Originally posted by Darth Martin
Team 2.Maul can drag Kenobi out for a long fight. Tyranus can defeat Anakin with difficulty.
I don't know how Maul would fare against Grevious, but Obi-Wan was able to defeat him, I don't know if it would be a long fight. And, if I'm mistaken, Anakin decapitated Dooku's old wrinkly a$$, with some difficulties.
Dooku vs. Kenobi would result in dead Kenobi. The coinciding Anakin vs. Maul would be fun to watch. Anakin's got Maul beat in raw Force reserves, but with Maul's highly aggressive Juyo and double blade working against Anakin's Shien, even Anakin is gonna be taxed. But by then, Dooku will be on his way over to double-team him, and the Sith win.
Dooku vs. Anakin would result in a longer fight than with Kenobi, but PIS and subjectivity aside, there's no "teh z0ne" and Dun Moch. Anakin is likely to lose. Meanwhile, Kenobi is fairing much better against Maul, who seems to prefer a straight physical fight than a saber duel with accompanying Force attacks, a la The Count. Kenobi's Soresu will do a good job at keeping Maul at bay, but I just can't see Kenobi being able to get a strike through Maul's blades. Give Maul the advantage of youth and vaster reserves of stamina, and I can see Kenobi biting the dust eventually.
Either way, the Sith are the favourites to win.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Dooku vs. Kenobi would result in dead Kenobi. The coinciding Anakin vs. Maul would be fun to watch. Anakin's got Maul beat in raw Force reserves, but with Maul's highly aggressive Juyo and double blade working against Anakin's Shien, even Anakin is gonna be taxed. But by then, Dooku will be on his way over to double-team him, and the Sith win.
Dooku vs. Anakin would result in a longer fight than with Kenobi, but PIS and subjectivity aside, there's no "teh z0ne" and Dun Moch. Anakin is likely to lose.
I strongly disagree. Remember their encounters in the Clone wars Cartoons? Is it two now? The movie was one, where Anakin fared very well against Dooku, And then one other duel where anakin defeated dooku, AND ventress wasn't it? I haven't seen it myself, saw it referenced by Gideon in the (What is happening to our villians thread)
and dooku was forced to escape. based on the 3 encounters after Anakin became a Jedi knight, i would give the edge to Anakin. A difficult fight to be sure, but Dooku has shown no ability to best anakin after the events of Episode 2.
Meanwhile, Kenobi is fairing much better against Maul, who seems to prefer a straight physical fight than a saber duel with accompanying Force attacks, a la The Count. Kenobi's Soresu will do a good job at keeping Maul at bay, but I just can't see Kenobi being able to get a strike through Maul's blades. Give Maul the advantage of youth and vaster reserves of stamina, and I can see Kenobi biting the dust eventually.
The same Kenobi that beat Grievous? The same Kenobi that beat anakin? (i can post quotes on how lopsided BOTH of those victories were if you want me too)
The problem with constantly attacking like Maul does, each attack is an opportunity for a good defender (Kenobi is quoted as "the Master" of the defensive style) to cut something off. (as evidenced in his fight with Grievous.
I can't see Maul lasting longer than Grievous did, and that wasn't long.
So, IMO if the jedi can get these matchups they win, if not, they lose.
Either way, the Sith are the favourites to win. [/B][/QUOTE]
Originally posted by truejediThat was the point of Gideon's thread. Jedi like Ahsoka were actually competing with these top tier bad guys. And Anakin defeating Dooku (I don't know if it actually happened, I hate that show) throws the whole "My powers have doubled since the last time we met, Count" out of whack. REALLY out of whack. Going by the movie and the novelization, Dooku manhandled Kenobi and was sporting an edge over Anakin until he started using Don Much. I'm saying it right now, f*ck that show. F*ck it and everyone who came up with, T-canon be damned. G-canon kicks it and Lucas' ass. Sonsuvb*tches.
I strongly disagree. Remember their encounters in the Clone wars Cartoons? Is it two now? The movie was one, where Anakin fared very well against Dooku, And then one other duel where anakin defeated dooku, AND ventress wasn't it? I haven't seen it myself, saw it referenced by Gideon in the (What is happening to our villians thread)
and dooku was forced to escape. based on the 3 encounters after Anakin became a Jedi knight, i would give the edge to Anakin. A difficult fight to be sure, but Dooku has shown no ability to best anakin after the events of Episode 2.
Originally posted by truejediDon't forget, Kenobi's victories weren't a result of his superior skill/power, it was due to him shooting Grievous and taking advantage of Vader's idiocy. The reason I gave Maul such an advantage is that, unlike Grievous, Maul is blessed with precognition and Force-sensitivity. Kenobi Force-raping Grievous like he did in the hangar isn't going to be happening to Maul unless Maul makes a dumb mistake. Without PIS a la each of Kenobi's big wins in the films, he doesn't have that great of a chance against Maul.
