Originally posted by Kotor3
Is there something wrong Slash_KMC with people coming to this thread and expressing their opinions? There are two different opinions or point of views that are being expressed within this thread, please do not start speaking like Lucien as if your point of view is fact.
How is my point of view not fact?
You know what, **** it. Just start thinking about the stuff I said and then maybe you can come to a conclusion without me having to go through this horrible task of trying to make understand.
First, learn about the difference between subjectivity and objectivity.
truejedi I am not sure if you are making a statement or asking a question.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
How is my point of view not fact?
A Sith lord that knew Revan was coming and monitored his moves and prepare the environment to be in his favor while being empowered by the Star Forge. That is fact. So makeup whatever fantasy you would like to as to how Revan defeated Malak. A rock on the head, grenades, etc. It is still an impressive and mighty feat for Revan to have done so under those circumstances to a Sith Lord like Malak.
no. its not.
and malak killed 3 Jedi Masters all at once with force drain? Where did that happen?
It is not an impressive victory until you can prove that Malak was powerful. If you are basing his strength off of holding nameless Sith in subjection, that isn't a very good approach.
So. It is not impressive.
Since you like absolutes so much, I will say, without more information (which we may someday get) Malak is not impressive. That is fact.
Originally posted by Kotor3
You want to state that you point of view is fact then so be it. It still does not take away from the fact that it is an impressive feat for Revan to have defeated a Sith lord like Malak who could not be defeated by another Sith or Jedi out of thousands. A Sith Lord who knew techniques such as force drain a technique that killed three jedi masters at once.A Sith lord that knew Revan was coming and monitored his moves and prepare the environment to be in his favor while being empowered by the Star Forge. That is fact. So makeup whatever fantasy you would like to as to how Revan defeated Malak. A rock on the head, grenades, etc. It is still an impressive and mighty feat for Revan to have done so under those circumstances to a Sith Lord like Malak.
I also think that Revan beat Malak because he was more powerful, that is my opinion and it is most logical. We are entitled to have this opinion.
But we can't use this as an impressive and mighty feat in a debate based on facts, because of reasons I've been trying to explain for quite a while now. We need to be sure of it 100%, not 95%.
EDIT: Had to add the quote because someone (not naming people) posted right before me.
Originally posted by truejedi
no. its not.
Originally posted by truejediI was talking about the technique which yes Kreia used and Malak knew how to used also.
and malak killed 3 Jedi Masters all at once with force drain? Where did that happen?
Originally posted by truejedi
It is not an impressive victory until you can prove that Malak was powerful. If you are basing his strength off of holding nameless Sith in subjection, that isn't a very good approach.
Not to mention that Malak knew techniques in the force that some of the PT Sith did not know. Force lightning something Sidious forgot to teach Maul, force drain, to name some.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
I also think that Revan beat Malak because he was more powerful, that is my opinion and it is most logical. We are entitled to have this opinion.But we can't use this as an impressive and mighty feat in a debate based on facts, because of reasons I've been trying to explain for quite a while now. We need to be sure of it 100%, not 95%.
EDIT: Had to add the quote because someone (not naming people) posted right before me.
Originally posted by Kotor3
I was talking about the technique which yes Kreia used and Malak knew how to used also.
So every person that knows a technique is exactly as powerful as anyone else? So that put's Johun's TK on par with Yoda's? Try again.
I’ve already been through this with you.
And you were completely wrong, so...
What is it about ruling over thousands of Sith and not being able to be defeated by no one, Sith nor Jedi, but your former Master makes you weak and not powerful. You called them nameless as if feats and names are going to be provided by the authors for thousands of Siths,
Obviously only the most important would be mention such as Revan the only one who could defeat him.
Not to mention that Malak knew techniques in the force that some of the PT Sith did not know. Force lightning something Sidious forgot to teach Maul, force drain, to name some.
Prove sidious forgot to teach Maul force lightning.
And already discussed, knowing a technique doesn't mean anything.
Else johun's TK...
or as you said, I've already been through that with you.
If your only intention to speculate on Revan's power, then you might as well have said "let's pretend" because any speculation you make can be contradicted by another user who has another speculation on the matter.
Originally posted by Kotor3Hey, I was mentioned (albeit in an erroneous manner)!
