actually breathe and get better
This is like saying a modern day fencer is better than one of the originals. If anything, the constant warfare would create a demand for skilled Jedi, used to war. It would thin the ranks and leave only the more capable alive. But hell, who I am to argue with your pseudo-logic?
Next time you pop out of nowhere and start spewing your typical PT rule all BS, please don’t. I can accept that GL is a dumbass and suspend my belief because I have no choice, but don't come in here and try and tell me it makes any sense.
Originally posted by Autokrat
This is like saying a modern day fencer is better than one of the originals. If anything, the constant warfare would create a demand for skilled Jedi, used to war. It would thin the ranks and leave only the more capable alive. But hell, who I am to argue with your pseudo-logic?Next time you pop out of nowhere and start spewing your typical PT rule all BS, please don’t. I can accept that GL is a dumbass and suspend my belief because I have no choice, but don't come in here and try and tell me it makes any sense.
No, the truth is that you both make valid points.
As an issue of practicality, you're right; lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat was far more frequent during the KotOR epoch. The Sith were legion and were repeatedly attempting galactic conquest. In such a kill or be killed situation, circumstances would have forced dueling to be far more common than it is during Palpatine's rise to power.
On the issue of knowledge, KotOR apologists are wrong, however. Centuries of peace would enable the Jedi and the Sith to rebuild and progress, collecting, innovating, and rediscovering lost techniques and knowledge. The idea that Lucien and DS cling to, that older equals better, is utterly baseless. Consider technology: the Empire is far greater than any regime that came before it; it would effortlessly crush the ancient Sith Empire or the KotOR-era Republic. Hell, it would have effortlessly crushed the Yuuzhan Vong, who are warriors by trade to an extent far greater than the Jedi and arguably the Sith themselves.
Why should the Force be different? For technologies that are lost, there are greater ones created. A time of peace and transition means that the Jedi and Sith would be able to delve into great research on the Force and invent new techniques.
Knowledge and study are no different. Gregor Mendel may be the father of genetics, but modern day geneticists understand the science to a far greater extent than Mendel ever did. Hell, that goes for pretty much all sciences.
Edit: And who says that the original fencer is better than the modern one? We have had far greater time to refine the art.
Originally posted by Autokrat
And here he comes…Point being? The Sith were obviously more of an apparent threat during the OT era than the PT era.
I would think my point would be obvious but apparently someone can’t figure it out. Jedi and Sith fight each other using light sabers. There are lots of Jedi and Sith during these periods. Figure it out yet? The general idea is that there is going to be a lot of saber fights going on.
The point I was making, was that the Jedi of TOR are probably going to be very accustomed to lightsaber combat.[b] Probably because the war lasted for nearly a hundred years. I was making a point that this entire era, from the start of the Great Sith War on is loaded with galaxy spanning wars.
The Sith were believed gone forever? Funny you should say that… because the campaign guide brings up how it was known that scattered remnants of the Sith still existed on Korriban. The Jedi simply didn’t have the time to deal with them because they were too busy rebuilding.
It is perfectly reasonable that with the frequency of conflict between the Jedi and Sith, that lightsaber combat would be a priority. The campaign guide even says as much.
If you are attempting to compare a few Dark Jedi uprisings, the Yinchorri conflict and the Stark Hyperspace War to the Great Sith War and Jedi Civil War, than you are a rather skewed sense of scale. Actually worse than that, you make no sense at all.
Well damn, perhaps the Jedi are more preoccupied with learning how to deal with more typical threats like criminals armed with blasters and other ranged weaponry. Seeing as how they haven’t seen an actual Sith in about a thousand years.
Since when did Dooku command thousands of dark side adepts comparable to the armies of Sith we see in earlier periods?
This is like saying a modern day fencer is better than one of the originals.
If anything, the constant warfare would create a demand for skilled Jedi, used to war. It would thin the ranks and leave only the more capable alive. But hell, who I am to argue with your pseudo-logic?
Next time you pop out of nowhere and start spewing your typical PT rule all BS, please don’t. I can accept that GL is a dumbass and suspend my belief because I have no choice, but don't come in here and try and tell me it makes any sense. [/B]
Originally posted by GideonO........kay...
Weird.But realistic. Martial arts, for example. Previous epochs, with inferior technology, placed greater emphasis on hand-to-hand combat and the like. So I guess a handful of Spartans could take on a squad of Green Berets and win.
Oh, wait. No, they likely wouldn't.
Well, speaking of technology, then. The Persians? The Greeks? The Romans? I'm sure they could take on the United States. I mean, they're older, so naturally they
wereshould be better.Oh, wait. They weren't (even close).
Say what you want about morality and politics, but most societies are, in many ways, progressive. Societies do not intentionally dilute or destroy their own cultures for the hell of it. Even the Sith, selfish though they are, understand two things better than anything else: self-preservation and revenge. Their civil wars and plots and betrayals wouldn't realistically cost them everything in the way of knowledge and technique.
And assume for argument that they were. If every dictionary in the world was destroyed, would it be the end of the English language? No. Because there are people -- countless people -- who have a command of the information. For every record of Sith techniques that was destroyed, there was a Sith Lord out there who likely knew it and ensured the technique's survival.
In Star Wars, in real life, technology and society are progressive. Why wouldn't knowledge of the Force be?
It makes absolutely no sense. Some knowledge can be lost, absolutely. And yet it can be rediscovered. And new knowledge created with the span of time.
Logically, it's inept to assume that "lawl older = better!" Moreover, that the Force is bound by limitations; that it dilutes with time.
Sorry, but no.
Should older Force users perhaps be more skilled in its practical use? More familiar with combat applications? Sure. I could see that.
But should their knowledge be greater? LOL. No. The Jedi Archives of the prequel trilogy should be miles ahead of the resources at the disposal of the older Jedi; especially since the destruction of said knowledge is relatively rare.
But I'm whacky like that.
I've stated my reasons for my stance in a thread of yours before. And seeing as how the Force is neither a society nor real...
The Prophecy involving bringing balance back fits in with my idea that doing so is restoring the potency and accessibility of the Force itself to sentient manipulators. The existence of the Sith as an organized and devout order of evildoers controlling the Force for their own selfish purposes caused the Force to "withdraw" from beings in general. Kind of like Zonama Sekot and the Yuuzhan Vong. With Palpatine's death and the Sith lineage destroyed, the Force was "rebalanced" and started becoming accessible once again in greater magnitude, hence the seemingly sudden upsurge in power for the likes of the NJO.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
What about an example like the new sith versus the old sith. It doesn't look like the new sith didn't have a plethora of knowledge anywhere close to the ancient sith. In fact until Palpatine came along, it could be argued that the period fo the ancient sith consisted of the most knowledge. So while you say knowledge is progressive, I say that the idea isn't necessarily absolute. Old techniques are lost to time, but new techniques aren't necessarily created.With all that said, I wanted the old republic jedi and sith to be better but I know they're not, which goes to show you that my personal opinion doesn't get in the way of fact