I don't know why it's a big deal for some that Luke should be untouchable. The way I see it, Luke is quite fallible. The way the Jedi have handled things since the formation of the New Republic is proof of this.
If beings like Yoda who had 900 years of familiarity with all aspects of the light side of the force can be fallible, why not Luke?
Allankles
I don't know why it's a big deal for some that Luke should be untouchable. The way I see it, Luke is quite fallible. The way the Jedi have handled things since the formation of the New Republic is proof of this.If beings like Yoda who had 900 years of familiarity with all aspects of the light side of the force can be fallible, why not Luke?
I'm delighted that you mention this, because I very nearly forgot. Let's discuss Luke Skywalker and his fallibility.
The movies have made it abundantly clear that the Force was extremely powerful within Luke; it's vague as to whether or not his connection to it was as potent as his father's, but the fact remains that he when he reached his full potential, he would be, at the very least, more powerful than the Emperor. If any of you have bothered to read the pain-in-the-ass essay I wrote on Palpatine, you'd understand that to be more powerful than the Emperor is something that is truly remarkable. Prodigious. In fact, there really are very few words for it.
As of Outcast, Luke is roughly sixty years old. That would make him a little younger than Palpatine circa Revenge of the Sith. Now, I realize that due to the various purges and Palpatine's pettiness towards other Force users that Luke has relatively very little to work with in the way of Force knowledge; he's had to go seek what little he does know out, since Palpatine consumed and destroyed most of the repositories of Jedi knowledge. So while we can conclude that Skywalker's mastery of the Force isn't as deep as say, Yoda's, it is pretty wide given conditions.
So I can accept the fact that his mastery of the Force is not as refined as the Emperor's or Yoda's simply because of his circumstances in lieu of awesome Force-related information.
The problem is combat. As a practical matter, Luke Skywalker has been in more fights to the death than pretty much anyone we've seen in the mythos bar Vader. His refinement and skill with the lightsaber and practical Force applications relative to combat should be peerless. And when I say peerless, I mean it. At this point, there should be no one who could stand up to Luke Skywalker in a straight up engagement and last longer than he feels is necessary.
No one.
Now, does that mean he's infallible, or that he should be? Hardly. We're not even suggesting that he be infallible in combat; just better than everyone else. The fact of the matter is that Skywalker is a man shackled by morality and naivete. That is why, for the most part, Lumiya's performance against him in Legacy of the Force is acceptable. She manipulated the environment, fought by proxy, distracted and deceived. Skywalker had to spend precious Force energy trying to save lives because she preferred not to fight him directly.
So had the Sith in this scenario been the ones to use the environment, to attack by proxy, deception, and misdirection, it would have been understandable. Because that is how a successful Sith fights. He or she "cheats." Furthermore, if we extend the scenario beyond combat and more or less a campaign, there are plenty of scenarios for a lesser opponent to overcome a superior one.
Take Palpatine versus Windu as an example. He lost the fight but won the war; Windu outmatched him in lightsaber combat, but the outcome was Windu's death because Palpatine manipulated Anakin. Luke isn't stupid, but he's far from genius-level. It's more believable that he's outwitted on a regular basis than outfought.
Plenty of options that LFL is apparently too retarded to take. Luke is (and should be) far from infallible. But when it comes to a straight up duel? No one, at this point, should come close.
In his timeframe, anyway.
Originally posted by Gideon
Really?Palpatine was even closer to death than Luke in Empire's End and yet he managed to instakill one Jedi, mortally wound another, and disable Leia before getting shot in the back by Han. And each of these with a single Force attack.
Your contention from day one is that Luke is not only a better combatant, but is more powerful, than Palpatine. The very best, the greatest, et cetera. Luke's victory came through manipulation of the environment, deception, and pure luck.
Smart fighting? Sure. But "lawl uber l33t combat skillzz"?
Hardly.
prove that palatine was even closer to death than luke was.
in abyss he had gone 1-3weeks ish give or take a week outside of his body of that time his muscles were atrophying he wasn'y staying hydrated or getting food since the mindwalkers were tryin to make sure of that.
my biggest point is ben stating how they need to hurry up and get back because luke is almost dead, more than likely from starvation and dehydration. Luke is 62 in this book. take a 62 year old body deprive it from nutrition, hydration, and throw in how weak his muscles would be from not moving for 1-3 weeks and place him directly into a fight with 15 sith and i'd say he performed just how he should.
I think he should be struggling in a fight where half way through he decides to try and capture a sith assailant. And luke is fallible which he should be.
