Ugh, this was bothering me (not in a personal way, pop).
Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
WE don't put sidious on top CANON places him on top.
Actually, canon doesn't put anyone "on top", it's all in this forum's mentality. I remember when someone from this forum asked Leland Chee on the official site message boards who was more powerful: Ragnos or Sidious (in hopes to end a raging debate that used to go on here). His answer was that there are no "established power charts" and that there is no canon list of "who's better than who", stating -at any point- one character could become more powerful than another if an author chose.
So, really, it is "we", and by "we", I mean, you. And by "you", I mean some members of this forum. Did I do that right?
Originally posted by Advent
Actually, canon doesn't put anyone "on top", it's all in this forum's mentality.
“Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history. (The New Essential Chronology, pg 84)"
“The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course [that the Rebel Alliance would be troublesome]; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith who had ever existed. (Death Star, pg 76)"
“Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known. (Vader: the Ultimate Guide, page 19)"
Quotes > your opinion. Sorry but its like that, you can't just discredit quotes to firm your argument and thats not how things work here, if the writer or author states something then it is that way, like quigon being legendary.
Revan had plenty of quotes but little feats actually seen yet most of us consider him a strong force user and an excellent combatant.
What advent say does make sense about the author choosing one character to be more powerful than an already powerful character.
Hell even if lucas pleased he could make vader or even jar jar more powerful than any force user, if karen traviss wanted to make caedus more powerful than sidious, she could very well do so.
If Kevin J anderson wanted exar kun to be the ultimate force user, he could very well do so.
And ares, i advice you just don't argue with advent, she can tear you a new a$$h0l3 after breaking down your arguments.
But yes, sidious is number one sith due to quotes and feats, but there are other characters potentiall stronger in a sense that authors can simply make up a character more powerfil or overpower a single character(think of that idiot galen marek).
Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Quotes > your opinion. Sorry but its like that, you can't just discredit quotes to firm your argument and thats not how things work here, if the writer or author states something then it is that way, like quigon being legendary.Revan had plenty of quotes but little feats actually seen yet most of us consider him a strong force user and an excellent combatant.
What advent say does make sense about the author choosing one character to be more powerful than an already powerful character.
Hell even if lucas pleased he could make vader or even jar jar more powerful than any force user, if karen traviss wanted to make caedus more powerful than sidious, she could very well do so.
If Kevin J anderson wanted exar kun to be the ultimate force user, he could very well do so.
And ares, i advice you just don't argue with advent, she can tear you a new a$$h0l3 after breaking down your arguments.
But yes, sidious is number one sith due to quotes and feats, but there are other characters potentiall stronger in a sense that authors can simply make up a character more powerfil or overpower a single character(think of that idiot galen marek).
if lucas came out and said that jett zukassa was the most talented duelist in the order id say that he was full of shit and id denounce the quote as so. if that means im breaking kmc rules then so be it. id rather leave the forum then lower my intelligence to such a level that i ignore basic logic that even a small child can understand.
Originally posted by Ms.MarvelDon't be dense, thats how canon works. If a higher authority says it is, it simply is regardless of how silly it may be.
if lucas came out and said that jett zukassa was the most talented duelist in the order id say that he was full of shit and id denounce the quote as so. if that means im breaking kmc rules then so be it. id rather leave the forum then lower my intelligence to such a level that i ignore basic logic that even a small child can understand.
Nobody can denounce lucas statements, you can claim it makes no sense, is full of shit or doesn't make sense but you can't change the fact that what he say is canon "fact".
Look at marvels authors, they are even worse than SW authors in a sense that they can make the not so strongest character duke it out with cosmic beings.
Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Don't be dense, thats how canon works.If a higher authority says it is, it simply is regardless of how silly it may be.
Nobody can denounce lucas statements, you can claim it makes no sense, is full of shit or doesn't make sense but you can't change the fact that what he say is canon "fact".
thats how canon works here. i personally dont have to believe something just because he says it. objectively speaking whatever lucas or his ilk says goes. but from my own observations that isnt always true. what they say and what the characters do can at times contradict one another. so i dont feel that i personally am obligated to believe something just because they say it.
Look at marvels authors, they are even worse than SW authors in a sense that they can make the not so strongest character duke it out with cosmic beings.
exactly. if we went just by what marvel says then we can say that spiderman is indeed > firelord. or that captain america would beat spiderman the majority of the time they fought. if you take into consideration what the two have consistently done that isnt the case.
Originally posted by ares834
I disagree... And so does canon.
Chris Cerasi, who is an editor for LucasBooks, doesn't agree with you:
"The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play. LucasBooks works diligently to keep the continuing Star Wars expanded universe cohesive and uniform, but stylistically, there is always room for variation. Not all artists draw Luke Skywalker the same way. Not all writers define the character in the same fashion. The particular attributes of individual media also come into play. A comic book interpretation of an event will likely have less dialogue or different pacing than a novel version. A video game has to take an interactive approach that favors gameplay. So too must card and roleplaying games ascribe certain characteristics to characters and events in order to make them playable.
