POSITIVE CLAIMS IN RELEGION vs INTERPRETIVE FLEXIBILITY

Started by Shakyamunison3 pages

Originally posted by Sado22
well, okay, that was stupid on my part.
why insist on there being more than one interpretation of the "universe is expanding" line but insist on there being only one for the "6 day universe"?

i've already explained the hebrew origins of the bible, the translation cockups and the fact that there was no sun at the time so how could it be 24-hour day anyway.

Some people have a belief that they are very attached too. They have invested every last part of their self identity onto this belief. They then want to find everything they can to support their belief, and ignore all else. They do this because they have too much to loose.

so, not really a reply to anyone specifically, but on the topic of religion trying to use scientific findings to prove their truth:

Isn't this a little short sighted of the religious community? I mean, yes, scientific "fact" is becoming more refined as time goes on, and some things, at this point, it is fair to say will not be overturned by evidence, or at least, would require such revision in how we understand things that it is more likely that we actually have a valid model (not that we necessarily understand the exact mechanism, but this is getting really phil o sci) than that we are shooting in the dark. However, all of this must be qualified with the caveat that scientific fact is constantly changing.

So, lets even suggest that the Quran says the universe is expanding, in no uncertain terms. This is only evidenced by science so long as the empirical evidence suggests that the universe is expanding. Just because that is what we see now with observation (and, given the predictions that have come from it, it is highly unlikely that it is entirely incorrect) does not mean that it will always be scientific fact.

Like, the whole Galileo issue is almost exactly the same as this. Religions offer a different type of truth than science, and for that reason, imho, actually devalue themselves when they take a stand on empirical matters, largely because a) it can undermine the authority of their other dogma when the science changes and b) religious people are not really trained to have an intuitive understanding of empirical causality or the scientific method.

One of the recent Popes said something like "We shouldn't fear the results of science, for any inconsistencies between dogma and science are simply what is yet to be discovered". I don't believe a word of it, but that seems like a much more intellectually tenable position than trying to rework dogma and science to be complimentary.

Some people have a belief that they are very attached too. They have invested every last part of their self identity onto this belief. They then want to find everything they can to support their belief, and ignore all else. They do this because they have too much to loose.

religious people have as much on the stake when the science/religion debate starts...if not more because faith is more important to a lot of theists than life, respect and honor. yet, no one thinks of this when they are beating down on muslims and christians. our belief our faith is something we are attached to as well and we have as much to loose as anyone else.

Isn't this a little short sighted of the religious community? I mean, yes, scientific "fact" is becoming more refined as time goes on, and some things, at this point, it is fair to say will not be overturned by evidence, or at least, would require such revision in how we understand things that it is more likely that we actually have a valid model (not that we necessarily understand the exact mechanism, but this is getting really phil o sci) than that we are shooting in the dark. However, all of this must be qualified with the caveat that scientific fact is constantly changing.

you're right. Ken Wilber said that religion should never be used to prove sciene and vise versa because once the scientific fact falls, god falls with it.
but as long as science keeps discovering things, people who hold on to belief desperately will want it to in accord with religion. notice how i said "hold on to belief desperately". to me, science and religion are two distinct roads and operate differently. one is related to the phyiscal and the other to the metaphysical. the very basis of their existence are polar opposites: intellect for science and faith for religion. science may or may not disagree with religion, but people who insist on an accord between the two are actually missing the point imo. religion isn't about facts but of lving a good life. science isn't about lving a good life but facts. good theists know that and can live with even the most brutal of scientific facts because they know whats really the point in the quran or the bible.

Like, the whole Galileo issue is almost exactly the same as this. Religions offer a different type of truth than science, and for that reason, imho, actually devalue themselves when they take a stand on empirical matters, largely because a) it can undermine the authority of their other dogma when the science changes and b) religious people are not really trained to have an intuitive understanding of empirical causality or the scientific method.

true.

~Sado

Originally posted by inimalist
Like, the whole Galileo issue is almost exactly the same as this. Religions offer a different type of truth than science, and for that reason, imho, actually devalue themselves when they take a stand on empirical matters, largely because a) it can undermine the authority of their other dogma when the science changes and b) religious people are not really trained to have an intuitive understanding of empirical causality or the scientific method.

One of the recent Popes said something like "We shouldn't fear the results of science, for any inconsistencies between dogma and science are simply what is yet to be discovered". I don't believe a word of it, but that seems like a much more intellectually tenable position than trying to rework dogma and science to be complimentary.

Interesting take. Won't stop people from trying to correlate the two, however, but I'm sure you know that.

i think people pay more attention to my avatar/sig than my posts.... 🙁

Originally posted by Sado22
i think people pay more attention to my avatar/sig than my posts.... 🙁

And whose fault is that?

😛

.....yeah, but its too good to take down 🙁

bump

Good to see you back. I had a feeling the forum needed a more aggressive touch.

yuy

Originally posted by King Kandy
But why do you take it's word on empirical things like time?

because no1 can stop him 🙂