IMO, which i believe is backed up by the book as well, Luke performed just as he should. near death but he stills manages just fine.
from your posts you said that yoda dooku and palpatine have all used the force to boost their old bodies BUT not one of them has done that after 3 weeks of starvation, dehydration, and muscle atrophy.
also I can't remember anywhere in the fight that Luke was even close to mortal danger in this fight.
and i do agree with your last poat luke should be peerless BUT that's up to the authors NOT the character.
Originally posted by Gideon
Really?Palpatine was even closer to death than Luke in Empire's End and yet he managed to instakill one Jedi, mortally wound another, and disable Leia before getting shot in the back by Han. And each of these with a single Force attack.
Your contention from day one is that Luke is not only a better combatant, but is more powerful, than Palpatine. The very best, the greatest, et cetera. Luke's victory came through manipulation of the environment, deception, and pure luck.
Smart fighting? Sure. But "lawl uber l33t combat skillzz"?
Hardly.
As a sith, Palpatine used an offensive maneuver. Are you suggesting Luke should have done the same thing as a Jedi with his morals?
xxxpoppunker182
prove that palatine was even closer to death than luke was.
Easily.
Empire's End shows Palpatine's personal physician and dark side adepts telling him, point blank, that he brings himself closer to death with each further usage of the Force and when he gives himself to strong emotion. That's why the adepts attempt to disable the Jedi when they intercept Palpatine making his bid to abduct Anakin.
That's a far greater level of physical weakness than Luke, who was able to use the Force to compensate for his weakened body.
Now stop making excuses.
Poppunker
in abyss he had gone 1-3weeks ish give or take a week outside of his body of that time his muscles were atrophying he wasn'y staying hydrated or getting food since the mindwalkers were tryin to make sure of that.
Gideon
Now stopmaking excusespointing out the obvious.
Poppunker
my biggest point is ben stating how they need to hurry up and get back because luke is almost [B]dead, more than likely from starvation and dehydration. Luke is 62 in this book. take a 62 year old body deprive it from nutrition, hydration, and throw in how weak his muscles would be from not moving for 1-3 weeks and place him directly into a fight with 15 sith and i'd say he performed just how he should.[/B]
Luke has an attunement to the Force that is without peer, with the exception of Anakin Skywalker. Count Dooku demonstrated the ability to strengthen his frail body to the point of taking on a man with unlimited Force reserves and the great Obi-Wan Kenobi on a whim; Jedi Master I-Get-Winded-Reaching-For-My-Cane Yoda is able to use the Force to strengthen his body to keep up with the aforementioned Count Dooku at a time when Dooku's prodigious powers were being enhanced to an even greater level by the dark side properties of the planet Vjun; Darth Sidious, whose body was failing him as a result of the dark side energies within him, was able to use the Force to strengthen his body to compete with the aforementioned Yoda, blitz four "celebrated swordsmen" when they were prepared, and instakill two Jedi capable of outdueling his dark side adepts at such a time when he was literally on the brink of death.
...And you're telling me that Luke, whom you consider to be more powerful than all the above by a considerable degree, can't do the same against no-name Sith?
Either he's not as powerful as you make him out to be or... well, that seems like the only valid option.
Poppunker
I think he should be struggling in a fight where half way through he decides to try and capture a sith assailant. And luke is fallible which he should be.
Please. He wasn't dueling Vestara; she stumbled into him, he allowed her to cut him, and he punched her out. That was when he wanted to take Vestara prisoner. Lady Rhea was the one who gave him hell, and he "was in no condition to be merciful."
Try again.
Poppunker
IMO, which i believe is backed up by the book as well, Luke performed just as he should. near death but he stills manages just fine.
Yoda, Dooku, and Sidious all did better.
from your posts you said that yoda dooku and palpatine have all used the force to boost their old bodies BUT not one of them has done that after 3 weeks of starvation, dehydration, and muscle atrophy.
You're right. One of them did it as an octogenarian aristo who, prior to that, was on the verge of Force exhaustion, losing vision (among other things). This, again, versus two powerful Jedi -- one of whom was the beneficiary of unlimited Force reserves. The other did it as a diminutive Jedi of nine centuries whose primary mode of transportation was a hover chair, to demonstrate his lack of natural mobility and stamina. And the last did it despite the fact that he was in a natural state of near death due to the nature of the dark side within him.
Poppunker
also I can't remember anywhere in the fight that Luke was even close to mortal danger in this fight.
Great. Now tell me where Rhea was, since Luke clearly owned her.
Poppunker
and i do agree with your last poat luke should be peerless BUT that's up to the authors NOT the character.
