Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
The fact that Legacy takes place starting in 127 ABY is plain incompetence on the part of the writers. It means that it either the FOTJ authors have to speed up ALL of the Skywalker/Solo deaths, or that Legacy is N-Canon. Both ideas are stupid.
We agree for once. It needed a century more at least.
oh good grief gideon. It was freaking 4 on 1. he speed rushed two of them (e.g. sidious, rots) took one personal injury from a weapon he had never seen used that way before, before realizing his mistake and slicing it in half.
Your "pummel from thight to throat with knee elbow and helmet" is kinda pointless, cause the next sentence says: "through their vac suit armor, neither of them was taking much damage."
(In other words Luke had no reason to protect from hand-to-hand attacks when he was wearing armor.)
I mean, granted, he didn't pick them both up and crack their heads together with the force, but you made it sound like he was actually struggling, which was a bit of a huge overstatement.
truth of the matter is, ben and luke took out team of fifteen sith pretty much without breaking a sweat. its fiction, so intepret it however you want i suppose, but i picked up the book dreading the demise of skywalker as we know him, and ended with a smug sense of satisfaction at how easily they killed FIFTEEN sith.
its all good though, did you read the piece from backlash? I'm really looking forward to seeing what luke does to that rancor!
Truejedi
oh good grief gideon.
Chances are that you're not going to like how this discussion goes, TJ.
Truejedi
It was freaking 4 on 1.
No.
You know what was "freaking 4 on 1"? Palpatine vs. the Jedi in Revenge of the Sith. The four Sith agents towards the end had no idea Luke would be on the other end of the exit panel: "The exit panel opened. Luke found himself standing faceplate-to-faceplate with four surprised enemies."
Truejedi
he speed rushed two of them (e.g. sidious, rots) took one personal injury from a weapon he had never seen used that way before, before realizing his mistake and slicing it in half.
Don't compare this situation with Sidious's predicament. Sidious fought four highly trained Jedi Masters in single combat when both parties were fully aware of the other's presence and the Jedi had the advantage of being in combat stance with weapons drawn and ignited. These Sith? Taken totally off guard.
Faulty analogy and I would highly advise you to not go down that road again.
Truejedi
Your "pummel from thight to throat with knee elbow and helmet" is kinda pointless, cause the next sentence says: "through their vac suit armor, neither of them was taking much damage."(In other words Luke had no reason to protect from hand-to-hand attacks when he was wearing armor.)
If that were the case, he wouldn't have bothered retaliating or blocking. Oh, wait. He does both.
Truejedi
I mean, granted, he didn't pick them both up and crack their heads together with the force, but you made it sound like he was actually struggling, which was a bit of a huge overstatement.
...
😐
He's hurled into the lift wall by Rhea, takes two blows to the chest from the parang from Vestara, another from Rhea, received pummelling from Rhea, muses that Rhea "fought like a shenbit, never letting up, never hesitating, never pausing" and that "it was all [he] could do to stay between Rhea and the wall, using her as a shield" to keep Vestara at bay, and that "[he] was in no condition to be merciful."
He overpowered her only because she happened to glance at the departing Jade Shadow.
He struggled. Period. The end. Deal with it and move on.
Truejedi
truth of the matter is, ben and luke took out team of fifteen sith pretty much without breaking a sweat. its fiction, so intepret it however you want i suppose, but i picked up the book dreading the demise of skywalker as we know him, and ended with a smug sense of satisfaction at how easily they killed FIFTEEN sith.
Truth to the matter is, Ben and Luke took out a team of fifteen Sith through manipulation of the environment and deception, not lightsaber prowess. Luke killed three off the bat with blaster shots, Vestara murdered Xal, Ben or Luke pretended to be stunned and one of them butchered Ahri while his back was turned, Luke knocks Vestara unconscious, Luke hits one with a blaster shot as he's escaping the membrane, and kills the other four by hitting the membrane with blaster shots, and finally kills one of the last male Sith with a blaster. How many did he butcher with his saber?
Two.
How many did he duel? Two.
And one of them only died when she literally looked in another direction.
Sorry, TJ. Luke struggled. He performed extremely poorly in the straight up combat scenario. Did he fight intelligently? Sure. But that's pretty much all you can say.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefingtonA god like entity is interesting in the SWU but if the authors are going the way that marvel comic artists going its going be incredibly far fetched(like you know godlike omnipoent undefeateble entities like the phoenix force in marvel being able to defeat anything and be virtually unstoppable).
