Can we survive Global Capitalism?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
What is the evidence for lack of private property? Or rather what is the evidence for preponderance of public property?

Private property is a relationship among people in which the owner of a thing can exclude others from using or possesing said thing - i am referring specifically to natural resources or means of production here.

Because hunter-gatherer societies and many agricultural and or pastoral societies did not practice this exclusive access, they cannot be said to have private property. Everybody uses the resources arround them without imposing restrictions on the beahavior of others to do so. The products of the hunt and gathering - a group effort - were also distributed equally. Little to no surplus lead to little to no acumulation and the products of group enedeavors were largelly distributed among all members of the group equally. Intelectual property was simply inconceiveble.

Common areas for farming were also frequent in socieites with varying levels of hierearchy from command economies such as ancient egypt (that had a class devide and was not egalitarian) to kibutz like egalitarian communes.

If you want some academic sources on hunter gathere economy, I can recomend:

Limited Wants, Unlimited Means: A reader on Hunter-Gatherer Economics and the Environment. John Gowdy

Egalitarianism and Machiavellian Intelligence in Human Evolution Mellars & Gibson.

Subsistence, Ecology and Food production. A lecture by Thomas M. Kiefer

Woman the Gatherer and Man the Hunter are also two books on the subject.

The bibliography on the subject extends far further, but I'm not a specialist on it. If you're interested, just research origins of private property. There's also a lot of political and philosphical literature dealing with it of course.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
It becomes evident that you have not read Das Kapital and thus raise issues such as ''every communist attempt turns into dictatorship''.
I think it is thus pointless discussing communism.
I have clearly stated that Marx clearly explains that system CANNOT be imposed.
Stalin was well aware of this, and had done numerous economic things to artificially induce transition into communism, failing so obviously.

For the rest, we're just going in circles. I have clearly answered the question you have posed.
Bardock has made a good point as to why I said 'normal', but he seems to have disappeared now.
Perhaps I could have used better choice of words.

I failed to recognize the one truth then?

if only governments could be more true to X and not corrupt by [them]! that is the real way for mankind!

Is Social Democracy and/or Democratic Socialism so much to ask for?

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Is Social Democracy and/or Democratic Socialism so much to ask for?

Social Democracy in practice is also not just one thing, they can lean closer to capitalism or closer to socialism. But yeah, a mild social democracy is definitely a nicer thing than this corrupt weirdness the US employs, huge government spending, little social security...you have the worst of both worlds.

Benevolent Capitalism: oxymoron?

Probably not.

Originally posted by coberst

Can we survive Global Capitalism?

There are negative feedback control systems such as a furnace/thermostat or our own bodies. There are positive feedback control systems such as an ordinary fire or our capitalistic economic system.

In a fire the higher the temperature the faster the fuel is burned; the faster the fuel burns the higher goes the temperature. In a business enterprise it is common practice to put a percentage of profit into advertising. More advertising creates greater sales, which mean higher profit.

A negative feedback system seeks out equilibrium; a positive feedback system has no equilibrium and is ever accelerating.

If we have a positive feedback system, such as capitalism being now abetted by Globalism, we face the horrendous situation that the greater the progress the faster the spiral of destruction when considering that the world and humans are negative feedback systems.

If we choose to continue with our present global/capitalistic program we must find a way to dampen the positive feedback system.

Biologists, and probably other sciences, inform us that human conceit, i.e. human ego, distorts our ability to comprehend our self. Egocentricities motivate us into irrational behavior thereby imperiling our survival; the human animal is arrogant and dangerous. Mark Twain was told that “man is the noblest work of God” to which he replied “Now, who found that out?”

Bernard James, author of “The Death of Progress” argues that perhaps a new moral order might be the solution to acquiring the means to avoid self-extinction. He argues that creation is a function of life. It is inventive acts that govern the evolution and survival requirements of human and ecosystems.

I suggest that we must find a new formula for the encouragement of creativity directed at this monumental problem. This is a problem that demands quick action and it seems to me that we cannot wait several generations for this to be accomplished. Today’s adults must recognize the problem and must energetically seek a solution. I think that an invigorated self-actualization through self-learning by adults is required. I am not talking about more schooling. Schooling has left us learning-handicapped already. This effort must be self-learning. Adults must begin a concentrated effort toward developing an intellectual life far beyond that which now exists.

Too late!

Markets around the world are in dire strain, and countries are utterly bankrupt - the end result of manipulating open markets to serve those in power while subsidizing/liquidizing endless debt. This is nothing new, and this nonsense has absolutely nothing to do with Capitalism - open markets and fiscal responsibility.

To the contrary, it is reserve banks around the world that have created jaw-dropping epidemics of this proportion (hand-in-hand with politicians that promise the world).

Did you know that the total unfunded liability obligations of the US exceeds 110 trillions dollars?! Umm... that ain't Capitalism pal, ha ha!

Just in case you've been living on the moon the past couple of decades, that's more than the GDPs of countries around the world C-O-M-B-I-N-E-D!

All you can do at this point, is prepare for a gloomy future. The damage is already done. Yes, people need to become educated, but it's too late to change the course of history. People need to buckle up, and prepare for the ride ahead.

US Dept Clock

its amazing how fast "drank-the-kool-aide" conservatives turned on corporations and the power structure...

I mean, cool, I'm more down with this than the previous 20 years, but like, WOW!

Inimalist-

The problem is not with the Corporations; the problem resides in the Federal Government's failure to uphold the Law. The US is now an Oligarchy - run by banking cartels and foreign powers. And... we did it to ourselves!

The American Form of Government

ya, and people on the radical left have been saying that since the late 80s...

its like you just got the message...

