What bullshit. Van hurt the Death Stinger...
Doc: The Death Stinger's resurrection hasn't finished yet. It still hasn't got its energy shield which means that at the moment even conventional weapons would be effective against it.
This is after it was frickin' hit by a blackhole that would have destroyed the Blade Liger.
In addition, the Death Stinger had both Van and Irvine dead to rights in its weakened state till the other due showed up. Schuboltz? I can't spell it.
Van was nothing to the Death Stinger.
And Van never took the full power of the Death Saurer twice. He took it once and took a pissy shot from a fake one another time. That shot being even weaker than teh Geno Breaker. Oh and Van couldn't defeat that either without making use of the time limit placed on Shadow.
What Van did in taking the UDS' charged particle cannon is equivalent to all the Pokemona nd human tears turning Ash back to flesh and bone from a statue. it's a deus ex machina and not representative of the usual power level. It's also stupid.
Originally posted by Wei PhoenixNo, I am comparing skill with skill. The example that he gave, with learning how to read/deceive movements, is not skill, its experience. I was simply telling him that.
Are you comparing Vega to the young versions of Van and Raven?
Shouldn't it only matter how good he is compared to them at their peak?Sure we can...what's their peak? Vega was in four episodes. Van was in 67. Raven in probably about half as much as that. Truth be told, this isn't a fair thread because of the difference in episode totals and character growth. So to circumvent that, I use the three characters when they are around or nearly the same age.
Has the Liger Zero ever damaged anything like the Death Stinger?No, but it hasn't been as severely damaged by a zoid like the Geno Breaker like Van's Shield Liger was, either. Again, lack of evidence is not evidence.
Originally posted by Darth Macabre
No, I am comparing skill with skill. The example that he gave, with learning how to read/deceive movements, is not skill, its experience. I was simply telling him that.Sure we can...what's their peak? Vega was in four episodes. Van was in 67. Raven in probably about half as much as that. Truth be told, this isn't a fair thread because of the difference in episode totals and character growth. So to circumvent that, I use the three characters when they are around or nearly the same age.
No, but it hasn't been as severely damaged by a zoid like the Geno Breaker like Van's Shield Liger was, either. Again, lack of evidence is not evidence. [/B]
The Shield Liger is not greater than the Blade Liger. Can you prove Liger Zero can damage anything like the Death Stinger?
That's faulty logic though, comparing someone to someone else when they're the same age, especially when the times are so different. It's not our fault Vega lacks air time and feats. The lack of evidence begets speculation, no proof.
Once again it's not our fault Van and Raven surpassed them due to more episodes and harder adversaries.
Originally posted by Wei PhoenixCan you prove that it can't?
The Shield Liger is not greater than the Blade Liger. Can you prove Liger Zero can damage anything like the Death Stinger?
Edit: Sorry, just saw that I wrote "Shield" in my previous post, when I I meant Blade Liger...Zero has not been damaged by a Geno Breaker like the Blade Liger was.
That's faulty logic though, comparing someone to someone else when they're the same age, especially when the times are so different. It's not our fault Vega lacks air time and feats. The lack of evidence begets speculation, no proof.Ironic, being that you're going on about Zero not being able to damage a zoid like the Death Stinger. Lack of evidence begets speculation, not proof, you said it yourself. There is no evidence that Vega wasn't more skilled than Van and Raven. Again, being a more skilled does not guarantee that Vega would beat either two in a battle.
Once again it's not our fault Van and Raven surpassed them due to more episodes and harder adversaries.
No, its not your fault, but you can't make a claim about something, when there is no evidence either way. Again, in your words, lack of evidence begets speculation, what I've been saying all along.
No what I'm doing is basing my opinions off of their respective feats. On a feats perspective they win. The proof is in the feats. The Liger Zero has never gone up against something like the DS and there is nothing that suggests that it can. The DS was insanely durable. I believe you don't understand what I'm saying about the evidence.
What I'm saying is that you can't claim X can do B without evidence to support they can do so. I can say that the LZ can't harm the DS due to him not being shown hurting anything near as durable as the DS. I however can't say that Van beats Bit in hand to hand combat just because he is in the army. They both lack h2h feats so you can't make a clear decision off of who would win.
Originally posted by Wei PhoenixNo, they don't. There are no facts that say either team would win...at all.
No what I'm doing is basing my opinions off of their respective feats. On a feats perspective they win.
The proof is in the feats. The Liger Zero has never gone up against something like the DS and there is nothing that suggests that it can. The DS was insanely durable. I believe you don't understand what I'm saying about the evidence.