Is there something wrong Slash_KMC with people coming to this thread and expressing their opinions? There are two different opinions or point of views that are being expressed within this thread, please do not start speaking like Lucien as if your point of view is fact.
I don't present my opinion as fact. When I have an opinion on something, or I "feel" if something is true or likely to happen, I make a point to mention that it is just that: a feeling or an opinion. When I state that something is a fact, it's because it either is, or I'm under the impression that it is. It has been years, both in real life and on this forum of fiction, that I have ever held my opinion to be the uncontested truth. So please Kotor3, though your opinion of me is that of an egotistical blowhard with self-esteem issues, don't present your point of view as a fact.
Originally posted by truejedi
So every person that knows a technique is exactly as powerful as anyone else? So that put's Johun's TK on par with Yoda's? Try again.
Originally posted by truejedi
And you were completely wrong, so...
Originally posted by truejedi
So you are going to assume they are powerful? That is your love of KOTOR speaking, not your common sense.
I find it interesting that feats and names are provided for... none of them. (Darth Bandon has a name, no feats) and yet you assume they are powerful. I don't ask for all. I ask for... 5. Give me 5 powerful Sith that malak had under him, and i will drop the argument. 0, however, is not enough to keep me from laughing at you for loving Kotor enough to ignore the facts.
Yes, common sense which clearly you are not using. So, the ancient Sith, like Nadd, are weak because we cannot name five powerful Sith that they had under them. Ridiculous! We are not talking about using Revan in a versus forum but you are taking away from even calling Revan or Malak powerful. Astounding!
Originally posted by truejediPure assumption which you can keep if it wish to.
This is true only if the rest of the Sith sucked, which i guess they did, since they weren't mentioned.
Originally posted by truejediI can very well ask you to prove that he Maul knew the technique. Unless you can provide an example where Maul used force lightning then I stick with my statement. Unless you are going to contradict yourself and assume he did.
Prove sidious forgot to teach Maul force lightning.
Originally posted by truejediOf course because TK can be compared to Force drain.
And already discussed, knowing a technique doesn't mean anything.
Else johun's TK...
Originally posted by truejedi
If your only intention to speculate on Revan's power, then you might as well have said "let's pretend" because any speculation you make can be contradicted by another user who has another speculation on the matter.
Originally posted by Kotor3Great logic , so one force user does it it means the other one can replicate it with the same consequences.I was talking about the technique which yes Kreia used and Malak knew how to used also.
Originally posted by Kotor3Yeah and those sith were jokes, just look at the academy on korriban with the majority of those sith are blithering idiots and morons.I’ve already been through this with you. What is it about ruling over thousands of Sith and not being able to be defeated by no one, Sith nor Jedi, but your former Master makes you weak and not powerful.
And then again who actually challenged malak during that time? And even if any one wanted to, how the hell were they going to get to him in the first place considering that he spent most of his time on the star forge or the leviathan?
Originally posted by Kotor3You do know i can argue that sion and nihilus can beat malak right? The fact that they were alive during the JCW but were training in secrecy in malachor V.
You called them nameless as if feats and names are going to be provided by the authors for thousands of Siths, ridiculous. Obviously only the most important would be mention such as Revan the only one who could defeat him.
And yes, unlike the PT jedi, the kotor era jedi and sith were nothing but pansies and jokes(except revan and a handful) meaning they were no named featless wonders so i don't know why are you even trying to claim that revan being more powerful than these jokers mean anything in the first place.
Compare revan to the sith and jedi from OTHER era's and even that is hard to do considering we have seen nothing from him combat wise. We have seen no feats and hell we don't actually see him in combat other than gameplay mechanics.
Most of his feats and stated in the kotor campaign guide is ambiguous, it may have stated that revan killed calo nord, but how do we know that he didn't simply deliver the killing blow when the rest of revans team ganged up on him?
Like i said, its ambiguous and almost inconclusive
Originally posted by Kotor3Name those techniques and substantiate your petty claims.
Not to mention that Malak knew techniques in the force that some of the PT Sith did not know. Force lightning something Sidious forgot to teach Maul, force drain, to name some.
So what if sidious didn't train maul to use force lightning or force drain? Sidious never intended maul to became that powerful to surpass him in the sith order and he trained maul to be more of a brawler and a physical fighter than a force scholar.