Something that is possibly [b]VASTLY more powerful than either of them. This being has the ability to be in more than 1 place at 1 time. She manipulates 15 sith while at the same time creating force psychosis for the various Jedi on Coruscant. IF she is a Celestial, it would explain how powerful those beings were millions of years ago. Either way it appears that her powers are limitless.And I agree with EH. Aside from the retarded PIS/CIS in Luke's fights and the Lost Tribe of the Sith being used as cheap and pathetic filler, the storyline with the mind walkers and Abeloth is among the most interested i've ever encountered in regards to Star Wars. [/B]
But i was hoping the entity would be referred to an IT rather than a he or she as it gives an even more sinister and scary feeling.
Originally posted by GideonAnd just why did he perform poorly against these people?
Sorry, TJ. Luke struggled. He performed extremely poorly in the straight up combat scenario. Did he fight intelligently? Sure. But that's pretty much all you can say.
Are these new authors trying to weaken past characters and create their own superbeings that surpass both luke and sidious?
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I got to disagree with Rex and Ms. Marvel, I think (based upon what we know and the possible speculations) that this Abeloth is a breath of fresh air in the eu.(imo) Unless you would rather see another alien invasion, galactic civil war,mandalorian uprising or another sith conflict (as the main villian which they dont appear to be)
id rather see a regular human whose dangerous without a whole bunch of supernatural abilities as a villain. imo gods are boring.
people like greivous thrawn palleon and mara always interested me because of the fact that they werent all powerful. bleh. the entire concept of a "god" goes against star wars anyway imo.
@Gideon
I don't agree with your assessment of luke in the last fight and to be honest I before i opened this thread i knew i wouldn't agree with your interpretation of luke. But that's alright we all view things differently. So here is my 2 cents as to why luke wasn't uber.
you said yoda dooku and palpatine used the force to enhance their bodies to fight and that with luke doing it he should have beaten these sith easy well easier than he did. Seriously Luke was out of his body for more than a week if anything given how the author wrote how much time had passed it had been about 2 weeks. but 1 week for sure,
BUT here is the thing you are overlooking ben said flat out while they were beyond the shadows on the lake that they need to go back because Luke's body was almost dead as in by the time luke got back to his body he hadn't eatin a while and wasn't very hydrated not to mention he was technically on his death bed due to dehydration and lack of food.
so i'd say that even with luke using the force to get "stronger by the second" and doing as good as he did in that fight is perfectly spot on. I don't think luke was as bad as you make him out to be in this fight.
and then the only thing i noticed that troy messed up on was he said luke was in a trash compactor of a star destroyer when I'm pretty sure he meant the death star.
my favorite part of the book was Bazel or whatever his name is bashing that mandalorian against the wall repeatedly killing.
I hate how mandalorians keep finding their way into these books.
the lake was pretty cool, after anakin solo appeared I was hoping for some yoda, obi, anakin skywalker, or palpatine to appear and speak with the them.
and my last thought on this book is Abelothe. She is wickedly crazy I like how they tied her into the story going as far back as the NJO series with ben, all the jedi goin crazy finally makes sense, I like how Troy wrote her character, and I hope we get to know how she become so powerful. Honestly I'm hoping Gideons theory#1 is correct.
Originally posted by Gideon
Chances are that you're not going to like how this discussion goes, TJ.
The point is to make it a discussion though. not an argument. There are no absolutes in fiction Gideon. I've never minded discussing something.
No.
You know what was "freaking 4 on 1"? Palpatine vs. the Jedi in Revenge of the Sith. The four Sith agents towards the end had no idea Luke would be on the other end of the exit panel: "The exit panel opened. Luke found himself standing faceplate-to-faceplate with four surprised enemies."
Yes, the Jedi were obviously more prepared for sidious. I'll give you that. it was MORE impressive than this. But Luke could feel the four sith through the door. he knew they were there. Why didn't they know he was there? Because he cloaked himself. In other words, he used the force to gain an advantage in what would have been otherwise a much more fair 4 on 1. those 2 deaths in the beginning are testament to skywalker's superior ability with the force, and cannot be completely discredited as happenstance. Then Luke shot 3 blaster shots and THEN killed one with a lightsaber before either could react. That is the speed rush part. Not as impressive as sidious, but the same concept. The first one i can see going down, but why hadn't the other moved, unless it was because Luke was moving too fast for him to react?
Don't compare this situation with Sidious's predicament. Sidious fought four highly trained Jedi Masters in single combat when both parties were fully aware of the other's presence and the Jedi had the advantage of being in combat stance with weapons drawn and ignited. These Sith? Taken totally off guard.Faulty analogy and I would highly advise you to not go down that road again.
just referred to that, not as impressive as sidious, but the same concept, and the only reason they weren't ready is because luke was shielding himself in the force. He gave himself that advantage. it wasn't luck.