I don't think you understand the burden of such a claim. I'm not claiming either way, you are, you're the one that needs the facts and proof, not me. You saying "there is nothing that suggests," when, in fact, there is nothing that suggests that it can't. Name one thing that suggests that it can't? It never got beaten down like Van's Blade Liger did, not once. So if you're going to say that Van's Blade Liger is better than Liger Zero, like you are implying, then you have to prove that it is, something that you'd never be able to do.
What I'm saying is that you can't claim X can do B without evidence to support they can do so. I can say that the LZ can't harm the DS due to him not being shown hurting anything near as durable as the DS.
Again, lack of evidence IS NOT EVIDENCE. How many times do you have to hear that? You're preaching something and then immediately going against it. Liger Zero has damaged every zoid it ever went up against, that is a fact. So, if you're going to extrapolate, why can't I? Liger Zero can damage Death Stinger. See what I did there? I am not making any claim, you're making the claims, I don't think you understand that.
*Ps, I have no problem with you, so don't think I'm arguing you, I'm simply debating.
The feats are how Van was able to fight the DS head on, the fact that he and Raven usually fight to a draw, the fact that Raven was able to tank an assault from 3 genosaurers and one of their weak CPCs and beat all of them. The fact that the Organoids push the zoids past their limit, it enhances all of their abilities.
It also never fought opponent's as tough as Van's and Bit's opponents were never really out to straight up kill him. Van fought for his life every time. Bit fought for sport and fun. Who do you think was more pressured to win?
My proof is that the BL+Zeke was able to damage a zoid that could survive atmospheric reentry without a scratch. The fact that it destroyed the ultimate DS. Want to prove that the LZ can beat him? Any feats of him damaging something DS level or higher?
Did any of the zoids the LZ destroyed have any durability feats comparable to the DS? If you can show me the LZ damaging anything with comparable durability feats to the DS then I'll admit that Bit can damage it.
Last post of the night.
Luminatus, you've forgotten that the Stinger was back in full order when Ambient healed it.
As for the rest, your only partly right, but that doesn't mean he didn't do it.
@Darth: Did you just ask him to prove a negative?
Heres a fact, we cannot assume that somebody CAN do something they have never shown capable of doing, we must assume that they can't until shown otherwise.
It's not nessisarily wrong to say Vega & Bit can't tackle the Death Zoids, because they have never fought opponents like that before. RD from FUZORS has a claim to it by tackling the Seismosaurus, but Bit & Vega don't, the closest they came was breaking up a falling judge satellite, and wasting a Whale King.
Originally posted by Wei PhoenixFight is a gross exaggeration. They were dominated by a full powered Death Stinger, and could only fight evenly/equally/a chance to win against a Death Stinger which wasn't at full power just yet, as relayed to the viewers by Dr. D.
The feats are how Van was able to fight the DS head on, the fact that he and Raven usually fight to a draw, the fact that Raven was able to tank an assault from 3 genosaurers and one of their weak CPCs and beat all of them.
The fact that the Organoids push the zoids past their limit, it enhances all of their abilities.Are we saying how skilled Van is with Zeke? I didn't think that, but if that's what you want to do, sure.
It also never fought opponent's as tough as Van's and Bit's opponents were never really out to straight up kill him. Van fought for his life every time. Bit fought for sport and fun. Who do you think was more pressured to win?
That's a cop out, man. Using our beliefs to gauge the pressure Bit felt is faulty.
My proof is that the BL+Zeke was able to damage a zoid that could survive atmospheric reentry without a scratch.
A zoid that was able to survive atmospheric reentry, until it was destroyed and resurrected as a version that wasn't at full power just yet; again, Dr. D supplies the proof of that.
The fact that it destroyed the ultimate DS. Want to prove that the LZ can beat him? Any feats of him damaging something DS level or higher?No, but there are no feats that it can't damage anything Death Stinger level or higher, like I've been saying all along. Again, do you not understand I am making no claim whatsoever? In fact, it was Luminasta, not me. Then again, there are no feats of the Zero being shot out of the gravity cannon either, but I guess the Zero wouldn't be able to do that in your mind.
Did any of the zoids the LZ destroyed have any durability feats comparable to the DS? If you can show me the LZ damaging anything with comparable durability feats to the DS then I'll admit that Bit can damage it.