Oh and quality > quantity, Just look at Vader or even Galen for that matter, they aren't scholars in the force yet their command of the force surpasses that of almost every sith lord in the kotor era(save for nihilus which is debatable).
Just because malak may know one or two more force powers than some of the PT sith DOES NOT make him superior.
Originally posted by Kotor3SPECULATE.
I agree Slash_KMC that we cannot use Revan in a debate in terms of a vs forum, however we can speculate on his power and skill.
Its still hard to put revan anywhere in the top ten list until he actually shows us something in combat.
Originally posted by Kotor3Good, at least you aren't a moron like S_W_legend, a super fanboy in denial.
That was my point of making this thread to have a discussion concerning this. I never was implying that he could be used in a vs forum. I can see how that might have seem the case seeing that the thread was initially taken off track by the usually morons that come on Revan threads to bash him for being an unknown. Even in the expanded universe.
Originally posted by Wolverine2179 Yeah and those sith were jokes, just look at the academy on korriban with the majority of those sith are blithering idiots and morons.
Unless the Sith “hopefuls” (read: not even true Sith yet) on the academy become the standard for how we judge Revan and Malak’s Empire, then this hilariously crappy point you just made is quite promptly tossed away like the garbage that it is. Even if you include all the Sith on Korriban (and somehow prove that they all suck, which you can’t) it still wouldn’t be enough to generalize for all of the Sith of the Sith Empire.
Originally posted by Wolverine2179 And yes, unlike the PT jedi, the kotor era jedi and sith were nothing but pansies and jokes(except revan and a handful) meaning they were no named featless wonders so i don't know why are you even trying to claim that revan being more powerful than these jokers mean anything in the first place
All the Sith and Jedi of Revan’s time were nothing pansies and jokes? Really? Did you seriously just go ahead and type that? Considering you’ve been going on about not spouting statements that can’t be even remotely proven, I think it’s safe to say that you are a pathetic hypocrite.
I seem to recall posting a page from the campaign guide showing that the Jedi of this era were combat hardened veterans. Seeing as how most of the Sith in this time were Jedi that defected, this would probably carry over. The Jedi and Sith of this time are not “pansies and jokes”, just felt I would make that clear.
Originally posted by Autokrat
I seem to recall posting a page from the campaign guide showing that the Jedi of this era were combat hardened veterans.
a completely relative statement. all it means is that they were used to combat in their era thats what a veteran is. every single clone is a batlle hardened veteran every rebel alliance soldier is a battle hardened soldier. however that statement is not an indication of their actual ability especially in comparison with the rest of the eras.
so im with wolverine on this. care to provide so actual concrete proof as to why the kotor sith were anything but a bunch of pussies? wheres the feats? were they possibly a bunch of a badasses? certaintly so but only in comparison to other sith and jedi of their time. a pussy beating a pussy doesnt change the fact that theyre still both pussies lol. this is the same type of fallacious thinking that makes people think marka ragnos is impressive. know what i mean?
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
a completely relative statement. all it means is that they were used to combat in their era thats what a veteran is. every single clone is a batlle hardened veteran every rebel alliance soldier is a battle hardened soldier. however that statement is not an indication of their actual ability especially in comparison with the rest of the eras.
Clearly you don't realize what a relative statement is, otherwise you wouldn't have tried to make such a worthless argument. The campaign guide establishes the Jedi of the Kotor Era as being combat hardened veterans and also states that the majority of them are masters of lightsaber combat. This is not a relative statement.
And personally I'd argue that the average soldier of the Rebellion was probably rather capable since they consistently went up against a monolithic Empire and somehow didn't get wasted every single time, when by all rights they should have and the Rebellion should have realistically failed miserably.
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel so im with wolverine on this. care to provide so actual concrete proof as to why the kotor sith were anything but a bunch of pussies? wheres the feats? were they possibly a bunch of a badasses? certaintly so but only in comparison to other sith and jedi of their time. a pussy beating a pussy doesnt change the fact that theyre still both pussies lol. this is the same type of fallacious thinking that makes people think marka ragnos is impressive. know what i mean?
I'm going to take this statement you just made and dump it out on your head, letting the shit spill all over the place.
