Is more technology the answer?

Started by Dolos13 pages
Originally posted by Scarlet Fox
No. The more advanced our Tech is the lazier humanity will become. Eventually it will all be done with a push of a button. Robots will fix the machines. Robots will fix the robots. And humans will be fat lazy blobs in hover chairs, sucking down liquid pizza from a cup.... Basically we will end up as Space humans from Wall-E.

Well...I prefer to think we'll be the robots and that human part of us that still remains will be in a VR paradise in some web where we are all connected digitally. That static that composes our consciousness could be made immortal if it's separated from our aging dna.

We won't be lazy per say, we'd be as lazy as Adam and Eve were.

Originally posted by Dolos
Well...I prefer to think we'll be the robots and that human part of us that still remains will be in a VR paradise in some web where we are all connected digitally. That static that composes our consciousness could be made immortal if it's separated from our aging dna.

We won't be lazy per say, we'd be as lazy as Adam and Eve were.

What if the VR system experiences a system crashes? 😛

Information technology will be alive in inanimate matter, it will wake it up. It will no longer require an electromagnetic charge. Nothing can affect it...the communication is on the quantum level.

Originally posted by Dolos
Nothing can affect it...

I release an transcendental AI virus into your server.
I restrict trade to your computronium world forcing it to consume itself to provide the needed energy to run.
I fire ultrasonic antimatter MIRV warheads at your planet in a random walk.
I make a minor programming error while creating the simulation that is run on your computronium planet and the whole things fails fifty years later.

Everything can be affected.

The way to deal with a server problem post-Singularity is the same as it is today, make back ups.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I release an transcendental AI virus into your server.
I restrict trade to your computronium world forcing it to consume itself to provide the needed energy to run.
I fire ultrasonic antimatter MIRV warheads at your planet in a random walk.
I make a minor programming error while creating the simulation that is run on your computronium planet and the whole things fails fifty years later.

Everything can be affected.

The way to deal with a server problem post-Singularity is the same as it is today, make back ups.

What if the backups don't want to stay backups and revolt against the non-back-ups 😛

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I release an transcendental AI virus into your server.
I restrict trade to your computronium world forcing it to consume itself to provide the needed energy to run.
I fire ultrasonic antimatter MIRV warheads at your planet in a random walk.
I make a minor programming error while creating the simulation that is run on your computronium planet and the whole things fails fifty years later.
I'd throw in a Black Angel for good measure.

True true.

Then again, other advanced civs are likely not to behave that way. Neither would ours.

Just saying.

Originally posted by Dolos
True true.

Then again, other advanced civs are likely not to behave that way. Neither would ours.

Just saying.

I think that's contingent entirely on your requirement that technological advancement occur alongside social advancement. One proposed explanation for the Great Silence is that everyone who transmits signals into space eventually gets wiped out by violent assholes.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I think that's contingent entirely on your requirement that technological advancement occur alongside social advancement. One proposed explanation for the Great Silence is that everyone who transmits signals into space eventually gets wiped out by violent assholes.

This is a mere pessimistic observation of human nature. Violence is in no way technoprogressive after a certain point, now capitalism is proving to be disadvantageous due to the global monetary bell curve phenomena due to exponential production and an inability to eliminate scarcity via distribution and utilization of said resources for liberating how useless and low paying modern jobs are becoming as man is replaced by his tech and science jobs are thrown out the window. That's how capitalistic competition promotes it via putting aside the sciences and being unable to understand the radical change to industrial methodology that just occurred when this new tech was developed. One example would be the super-collider particle accelerator American physicists requested funding for. Legislature said no, funding didn't seem practical at the time because the scientists "wouldn't find God." -claimed a senator.

Instead New Zealand made the LHC that has helped science with many discoveries (reated quark-gluon plasma, CERN is also responsible for many technological advancements like positron systems (high density avalanche chambers) that are used in scanning and imaging of smaller organisms. A lot of the technology we use online is also because of CERN and the medixchip (which is used very often in dosimetry) which is a very sensitive particle detector which helps a lot in reducing exposure times to rad &c. ), however it was no where near the scope and scale of what America could have built and therefore discovered back in America's Golden Age, 1965-1993.