The same Kenobi that beat Grievous? The same Kenobi that beat anakin? (i can post quotes on how lopsided BOTH of those victories were if you want me too)
The problem with constantly attacking like Maul does, each attack is an opportunity for a good defender (Kenobi is quoted as "the Master" of the defensive style) to cut something off. (as evidenced in his fight with Grievous.I can't see Maul lasting longer than Grievous did, and that wasn't long.
So, IMO if the jedi can get these matchups they win, if not, they lose.
Either way, the Sith are the favourites to win.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
[B] I'm saying it right now, f*ck that show. F*ck it and everyone who came up with, T-canon be damned. G-canon kicks it and Lucas' ass. Sonsuvb*tches.
Don't forget, Kenobi's victories weren't a result of his superior skill/power, it was due to him shooting Grievous
Only because he utterly OWNED him with sabers first. He shot him in hand to hand combat. Combat in which intially GRIEVOUS had a weapon, and Kenobi did not.
and taking advantage of Vader's idiocy.
Maybe so, but the novelization shows that Obi-wan controlled the entire duel between Anakin and Kenobi. There is nothing in the movie that doesn't fit within the framework of the novel's account, and by that account, Anakin would lose 9 out of 10 to Kenobi.
The reason I gave Maul such an advantage is that, unlike Grievous, Maul is blessed with precognition and Force-sensitivity.
Kenobi Force-raping Grievous like he did in the hangar
Without PIS a la each of Kenobi's big wins in the films, he doesn't have that great of a chance against Maul.
I don't know what you are talking about in ROTS. The novelization makes it clear that he dominated both fights he won.
Originally posted by truejediWell, G-canon over T-canon. Dooku>Light Side Anakin.
well, if you do that, then yes, Dooku would be the favorite. As much as i hate the cartoons and comics both (and i've stated that opinion many times) I think we still must include the content in a canon argument.
Originally posted by truejediI misspoke. Kenobi defeated Grievous in sabers, and got the kill shot through unorthodox means.
Only because he utterly OWNED him with sabers first. He shot him in hand to hand combat. Combat in which intially GRIEVOUS had a weapon, and Kenobi did not.
Originally posted by truejediYou may be right about that, I haven't read the novel in a while. I can't quote it or anything else, but the others have here that said that Vader was gaining strength and momentum the longer the fight drew on. Eventually he was going to overwhelm Kenobi.
Maybe so, but the novelization shows that Obi-wan controlled the entire duel between Anakin and Kenobi. There is nothing in the movie that doesn't fit within the framework of the novel's account, and by that account, Anakin would lose 9 out of 10 to Kenobi.
Originally posted by truejediNo, I meant using that Force-push to send Grievous flying. Maul has the ability to detect and counter that, unlike the non-Force-sensitive grievous.
Say what? I remember him cutting Grievous's arms off 1 by 1 with his lightsaber. If you mean the hand-to-hand fight, Kenobi was fighting a GUY MADE OUT OF METAL!!! I don't see using the force to call a blaster cheating there.
Originally posted by truejediSee above.
I don't know what you are talking about in ROTS. The novelization makes it clear that he dominated both fights he won.
If I am wrong about the RotS fight, it still doesn't cover for Maul. Anakin was someone whose fighting style he was intimately knowledgeable of, unlike his relationship with Maul. Maul has the advantage here of mastery of Juyo with a doubleblade, mastery of the martial arts, a powerful body and command of the Force, and sheer determination and clear-headed rage--unlike the distraught Vader. I'm not saying Maul's guaranteed victory everlasting, but he's got something on Kenobi. And this being a duo match, Maul can and will last for a time against Kenobi whether he's doomed to win or lose, time enough for Light Sided Anakin to fall to Dooku.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Well, G-canon over T-canon. Dooku>Light Side Anakin.
You are talking about PADAWAN anakin. Not Jedi Knight anakin. Jedi Knight Anakin > Dooku according to G-Canon.
Be fair there.
T-Canon is all we have of light-side, Jedi Knight anakin. If you throw it out, the ROTS fight is inconclusive at best, not advantage Dooku.
You may be right about that, I haven't read the novel in a while. I can't quote it or anything else, but the others have here that said that Vader was gaining strength and momentum the longer the fight drew on. Eventually he was going to overwhelm Kenobi.
No, I meant using that Force-push to send Grievous flying. Maul has the ability to detect and counter that, unlike the non-Force-sensitive grievous.
True, but Grievous was already running. The shove hardly won the fight for him.