Thank you for asking me to prove a negative, which is what you are trying to do right now. Wolverine claims that the KotoR Era Jedi suck and has no proof whatsoever to back this up. I come in which a canon quote that says otherwise and you come and somehow try to say that I can't prove that the Jedi don't suck because I can't prove that they are badass.
For one, I'm not trying to prove that the KotoR Era Jedi are any better than the Jedi of any other era.
Two, I have a canon quote.
Three, you're pulling a argumentum ad ignorantiam and as such you shouldn't really use the term fallacious when your own post is one big fallacy.
Can you prove to me that the Jedi of the KotoR era were "pussies", can you? I have a canon quote that says that clearly they didn't suck, you have nothing but Wolverine's nonsensical opinion.
It is rather lame to assume that the average Jedi Knight, all things considered, during the KotOR period were anything other than skilled.
They had to be in order to survive.
Of course that doesn't mean that the Jedi of the PT were any less skilled, given that the Jedi had to deal with quadrillions of enemies; the Confederacy clearly (and vastly) outnumbered the Jedi to an extent far greater than the Sith ever did and ever would.
Originally posted by Autokrat
Clearly you don't realize what a relative statement is, otherwise you wouldn't have tried to make such a worthless argument. The campaign guide establishes the Jedi of the Kotor Era as being combat hardened veterans and also states that the majority of them are masters of lightsaber combat. This is not a relative statement.
yes its a relative statement if youre trying it to use it gauge their power in comparison to the other eras. it is definitely a relative statement.
And personally I'd argue that the average soldier of the Rebellion was probably rather capable since they consistently went up against a monolithic Empire and somehow didn't get wasted every single time, when by all rights they should have and the Rebellion should have realistically failed miserably.
there wouldnt be a need to argue because id agree with you. this doesnt contradict with anything ive said. 😐
I'm going to take this statement you just made and dump it out on your head, letting the shit spill all over the place.
do you feel like an adult when you talk like this? do you feel like a man? im just curious because its a pattern ive noticed in male members on this site. they talk like though guys for no reason.
Thank you for asking me to prove a negative, which is what you are trying to do right now. Wolverine claims that the KotoR Era Jedi suck and has no proof whatsoever to back this up. I come in which a canon quote that says otherwise and you come and somehow try to say that I can't prove that the Jedi don't suck because I can't prove that they are badass.For one, I'm not trying to prove that the KotoR Era Jedi are any better than the Jedi of any other era.
Two, I have a canon quote.
Three, you're pulling a argumentum ad ignorantiam and as such you shouldn't really use the term fallacious when your own post is one big fallacy.
so what youre basically saying is that you cant provide any actual canon feats that show that the kotor era jedi can hold a candle to those of the pt and up. alright.
Can you prove to me that the Jedi of the KotoR era were "pussies", can you?
nope. i cant. but i can say that going by what the two eras have demonstrated to us in abilities and feats theyre lack-luster compared to the other eras.
I have a canon quote that says that clearly they didn't suck,
no you dont. you have a quote saying that they were used to fighting other people in their era.
- - -
by the way. im going to ahead and warn you now that i dont appreciate the hostility with which you talk to me, and its important for you to know when i have discussions with people the dicussions always goes at the pace that i choose and with the atmosphere that i choose, and if it isnt going that way then the discussion ends.
So that being the case if you want to continue to have discussions with me then shape up and calm down. if not then tell me straight up so i can put you on ignore and move about my business. as gideon and wolverine already know, the self-esteem i have for myself is high enough that i have no problems with axing a discussion with someone if i dont like the direction its going in. im a ***** like that.
Uh this is a retarded discussion. Autokrat is right. The fact that the Jedi of the Old Republic spent lifetime fighting sith, mandalorians, etc, shows they're battle hardened, perhaps even more so than the Jedi of the movies. There is nothing that indicates that the Old Republic Jedi sucked. If you are going to claim that, you must provide proof.
whats the point in using that as an indicator of their strength if those sith and mandalorians arent impressive themselves. an extreme example would be a man applying for a job and stating that hes qualified for the job because he spent a lifetime working in a preschool. how does keeping track of toddlers equate to being manly enough to handle prison inmates?
thats all im saying. ive never had the intention of saying "kotor era jedi are weak period". in only talkiing in terms of comparing them to the pt and njo era jedi. sure they were uber and powerful as hell in their own era but not so much when they go against the jedi of the newer ages. 😬