Everything humans knew how to do to get us where we are is now becoming increasingly irrelevant for taking us further along. We are becoming increasingly hapless due to that fact that information technologies are rapidly out-sourcing our usefulness, already proving to be far too perplex to handle in the US's infinitely complex Intelligence Bureaucracy.

So if human nature is both violent and competitive, and violence and competitiveness are counter productive...then an intelligent life form would not act like humans. And if we do indeed transform ourselves and take the logical path with greater potential in liberating us from our grotesque nature (technoprogressivism); we will cease to be human, and therefore this militant behavior will cease to exist all-together.

At least, this is my prerogative.

Originally posted by Dolos
This is a mere pessimistic observation of human nature. Violence is in no way technoprogressive after a certain point, now capitalism is proving to be disadvantageous due to the global monetary bell curve phenomena due to exponential production and an inability to eliminate scarcity via distribution and utilization of said resources for liberating how useless and low paying modern jobs are becoming as man is replaced by his tech and science jobs are thrown out the window. That's how capitalistic competition promotes it via putting aside the sciences and being unable to understand the radical that just occurred when this new tech was developed. One example would be the super-collider particle accelerator American physicists requested funding for. Legislature said no, funding didn't seem practical at the time because the scientists "wouldn't find God." Instead New Zealand made the LHC that had man helpful discovered, however it was no where near the scope and scale of what America could have built and therefore discovered back in America's Golden Age, 1965-1993.

So if human nature is both violent and competitive, and violence and competitiveness are counter productive...then an intelligent life form would not act like humans. All humans know how to do to get us where we are is now irrelevant for taking us further. We can't even handle our own information because of it's exponential perplexity as we move forward in time.

And indeed if we use it transform ourselves and take the logical path with greater potential in liberating us from our grotesque nature (technoprogressivism); we will cease to be human, and therefore this militant behavior will cease to exist.

At least, this is my prerogative.


(1) You claim Sym's analysis of human nature is pessimistic, yet go on to deliver a pessimistic, even dismissive view of humanity while at the same time glorifying some post-human wet dream.
(2) Your first paragraph is muddled. Try using more commas and breaking up your longer sentences.
(3) How is it your prerogative? Aren't you getting a little ahead of yourself? Or did you mean to say that this was your prognosis?
(4) Your rambling on the evils of capitalism doesn't at all refute the notion of technological development not equating to moral development. What makes you so sure that self-interest and competition won't actually make for greater and faster scientific progress than selflessness and science for knowledge's sake? Philip Kitcher wrote a paper called The Division of Cognitive Labor that suggests that not only are greed, egotism, and even fraud not always harmful to scientific progress, but sometimes they actually lead us to great breakthroughs. One major example he gives is Galileo, who shamelessly self-promoted his theories, derided competing theories, and made claims that turned out to be correct later on but for which he (at the time of his making the claim) had no way of proving.

Originally posted by Dolos
This is a mere pessimistic observation of human nature. Violence is in no way technoprogressive after a certain point, now capitalism is proving to be disadvantageous due to the global monetary bell curve phenomena due to exponential production and an inability to eliminate scarcity via distribution and utilization of said resources for liberating how useless and low paying modern jobs are becoming as man is replaced by his tech and science jobs are thrown out the window. That's how capitalistic competition promotes it via putting aside the sciences and being unable to understand the radical change to industrial methodology that just occurred when this new tech was developed. One example would be the super-collider particle accelerator American physicists requested funding for. Legislature said no, funding didn't seem practical at the time because the scientists "wouldn't find God." -claimed a senator.

Instead New Zealand made the LHC that has helped science with many discoveries (reated quark-gluon plasma, CERN is also responsible for many technological advancements like positron systems (high density avalanche chambers) that are used in scanning and imaging of smaller organisms. A lot of the technology we use online is also because of CERN and the medixchip (which is used very often in dosimetry) which is a very sensitive particle detector which helps a lot in reducing exposure times to rad &c. ), however it was no where near the scope and scale of what America could have built and therefore discovered back in America's Golden Age, 1965-1993.