Had to go back 15+ pages:
Obi-wan had been on the planet for something like 60 seconds. He didn't know where the corridor was retreating down lead, but he didn't have to retreat down that corridor either, he chose to. Retreating is what he did. (he beat Grievous that way) lost to maul, and dooku twice when he went on the offensive. (and anakin didn't know where that corridor lead, or even what the control he sliced with his lightsaber did, there was no time for that, he had barely finished killing the Seperatists, and making his report to Sidious when Padme arrived)
Anakin obviously had some measure of control while choking Obi-wan (which by the way, is that seen on film, or just the novelization?) But for the majority of it, if you watch, Anakin's effort in the fight is to kill Obi-Wan, In fact, anakin started the attack. Obi-wan successfully defends blow after blow, and retreats, looking for an opening. That's how he fights grievous onscreen.And to your final point, At the exact same time that Obi got pushed into a control panel, Anakin got thrown across the room. There is no way you can give Anakin the advantage in that exchange.
Here is the quote from ROTS by stover: Pg 397: "In every exchange, Obi-Wan gave ground. It was his way. And he knew that to strike Anakin down would burn his own heart to ash."
On Page 398, anakin does slam obi-wan into a wall, then moves forward to kill him. immediately. Obi-Wan, by his own abilities, is able to escape anakin, disarm him, and has a chance that both Obi-Wan AND anakin acknowledge would have killed anakin.
"You hesitate, ANakin said, "THe flaw of compassion-- It's not compassion, Obi-Wan said sadly, "It's reverence for life. Even yours. It's respect for the man you were. He sighed. It's regret for the man you should have been."
And on how they got outside: Page 401: "....He slid Anakin's following thrust through the wall on the opposite side, guiding both blades again up and over his head in a circular sweep so that he could use the power of Anakin's next chop to drive himself backward through the wall, outside into the smoke and the falling cinders. Anakin followed, constantly attacking; Obi-Wan again gave ground, retreating along a narrow balcony high above the the black-sand shoreline of a lake of fire. Mustafar hummed with death behind his back, only a moment away, somewhere out there among the rivers of molten rock. OBI-WAN LET ANAKIN DRIVE HIM TOWARD IT. IT WAS A PLACE, HE DECIDED, THEY SHOULD REACH TOGETHER."
I hope that at least clears up why i feel about the fight as i do.
here is the actual thread:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=480991&pagenumber=2
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And Anakin defeating Dooku (I don't know if it actually happened, I hate that show) throws the whole "My powers have doubled since the last time we met, Count" out of whack. REALLY out of whack.
Originally posted by truejediHuh... the duel on the Invisible Hand was Knight Anakin. Light Sided, Jedi Knight Anakin being pushed back by Dooku.
You are talking about PADAWAN anakin. Not Jedi Knight anakin. Jedi Knight Anakin > Dooku according to G-Canon.
Originally posted by truejediBut G>T.
T-Canon is all we have of light-side, Jedi Knight anakin. If you throw it out, the ROTS fight is inconclusive at best, not advantage Dooku.
Originally posted by truejediGrievous was already running, what? He pushed him in the midst of their saber lock.
True, but Grievous was already running. The shove hardly won the fight for him.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Huh... the duel on the Invisible Hand was Knight Anakin. Light Sided, Jedi Knight Anakin being pushed back by Dooku.
Anakin was toying with Dooku. That is made obvious in the novelization. He had his number all along. From page 70, 6th paragraph, the Jedi dominated Dooku.
Furthermore, Even lightside anakin frequently used anger to make him stronger. I'm not sure of a single duel where he didn't use his anger. So lightsided Anakin skywalker dominated Dooku.
Pg. 78, he completely gives into his anger, and then dispatches Dooku with ease, but he was still dominating him before he completely gave in.
But G>T.
see above. All the evidence we have suggests ROTS Anakin> ROTS Dooku. G agrees with T.
Grievous was already running, what? He pushed him in the midst of their saber lock.
truejediYou do realize that the overwhelming majority of what transpires in the novel is contradicted in its entirety by the movie, right? The table throwing, wheel kicks, "defensive velocities," etc.
Anakin was toying with Dooku. That is made obvious in the novelization. He had his number all along. From page 70, 6th paragraph, the Jedi dominated Dooku.
According to Gideon, one of the visual guides [IIRC] notes with pictures the point in the duel at which the styles are mimicked and therefore implies what point the Jedi get "serious." Keeping events in order, the first sequence in the duel would be the "toying" bit and the second would be where they're "serious." Problem is, immediately after they get "serious" things fall apart entirely; Obi-Wan gets thrown to the ground, Anakin forces Dooku up the stairway, both Jedi get put on their asses.
truejediIn which case he would no longer be considered "lightside." You weren't here a month and a half ago when DS and I discussed 'Obi-Wan vs. Maul', but it's essentially the same situation; a Jedi calling on his rage has his abilities enhanced to levels beyond the norm. It's essentially a deus ex machina, and not applicable in a versus thread unless otherwise specified.
Furthermore, Even lightside anakin frequently used anger to make him stronger. I'm not sure of a single duel where he didn't use his anger.