Inimalist, let's have a conversation, not a pissing contest, ha ha! If you disagree with me on certain terms or entirely, let it be known. Let us discuss our differences - we can learn from one another.

lol, you can piss all you want, its a funny observation, to me at least, that the rabid anti-corporatism that I loved when I was first getting into politics has now become the bread and butter of people so long against these ideas.

That anyone who ever supported the war in Iraq would complain about government spending makes my head do weird twists... and it happened overnight... it must be the mix of Obama in office and the economy...

Inimalist-

Corporatism and Capitalism are entirely different things, you (hopefully) know that. Corporatism is nothing more than a buddy system - hence, all the idiotic bail outs we've seen over the past 4 years or so. It's corruption - capitalism usurped by banking cartels and special interest groups. Hey, I have an idea, let us dump a bunch of tax payer's money into failing companies and wish for the best (because I have a friend in high places). Why not? If the FED can print billions of dollars (over top of tax receipts) out of thin air and feed it to failing companies - further inflating the US dollar - they should be able to compete with successful companies, yes? The answer is no! I really don't understand what your getting at. And by the way... our National Defense budget makes up about 5% of our Nation's GDP. Honestly, what is your stance? If I can respond tonight, I will. Otherwise, I'll touch base tomorrow. Good grief.

I haven't made any points for you to argue against really.

I've simply stated that I think its funny to see such a distinct change in rhetoric so quickly.

I guess you could report me for trolling, but I've been generally on topic and you continue to pursue the issue.

And all I'm trying to say is this: I've always felt this way about the country. It's broken. It doesn't take all day to recognize the sunshine. Anyway... have a good one - gotta get up early in the morning. Take care.

Check out Immanuel Wallerstein's World-Systems-Theory. It addresses most of these questions - though by no means do I believe it is a comprehensive (or even the best) theory - yet, I think, you will find the theory tries to address most of the questions raised in this debate.

A synopsis:

Derived from the work of Karl Marx and made into a developed set of ideas by Immanuel Wallerstein, who shows that capitalism is not just an economic system bounded by national borders highlighting class inequality. Rather, capitalism must also be seen as involving relationships among nations and these relationships too are based on inequality. Those nations which developed capitalistic economies early then went on to dominate other nations through colonization or simply through linking the economies of the nations in ways that favored the more dominant nation and placed the others into a condition of dependency on the dominant nation. This state of dependency tended to hamper the development of the other economies.

Another synopsis:

The world-systems theory stresses that world-systems (and not nation states) should be the basic unit of social analysis. World-system refers to the international division of labor, which divides the world into core countries, semi-periphery countries and the periphery countries. Core countries focus on higher skill, capital-intensive production, and the rest of the world focuses on low-skill, labor-intensive production and extraction of raw materials. This constantly reinforces the dominance of the core countries. Nonetheless, the system is dynamic, and individual states can gain or lose the core (semi-periphery, periphery) status over time. For a time, some countries become the world hegemon; throughout last few centuries, this status has passed from the Netherlands, to the United Kingdom and most recently, the United States.

The most well-known version of the world-system approach has been developed by Immanuel Wallerstein in 1970s and 1980s. Wallerstein traces the rise of the world system to 15th century, when European feudal economy suffered a crisis and was transformed into a capitalist one. Europe (the West) utilized its advantages and gained control over most of the world economy, presiding over the development and spread of industrialization and capitalism economy, indirectly resulting in unequal development

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Is Social Democracy and/or Democratic Socialism so much to ask for?

Implying social democracy is something special. I live in Norway, i should know a thing or two about it.

I NEED TO PAY OVER 17 DOLLARS FOR A PACK OF SMOKES!!!

Originally posted by amnesia
Implying social democracy is something special. I live in Norway, i should know a thing or two about it.

I NEED TO PAY OVER 17 DOLLARS FOR A PACK OF SMOKES!!!

Sucks to be you! 😛

Hee hee - sorry, couldn't resist. I was in Norway a couple of years ago, and I heartily agree - 80 kronor for a beer and 320 kronor for a pizza nearly made me cry - especially as I earn South African rand! I think at the time I was there, Oslo was said to be the most expensive city in the world...

Originally posted by Dreampanther
Sucks to be you! 😛

Hee hee - sorry, couldn't resist. I was in Norway a couple of years ago, and I heartily agree - 80 kronor for a beer and 320 kronor for a pizza nearly made me cry - especially as I earn South African rand! I think at the time I was there, Oslo was said to be the most expensive city in the world...

Junk food is very expensive in Norway. Healthy food is cheap. It's the reason I'm pretty fit though.

Originally posted by ushomefree
Too late!

Markets around the world are in dire strain, and countries are utterly bankrupt - the end result of manipulating open markets to serve those in power while subsidizing/liquidizing endless debt. This is nothing new, and this nonsense has absolutely nothing to do with Capitalism - open markets and fiscal responsibility.

To the contrary, it is reserve banks around the world that have created jaw-dropping epidemics of this proportion (hand-in-hand with politicians that promise the world).

Did you know that the total unfunded liability obligations of the US exceeds 110 trillions dollars?! Umm... that ain't Capitalism pal, ha ha!

Just in case you've been living on the moon the past couple of decades, that's more than the GDPs of countries around the world C-O-M-B-I-N-E-D!

All you can do at this point, is prepare for a gloomy future. The damage is already done. Yes, people need to become educated, but it's too late to change the course of history. People need to buckle up, and prepare for the ride ahead.

US Dept Clock

This is very much so capitalism, the only kind that has ever existed. The State has always protected and conluded with capitalists.

Remember how people spoke of 'real socialism' to refer to the soviet union and preserve the dream of a righteous proletariat dicatorship that wasn't all ****ed up? Same deal here. The 'capitalism' you speak of is just wishfull thinking and has never existed.