And,
The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them. Like the great Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi said, 'many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view.'
So simply, the authors are making their interpretation of the character, meaning statements like "the most powerful ever" are totally fair game to be questioned. Think about it. I don't have a problem with people being called the best of the era in EU, that makes more sense than a definitive "ever", past, present and future.
Leland Chee doesn't agree with you:
Originally posted by Advent
I remember when someone from this forum asked Leland Chee on the official site message boards who was more powerful: Ragnos or Sidious (in hopes to end a raging debate that used to go on here). His answer was that there are no "established power charts" and that there is no canon list of "who's better than who", stating -at any point- one character could become more powerful than another if an author chose.
Ushgarak, the law of the forum, doesn't agree with you either (link):
Final word- it's all interpretation, which is ultimately all opinion. There is no universal unambiguous soruce of relative power levels, nor is such a thing desirable as it would be a very petty creation.
And most importantly, I don't agree with you because you're spouting off hyperbole and ambiguous quotes to support your disagreement. Who's the most powerful man in America? You could argue the president, but that doesn't make him capable of tearing down buildings with his bare hands. Even one of your own quotes support the idea that "powerful" can be taken in the sense of political influence, wealth, or knowledge.
“Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history. (The New Essential Chronology, pg 84)"
Nice job knowing that the narrator of the NEC is Voren Na'al, a fictional character. The book is written from his perspective (meaning in-character fallibility), and seeing that some young historian from the NJO era wouldn't be capable of measuring the power of the Sith Lords of old, he's either delusion, exaggerating or considering political influence, wealth, and knowledge when using the word "powerful".
“The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course [that the Rebel Alliance would be troublesome]; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith who had ever existed. (Death Star, pg 76)"
I'm not sure what perspective Death Star is written from, but it's likely the case of being third-person limited narration rather than a completely omniscient source. Either way, it's bunk until you prove the writing style or that there are "established power charts" contrary to Leland Chee's statement. May I remind you that Chee is the guy who actually works in handling and making decisions on canon for LFL.
Here is the quote I was referring to above,
“Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known. (Vader: the Ultimate Guide, page 19)"
"Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire."
The 'power' that Sidious had was defined by Vader as being political influence, more specifically, the head of a galactic government. We know this is the case since he isn't going to gain extraordinary Force power by just killing someone.
Originally posted by Ms.MarvelSorry but thats how canon works for SW anywhere, hell go read wikipedia or wookiepedia for a better defination of canon.
thats how canon works here.
Originally posted by Ms.MarvelSo if thats the case then anakin isn't the chosen one, then anakin wouldn't have been the most powerful force user had he not sustained any of his injuries because there is absolutely nothing to prove it other than the words of lucas himself. Lucas words are law hun, just deal with it seriously.
i personally dont have to believe something just because he says it. objectively speaking whatever lucas or his ilk says goes. but from my own observations that isnt always true. what they say and what the characters do can at times contradict one another. so i dont feel that i personally am obligated to believe something just because they say it.
If you can't accept it you are very welcomed to leave this forum or section and quit debating about star wars entirely.
What the authors says is fact, cold hard fact weather it makes sense or not it is still fact, if you can't accept that then don't bother arguing with anybody in this forum.
The writers decide what happens in the SWU or whos better than who, you do not.
I apologise if you think im being a jackass but it is very annoying that
defy canon and choose to blatantly ignore it when you are wrong or when the autors disagree with you.
Originally posted by Ms.MarvelI repeat again, if the authors wished, they could even make someone like wolverine stand up and defeat even the white phoenix of the crown. The fact is they have the power to do these things weather it makes sense or not.
exactly. if we went just by what marvel says then we can say that spiderman is indeed > firelord. or that captain america would beat spiderman the majority of the time they fought. if you take into consideration what the two have consistently done that isnt the case.
Originally posted by Wolverine2179
So if thats the case then anakin isn't the chosen one, then anakin wouldn't have been the most powerful force user had he not sustained any of his injuries because there is absolutely [b]nothing to prove it other than the words of lucas himself. Lucas words are law hun, just deal with it seriously.[/b]
The characters in the movies themselves admit that Anakin is the Chosen One and the capable of becoming the most powerful openly.
What the authors says is fact, cold hard fact weather it makes sense or not it is still fact, if you can't accept that then don't bother arguing with anybody in this forum.
No. Interpretation of a character isn't fact, it's subjectivity.
The writers decide what happens in the SWU or whos better than who, you do not.
Leland Chee decided that there was no "power charts" on who can beat who.
Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Maybe i do, best to concede it then. But could you substantiate it for me?
Read my post to ares.