Obviously. But this isn't the first time Luke has performed subpar. The truth is that he's not nearly as good as you say he is.
see, i have no problem with luke being fallible. I guess i was expecting a fight where luke ONLY WAS ABLE TO WIN because of circumstances beyond his control, but after reading it, it was still obvious that he won this fight because of his own abilities. his life wasn't truly threatened throughout either. basically i don't see what the big deal is. luke won, and it wasn't really that close, plus we can't really judge how powerful rhea and vestera are yet anyway, so what's the big deal really?
Gideon, if i do say, i think you actually have a higher opinion of luke than i do, if you expect him to be infallible.
I was having a discussion with Gideon about this, and I truly feel that Luke did the galaxy a great disservice by killing Palpatine. With the Empire in tact and at full strength, none of the crap we saw post ROTJ would have happened because Palpatine WOULDN'T have allowed it. So once again, you defeat a necessary evil to fight greater evils in the next 40 years. Nice going Luke.
Originally posted by Gideon
Easily.Empire's End shows Palpatine's personal physician and dark side adepts telling him, point blank, that he brings himself closer to death with each further usage of the Force and when he gives himself to strong emotion. That's why the adepts attempt to disable the Jedi when they intercept Palpatine making his bid to abduct Anakin.
That's a far greater level of physical weakness than Luke, who was able to use the Force to compensate for his weakened body.
Now stop making excuses.
Luke has an attunement to the Force that is without peer, with the exception of Anakin Skywalker. Count Dooku demonstrated the ability to strengthen his frail body to the point of taking on a man with unlimited Force reserves and the great Obi-Wan Kenobi on a whim; Jedi Master I-Get-Winded-Reaching-For-My-Cane Yoda is able to use the Force to strengthen his body to keep up with the aforementioned Count Dooku at a time when Dooku's prodigious powers were being enhanced to an even greater level by the dark side properties of the planet Vjun; Darth Sidious, whose body was failing him as a result of the dark side energies within him, was able to use the Force to strengthen his body to compete with the aforementioned Yoda, blitz four "celebrated swordsmen" when they were prepared, and instakill two Jedi capable of outdueling his dark side adepts at such a time when he was literally on the brink of death.
...And you're telling me that Luke, whom you consider to be more powerful than all the above by a considerable degree, can't do the same against no-name Sith?
Either he's not as powerful as you make him out to be or... well, that seems like the only valid option.
Please. He wasn't dueling Vestara; she stumbled into him, he allowed her to cut him, and he punched her out. That was when he wanted to take Vestara prisoner. Lady Rhea was the one who gave him hell, and he "was in no condition to be merciful."
Try again.
Yoda, Dooku, and Sidious all did better.
You're right. One of them did it as an octogenarian aristo who, prior to that, was on the verge of Force exhaustion, losing vision (among other things). This, again, versus two powerful Jedi -- one of whom was the beneficiary of unlimited Force reserves. The other did it as a diminutive Jedi of nine centuries whose primary mode of transportation was a hover chair, to demonstrate his lack of natural mobility and stamina. And the last did it despite the fact that he was in a natural state of near death due to the nature of the dark side within him.
Great. Now tell me where Rhea was, since Luke clearly owned her.
Obviously. But this isn't the first time Luke has performed subpar. The truth is that he's not nearly as good as you say he is.
Once again Gideon, you may be misinterpreting the effects of Mind Walking as it is a relatively unknown technique. We're not aware of how it really affects the force user, we just know that Luke was completely drained.
Originally posted by truejedi
see, i have no problem with luke being fallible. I guess i was expecting a fight where luke ONLY WAS ABLE TO WIN because of circumstances beyond his control, but after reading it, it was still obvious that he won this fight because of his own abilities. his life wasn't truly threatened throughout either. basically i don't see what the big deal is. luke won, and it wasn't really that close, plus we can't really judge how powerful rhea and vestera are yet anyway, so what's the big deal really?Gideon, if i do say, i think you actually have a higher opinion of luke than i do, if you expect him to be infallible.
I agree with Gideon. He should be peerless in lightsaber combat. At the same time, he should be even more infallible when it comes to the force, seeing as his connection to the force is unparalleled. If he was able to manipulate black holes, there's no reason he can't own a pair of no name sith.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I agree with Gideon. He should be peerless in lightsaber combat. At the same time, he should be even more infallible when it comes to the force, seeing as his connection to the force is unparalleled. If he was able to manipulate black holes, there's no reason he can't own a pair of no name sith.
so are you saying PIS, or inconsistent writing? I generally like to see a character as they are portrayed, not as they [i]should[/](in my mind) be.