No, but it defeated and damaged every zoid that it ever went up against. It damaged a zoid that was able to take a charged particle cannon from three Geno Saurus' (or Geno Saurers), a feat that puts the Fuhrer on par with the Geno Breaker. So who knows what it wouldn't be able to damage with its SLC, luckily I'm not making such a claim.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
@Darth: Did you just ask him to prove a negative?Heres a fact, we cannot assume that somebody CAN do something they have never shown capable of doing, we must assume that they can't until shown otherwise.
Prooving that something can't do something is not a negative, I have no idea where you got that idea. And, no, we don't have to assume that, I don't understand why you would think that. Raven was never shown being able to pilot a Pteras, do we have to assume that he wouldn't be able to? I'm not saying he can or can't, I'm just saying you can't automatically think Zero wouldn't be able to damage the Death Stinger if it was in the same situation as Van's Blade Liger.
Darth....... Dr D's oppinion gets shattered when Ambient re-fused with the Death Stinger to heal it during his fight with Van... it was back at full strength, and Van mauled himlike a tiger mauls a rabbit.
And I most certainly can, because Zero has NEVER shown the ability to cause that much damage to a superior foe before. The most armoured foes the Zero has faced simply cannot compare to a Stinger... Unless your reffering to the Liger Zero Falcon...
Originally posted by Darkstorm ZeroWait, time out, you're actually using the Zoid Eve enhanced Blade Liger/Zeke as proof? If so, I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous and I will not reply to this thread anymore. Without Zoid Eve, Van was literally doing NOTHING to the Death Stinger.
Darth....... Dr D's oppinion gets shattered when Ambient re-fused with the Death Stinger to heal it during his fight with Van... it was back at full strength, and Van mauled himlike a tiger mauls a rabbit.And I most certainly can, because Zero has NEVER shown the ability to cause that much damage to a superior foe before. The most armoured foes the Zero has faced simply cannot compare to a Stinger... Unless your reffering to the Liger Zero Falcon...
And you must certainly can't because Zero has not lost to any of the supposed "superior foes." So who's to say what he can or cannot damage? Would Zero lose to the Death Stinger? Sure, but IN THAT SAME SITUATION can Zero do the same amount of damage to the Death Stinger that the Blade Liger did? Yes, I would presume that it could.
Don't bother replying, I'm pulling myself out of this. I don't really feel like debating this subject because there is no evidence on my side due to lack of feats and I would most certainly lose so I concede in that respect. That applies to my replies directed at you, Wei, as well.
No.... Before Eve awakened, Hiltz called for Ambient when he busted the CPC firing it at Van.... By that stage, Zeke had taken off, but it was several minutes before Eve awoke... Dude, you don't remember the fight?
He lost to Sisco & the Tasker Sisters... in Lightning Saix... and lost to an unarmoured Fury... and was utterly struggling against the Shadow Fox... AND barely managed a draw with the Elephander.
He may have a chance with the Schneider CAS, And would probably win if he fuses with a Jet Falcon (Because RD blows hot sweaty moose balls), but otherwise he'd boned utterly.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
No.... Before Eve awakened, Hiltz called for Ambient when he busted the CPC firing it at Van.... By that stage, Zeke had taken off, but it was several minutes before Eve awoke... Dude, you don't remember the fight?
I think you're referencing two different fights, man. At the end of episode 30, Van fought a not fully powered and still busted Death Stinger. And then when they fought in episode 31, the Blade Liger was bathing in Zoid Eve when he fought the Death Stinger and Hiltz called Ambient.
Edit: Since it wasn't part of the debate, I responded to it.
Originally posted by Darkstorm ZeroUntrue. Eve was already flaring up, as witnessed by Hiltz saying "Even if he's bathed in Eve's light, this shouldn't be possible."
No, it's the same fight, but Eve wasn't awakened till Hiltz was being fused into the Stinger's core, by that time Hiltz retreated.Van received no power boost for that fight, otherwise the Stinger could not have stopped Van from charging Prozen
The full quote being "Even if he bathed in the light of the Zoid Eve, theres no way that should be possible"
This is in effect stating that Hiltz doesn't know where Van's power is coming from. He knew full well the effects of Eve. Thats no Eve boost my friend. Thats something else.
The only thing we can say about Eve at that poing was that it was uncovered, it wasnt awake until that bungled rebounded shot from a Genosaurer sparked it off.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero"Even if he bathed in the light," implies that zoid Eve is already active, just not fully yet.
The full quote being "Even if he bathed in the light of the Zoid Eve, theres no way that should be possible"This is in effect stating that Hiltz doesn't know where Van's power is coming from. He knew full well the effects of Eve. Thats no Eve boost my friend. Thats something else.
Oh, and he says what I said in the Japanese version.
Edit: I'm done, night folks.