If that were the case, he wouldn't have bothered retaliating or blocking. Oh, wait. He does both.
he blocks her lightsaber. "Luke dropped his blaster pistol to wield his lightsaber with both hands, blocking left, and parrying right."
His counter strike was at her knees and throat respectively. Knees to knock someone off balance, and throat for... whatever reason.
Besides the sentece about neither taking damage comes AFTER the part about where he defends himself.
He's hurled into the lift wall by Rhea,
takes two blows to the chest from the parang from Vestara, another from Rhea,
Gideon, he took one attack that wounded him. "But the slash that actually wounded Luke, that cut through his suit ..." That paragraph. The only attack that actually hurt him in the entire fight. You act like getting his suit cut up is the end of the world.
received pummelling from Rhea,
addressed
muses that Rhea "fought like a shenbit, never letting up, never hesitating, never pausing" and that "it was all [he] could do to stay between Rhea and the wall, using her as a shield" to keep Vestara at bay, and that "[he] was in no condition to be merciful."
First, if Rhea fought like a shenbit (and does anyone actually know what that is?) Isn't that a testament to her skill, and not a knock on luke?
second, that sentence actually goes more like this:
"It was all Luke cuold do to stay between her and the wall,, and he used the Force to keep her trapped in front of him, using her like a shield to keep the girl from slipping around to attack his flanks. "
I don't know how you interpreted that, but i was quite impressed with Both luke's tactics, AND ability to forcibly keep Lady Rhea exactly where he wanted her. He was in command of this fight.
He overpowered her only because she happened to glance at the departing Jade Shadow.
That whole sentence is true except the word only and the word only in that sentence is speculation.
He struggled. Period. The end. Deal with it and move on.
I respect your opinion and interpretation of that, but to the extent of undoing Luke as a combatant, my interpretation of the same source material is that he didn't struggle perhaps as much as you would have liked for him to have.
Truth to the matter is, Ben and Luke took out a team of fifteen Sith through manipulation of the environment and deception, not lightsaber prowess.
I was still impressed. Especially the ease with which they seemed to do it.
Luke killed three off the bat with blaster shots, Vestara murdered Xal, Ben or Luke pretended to be stunned and one of them butchered Ahri while his back was turned, Luke knocks Vestara unconscious, Luke hits one with a blaster shot as he's escaping the membrane, and kills the other four by hitting the membrane with blaster shots, and finally kills one of the last male Sith with a blaster. How many did he butcher with his saber?Two.
As i said, that doesn't make the skywalker's victory less impressive. 15 to 2 man! 14 if you want to take Xal out of it, but Xal still attacked the Jedi, so i think you have to include him.
How many did he duel? Two.
granted
And one of them only died when she literally looked in another direction.
here, the word only does work as fact.
Sorry, TJ. Luke struggled. He performed extremely poorly in the straight up combat scenario. Did he fight intelligently? Sure. But that's pretty much all you can say.
i guess that depends on what you are expecting out of him i guess. I mean, if you want him to dominate to the extent that he comes through each and every fight unscathed and unhurt, then i guess he did struggle.
I don't really expect that. I thought he did just fine in all honesty.
Anyway, it was a far cry from what i was expecting after reading your initial post yesterday.
One other thought: So where does this leave Rhea on our combat scale? If we want to consider her fight with luke as the one indicating factor, she shoots right up there, doesn't she? Also, considering she is now dead, we are unlikely ever to get anymore feats of hers to contradict this.
oh, and completely unrelated thoughts on the book, which i loved.
The Abeloth this is amazing, best star wars villian in awhile. Notice that it was the reason for the clone wars in the first place? (Jedi suposed to return some prisoners or what-not, never did?) You talk about a plot-twist. (and that makes it even more likely to be tied to Sidious, imho.)
Han Solo is bad a. The part where he is escaping with Allana was so classic. Loved it.
I'm glad Tahiri was arrested. Following orders hardly counts when everyone knows your boss is a sith.
Jag is hardly acting like a leader. He is reminding me of Anakin from AOTC, and i want him to stop it, and go get control of the Empire.
Oh, and it was actually really sad what happened to the Tremains.
Originally posted by Ms.MarvelWell a "god" in star wars would be more interesting if it was an "IT" and not a "she".
id rather see a regular human whose dangerous without a whole bunch of supernatural abilities as a villain. imo gods are boring.people like greivous thrawn palleon and mara always interested me because of the fact that they werent all powerful. bleh. the entire concept of a "god" goes against star wars anyway imo.
But i presume you think a concept of a god is boring in star wars due to the overpowered "gods" in marvel(TOAA, phoenix, LT etc etc)
Gideon. Luke was extremely weak and sustaining himself with the force was all he could do from falling over.