Everything humans knew how to do to get us where we are is now becoming increasingly irrelevant for taking us further along. We are becoming increasingly hapless due to that fact that information technologies are rapidly out-sourcing our usefulness, already proving to be far too perplex to handle in the US's infinitely complex Intelligence Bureaucracy.

So if human nature is both violent and competitive, and violence and competitiveness are counter productive...then an intelligent life form would not act like humans. And if we do indeed transform ourselves and take the logical path with greater potential in liberating us from our grotesque nature (technoprogressivism); we will cease to be human, and therefore this militant behavior will cease to exist all-together.

At least, this is my prerogative.

Quote this instead, you might understand my points against A. Human Nature, and, B. the fact that we're in over our heads, and we no longer understand how this ship works, nor are we capable of steering it onward.

Originally posted by Dolos
Quote this instead, you might understand my points against A. Human Nature, and, B. the fact that we're in over our heads, and we no longer understand how this ship works, nor are we capable of steering it onward.

I fail to see how this leads to technological enlightenment.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I fail to see how this leads to technological enlightenment.

Transhumanistically, the only logical outcome of a transformation in human nature is to eliminate the source of violent and flawed human behavior.

So if human nature is both violent and competitive, and violence and competitiveness are counter productive...then an intelligent life form would not act like humans.

An example of such behavior is chauvinism. Chauvinism is a common failure of logic manifested by the intrinsic anthropocentric pertinacity that is inexorably inherent in most of the human sapienome. This assertion indeed offers great insight into the roots of prejudice, superstition, and credulity - phenomena recurrent throughout all human history.

We'd stop being chauvinistic, as accepting a truly infinite and transcendental existence eliminates any anthropocentric viewpoint of this world.

Forgive me, if I'm sounding dogmatic. Please, if I am actually being dogmatic, snap me back to reality as you did in my previous threads. lol Understand I'm just being expressive, please do not hold my viewpoints as being intentionally hostile to yours.

Originally posted by Dolos
This is a mere pessimistic observation of human nature.

No, its rejection of the idea that advanced technology will be accompanied by advanced society (which is an amusing concept in and of itself).

Originally posted by Dolos
Violence is in no way technoprogressive after a certain point

Violence isn't technoprogressive at all. Technoprogressivism is a political stance. Abstract concepts don't have political stances.

Originally posted by Dolos
now capitalism is proving to be disadvantageous due to the global monetary bell curve phenomena due to exponential production and an inability to eliminate scarcity via distribution and utilization of said resources for liberating how useless and low paying modern jobs are becoming as man is replaced by his tech and science jobs are thrown out the window. That's how capitalistic competition promotes it via putting aside the sciences and being unable to understand the radical change to industrial methodology that just occurred when this new tech was developed.

Capitalism is another abstract concepts that is incapable of holding beliefs. Capitalists, however, understand the radical changes in industry that are happening . . . they run those industries.

Originally posted by Dolos
Legislature said no, funding didn't seem practical at the time because the scientists "wouldn't find God." -claimed a senator.

Unless you want to defend to position that the only kind of research worth doing is in particle physics then giant particle accelerators are a horrible use of money.

Originally posted by Dolos
New Zealand made the LHC

I think this says something about scientific literacy. Not sure what, though.

Originally posted by Dolos
created quark-gluon plasma

So did several places, actually. The LHC is just making the best QGC apparently.

Originally posted by Dolos
CERN is also responsible for many technological advancements like positron systems (high density avalanche chambers) that are used in scanning and imaging of smaller organisms.

You mean PET scans? Those existed before the LHC.

Originally posted by Dolos
the medixchip (which is used very often in dosimetry) which is a very sensitive particle detector which helps a lot in reducing exposure times to rad &c. )

I cannot find any reference to something called a medixchip or medix chip.

Originally posted by Dolos
America's Golden Age, 1965-1993.

Why would you say America's (scientific?) golden age ended in 1993?

Originally posted by Dolos
Everything humans knew how to do to get us where we are is now becoming increasingly irrelevant for taking us further along. We are becoming increasingly hapless due to that fact that information technologies are rapidly out-sourcing our usefulness, already proving to be far too perplex to handle in the US's infinitely complex Intelligence Bureaucracy.