Darth Sexy
As a sith, Palpatine used an offensive maneuver. Are you suggesting Luke should have done the same thing as a Jedi with his morals?
You're using dodging/reaching tactics that would make Janus blush, DS. But I'll play, just this final time:
"Had Xal shown his apprentice the courtesy of dying in silence, Vestara might have been able to save her friend Ahri. But the Master bellowed his surprise and anguish like the coward he was. And that drew Ahri's attention away from the unconscious Skywalker he was preparing to restrain.
In the next second a lightsaber sizzled to life, and Ahri came apart along the length of the spine." (pg. 302)
Skywalker (or Ben) butchered a distracted opponent after playing dead. No duel.
- He shoots several Sith and blows up a membrane that sends them hurtling to brutal deaths. No duel.
- He uses the Force to break a Sith's arm in an exit hatch. No duel.
- He puts blaster shots into one Sith male and skewers the other one when they were surprised. No duel.
"But even that tiny slip was too much in such a vicious combat, and Luke was in no condition to be merciful." He proceeds to dismember a distracted Rhea. (pg. 311)
All that Jedi nobility flies out the window when Luke's life is on the line. He fights as brutal as he needs to.
Darth Sexy
Once again Gideon, you may be misinterpreting the effects of Mind Walking as it is a relatively unknown technique. We're not aware of how it really affects the force user, we just know that Luke was completely drained.
I'm arguing the effects that the narration specifically noted. Rather like Andeddu's supposed weakness, unless you have something that is specifically noted within the confines of the novel, you've got nothing.
To TJ, Poppunker, and DS... one final time...
Stop reaching.
Originally posted by Gideon
You're using dodging/reaching tactics that would make Janus blush, DS. But I'll play, just this final time:"Had Xal shown his apprentice the courtesy of dying in silence, Vestara might have been able to save her friend Ahri. But the Master bellowed his surprise and anguish like the coward he was. And that drew Ahri's attention away from the unconscious Skywalker he was preparing to restrain.
In the next second a lightsaber sizzled to life, and Ahri came apart along the length of the spine." (pg. 302)
Skywalker (or Ben) butchered a distracted opponent after playing dead. No duel.
- He shoots several Sith and blows up a membrane that sends them hurtling to brutal deaths. No duel.
- He uses the Force to break a Sith's arm in an exit hatch. No duel.
- He puts blaster shots into one Sith male and skewers the other one when they were surprised. No duel.
"But even that tiny slip was too much in such a vicious combat, and Luke was in no condition to be merciful." He proceeds to dismember a distracted Rhea. (pg. 311)
All that Jedi nobility flies out the window when Luke's life is on the line. He fights as brutal as he needs to.
I'm arguing the effects that the narration specifically noted. Rather like Andeddu's supposed weakness, unless you have something that is specifically noted within the confines of the novel, you've got nothing.
To TJ, Poppunker, and DS... one final time...
Stop reaching.
I still think you are expecting more of Luke than i did. Especially since we don't know the relative power level or Rhea or Vestera (or any of them for that matter)
"He was sustaining himself ONLY through the strength of the force. It was pouring into him from all sides, filling him with a blazing furnace of pain, devouring him even as it empowered him, burning him alive even as it saved him."
^Explains how Luke was feeling.
" Luke would have ilked to think he had never been quiet this tired to believe he would never again find himself in circumstances quite this desperate. But the truth was, he had been here many times before- in the wampa cave on Hoth, during the Battle of Mindor, on the approach to Qoribu in the Gyuel system in the Unknown Regions. And Luke had no doubt that he would be here many times again. In the years and the decades to come, there would be a hundred occasions when he thought he was dying and a dozen times others had believed he already died."
^This explains how Luke understood that the outcome of this fight was never really in doubt.
And in regards to "Luke was in no condition to be merciful", it was concerning whether or not Luke would make the killing blow when Rhea was distracted.
Originally posted by Gideon
😐I hate to break it to you, but all evidence here points...
Spoiler:
to the contrary
What evidence? So we ignore the fact that Luke can manipulate black holes or fight Jacen and Palpatine ferociously, but we have to accept the fact that he can hardly defeat Lumiya or Rhea? Yea, PIS/CIS
Originally posted by truejedi
guys... The one example that brings luke down is lumiya. We don't know Rhea's level. Right now we have to put her on par with Caedus in lightsabar ability. (The ability to stay with luke, which is Caedus's main claim to fame)
Or we can tie it to PIS/CIS and say that Caedus would have wtfpwned Rhea and Vestara.