Furthermore, he was losing oxygen in the vac suit when it was cut. There are enough circumstances not to claim Luke sucks.
@Wolverine
I would compare Abeloth to the Fallen, if Gideon's theory holds water and I think it does. She was cast out by the Celestials and imprisoned.
Fallen? You mean the fallen in transformers 2?
Well interestingly enough, this time the possible main villain is a cosmic entity rather than the repetitive sith/mandalorian/alien invasion story arc.
I am convinced to buy the FOTJ books(abyss at least) seeing that i had absolutely no interest in LOTF.
BTW what do you think this entity is capable of doing? And how do you think it will be stopped?
And is this being really a celestial or is that just a theory? I have a feeling this being would probably be more presence than flesh just like how galactus was portrayed in the last FF movie.
Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Well a "god" in star wars would be more interesting if it was an "IT" and not a "she".But i presume you think a concept of a god is boring in star wars due to the overpowered "gods" in marvel(TOAA, phoenix, LT etc etc)
i just feel that starwars is a sci-fi realm where omni-beings shouldnt really exist. in the movies the force is there but it almost always takes a back seat to more grounded technological aspects. the supernatural aspect has always been subtle. so... yeah bringing along some all-powerful transient god just wrecks the atmosphere. i mean its all imo but the reason why i got into star wars in the first place is because i like the large scale battles and galaxy wide skirmishes and all the shnazzy mega-technological machinations.
if i had to create a new villain id want it to be someone whose powerful because of their mind. not necessarily a tactician like thrawn but a genius inventor or something... maybe create a badass suit that gives him a 1 up on everyone else. thats a little campy though sounds like a comic book.
Again, in part I agree with Gideon. Luke didn't perform as well as he should have. He should have wiped the floor with these so called sith without trouble. However, he mind walked for 3 weeks and was described as ridiculously weak, with support from the force being the only thing keeping him on his feet. Then his vac suit was torn and he was losing oxygen as he was fighting.
Darth Sexy
Again, in part I agree with Gideon. Luke didn't perform as well as he should have. He should have wiped the floor with these so called sith without trouble.
+1.
He fought intelligently, which is a plus, but he did not (as truejedi would like to think) walk in and beat the hell out of fifteen Sith for lulz.
Darth Sexy
However, he mind walked for 3 weeks and was described as ridiculously weak,
He used the Force to enliven atrophied muscles and awaken dead synapses. He also told Ben he was feeling better by the second. Lastly, not once is his physical condition mentioned by either Luke or the narrator as the cause for his poor performance against Lady Rhea and Vestara.
Darth Sexy
with support from the force being the only thing keeping him on his feet. Then his vac suit was torn and he was losing oxygen as he was fighting.
His vac suit was torn because... he wasn't doing that well against Rhea.
Originally posted by Gideon
+1.He fought intelligently, which is a plus, but he did not (as truejedi would like to think) walk in and beat the hell out of fifteen Sith for lulz.
He used the Force to enliven atrophied muscles and awaken dead synapses. He also told Ben he was feeling better by the second. Lastly, not once is his physical condition mentioned by either Luke or the narrator as the cause for his poor performance against Lady Rhea and Vestara.
His vac suit was torn because... he wasn't doing that well against Rhea.
I'll have to reread the whole fight scene because as I recall, his weakness was constantly mentioned through the fight scenes.
I agree totally with Gideon. He was on the defensivive, but offensively fighting too. That is a basic military tactic, but back to the point. Ben and Luke took negated their ability [the Sith strike team] as a strike team because they diminished their numbers quickly. If Xal was killed, then Luke & Ben probably would have been overrun. Vestara was no match for Luke alone - Lady Rhea was the real power house. It's gonna be awhile IMO before SW kills Luke. The other characters maybe, but not Luke.
Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
not to mention he was almost dead before him and ben went back to their bodies...........
Really?
Palpatine was even closer to death than Luke in Empire's End and yet he managed to instakill one Jedi, mortally wound another, and disable Leia before getting shot in the back by Han. And each of these with a single Force attack.
Your contention from day one is that Luke is not only a better combatant, but is more powerful, than Palpatine. The very best, the greatest, et cetera. Luke's victory came through manipulation of the environment, deception, and pure luck.
Smart fighting? Sure. But "lawl uber l33t combat skillzz"?
Hardly.
Luke is the finest lightsaber artist of the modern era. However, it seemed to me that the strike team was using an Ancient Form. Not only was Luke tired, but maybe the books omited that he was unfamilar with Sith forms [lightsaber].
However, the Sith weren't expecting someone of Luke's power. They completely underestimated him. If they do manage to kill him, how will they fare against say Kyp?