So if human nature is both violent and competitive, and violence and competitiveness are counter productive...then an intelligent life form would not act like humans. And if we do indeed transform ourselves and take the logical path with greater potential in liberating us from our grotesque nature (technoprogressivism); we will cease to be human, and therefore this militant behavior will cease to exist all-together.

At least, this is my prerogative.

Was this produced by the postmodernism generator or something?

Also, your whole position is based on denying the antecedent which is a (literally) freshman level logical fallacy. Lets make it a syllogism.

Humans are violent.
We will not be human.
Therefore we will not be violent.

Let use the same reasoning elsewhere.

Apples are red.
Strawberries are not apples.
Therefore strawberries are not red.

See how that works? (or fails, rather)

SC, you're smart; let me eat your brain.

Originally posted by Mindset
SC, you're smart; let me eat your brain.

He stores all his smarts in his shaft.

So, I've kind of backed off dealing with Dolos, largely because his blocks of text span topics from the nature and causes of violence, human nature in general, sociological and anthropological attitudes and uptake of technology, physics and some lame attempts and philosophy, all of which neither he, nor his sources, are ever qualified to talk about, and in general, it shows.

But I think there is a fundamental issue here that Dolos has never addressed and is really only being talked about in the peripheries of these convos: Technological and scientific progress are not the drivers of social change, they are a reflection of the society in which they are developed. Science and technology, themselves, cannot solve a problem, especially something like violence [really, I mean seriously, c'mon], rather, they are instruments a culture uses to express what are already core values and inequalities that exist in that culture.

There are numerous examples, but the most obvious one to me has to do with food scarcity. Technological and scientific advances in agriculture and genetics have given us a situation today, as we speak, where food, in terms of demand and supply in aggregate, is no longer scarce. In theory, we produce more food than necessary to supply the caloric needs of all 7 billion people on the planet. What prevents this is an inability or lack of motivation to distribute the food to those with the most need rather than to those who can pay for it. It may feel nice to say "**** the man" and try to blame this on Capitalism, but (aside from Sym's excellent points above) Capitalism is also the only reason why such a surplus exists. Look at the state of agricultural science and technology in Communist nations if you need further proof of this point.

The point becomes even more pronounced when you look at the Green Revolution in India. The introduction of modern farming technology a) exacerbated already existent stratification between wealthy farmers who could afford to adopt the technology and already had the support of state irrigation infrastructure and those without said means b) created a stratification between farmers willing to adopt and those who chose not to adopt the technology in favor of traditional methods. While the Green Revolution did increase India's caloric output, the vast majority of the farmers who benefited from this new technology were also employed by multi-national corporations, and the food was set to see foreign markets, which lead to situations where vegetables rotted in storehouses while people on the streets starved to death. Again, you could try to blame capitalism, but again, capitalism is the only reason the Green Revolution could have happened in the first place. This issue isn't with the "-isms", nor is it with the science or the technology, it is about how cultures decide to distribute their resources, and no amount of technology or science is going to make people more egalitarian without some other underlying ideology.

My assumption is that I will get nothing approaching a meaningful answer to this, but I did want to participate in the cluster-**** this thread is becoming.

Dolos got ONed

As Ishmael the gorilla says, "We think we're flying, but really we're just in the first stage of falling."

Using technology is a taker's way. As my mother says "Make sure you always leave places the way you found them." Well, if we continue to use technology to solve problems, to do man's work for him, there's nothing we can give back to save against the futures of generations to come.

But the hard question is "How much is too much?" As a person could arguably reason that with the continuation of technology in medical sciences or husbandry can help around the world, to save peoples that would otherwise die of disease, famine, war, etc. It could be argued that any technology at all contributes to overpopulation, which would lead to more technology, which would lead to bigger and bigger consequences.

So is the answer that we [the people with the technology] stop using it so that the world will go back to its time of Darwinian merit?

I'm not about to answer that, but thinking about it, I know I would not be alive if it were not for medicinal technology. How many of you wouldn't be here now if it weren't for some kind of technology?

Obviously I don't have a lot of answers - just more questions. It is something that humans as a species need to STOP and think about.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Dolos got ONed

the ol' Nicaragua treatment