Originally posted by ScreamPaste
so your argument is that because being a massive douchebag is popular in gaming characters, the bar is set low enogh what should be evil is neutral? I'm sorry, but Kratos is simply a total bastard. Makes him a good anti-hero, but he's still evil. 😐
In the case of the aforementioned character archetypes, yes. No one's denying that Kratos is a bastard, but everything you're saying is just proof of being unable to realize that not everything in popular culture is as black and white with it's sense of good and evil as Legend of Zelda, because God of War, as everything else in Greek Mythology, is about vying for power and seeing one's own visions through based on a matter of perspective, not blatant right and wrong. Kratos does what he does to achieve his own goals, it just so happens that they tend to involve the need to kill others. The only time he was close to it was when he was a servant to Ares. What differentiates him from being evil is the fact that he's aware of and worked to redeem himself of the darkest parts of his past. With the latest upcoming installment, the main motive is revenge based on the cumulative events in his life based on his-guessed it-perspective.
That's not evil.
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Scorpion mostly follows evil orders from what I know, Alex Mercer is a douchebag and Vegeta actually did good things while being aggressive.Does Kratos do any good outside of acting for himself?
For his OWN benefit, common amongst antiheroes, but not for the sake of malevolent intentions ala Ganon. Mercer, no arguments from me, but like I said, it took Vegeta the whole series to just begin getting over his arrogant denial streak, because in at least one or two situations I can think of, matters got worse because of his idiotic hubirs.
At least twice. More than enough times to deviate from outright villainy.
is about vying for power and seeing one's own visionsIE, selfish.
With the latest upcoming installment, the main motive is revenge based on the cumulative events in his life based on his-guessed it-perspective.Revenge isn't a good deed to counter balance his evil....
For his OWN benefit, common amongst antiheroes,IE, selfish. This would generally equal neutral, but if you factor in the means to this end, it becomes a very obvious evil.
I'm not basing this on LoZ, either, this is a pretty simple concept, regardless of his views, a man who does X for Y, where Y is a reward or benefit, and X is a horrible act, is doing evil. Anti-hero =/= non-evil, just non-villain.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
IE, selfish.
But not evil.
Revenge isn't a good deed to counter balance his evil....
Yes it is. Quite frankly so in fact. It's not a particularly good deed, but his intentions aren't done so out of a sense of malevolence.
IE, selfish. This would generally equal neutral, but if you factor in the means to this end, it becomes a very obvious evil.[quote]The means to this end don't mean jackshi*t. Like I said, it just so happens to call for more brutally killing the opposition.
[quote]I'm not basing this on LoZ, either, this is a pretty simple concept, regardless of his views, a man who does X for Y, where Y is a reward or benefit, and X is a horrible act, is doing evil. Anti-hero =/= non-evil, just non-villain.[/B]
Intentions mean everything, so no matter the horror of X, one can do so out of different intentions, and is only evil if the intentions are as amoral as their actions. Only the latter is amoral for Kratos, his intentions within are simply to move forward to his ultimate goal, which was only ever either redemption or revenge. His actions, no matter how horrific, are ultimately what helps for the perceived greater good of the series. The only time he was ever close to being evil, he came to realize what he was doing.
Intentions mean everything, so no matter the horror of X, one can do so out of different intentions, and is only evil if the intentions are as amoral as their actions.This line right here is entirely, 100% inaccurate. Hitler didn't think he was doing wrong, does that make him non-evil, too? His 'views' didn't deem himself as evil.
The problem here is monolithic evil doesn't exist. Evil isn't evil for the sake of it. People steal to feed their families, and sometimes they have to kill the guy running the store to achieve that.
Kratos is evil.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
This line right here is entirely, 100% inaccurate. Hitler didn't think he was doing wrong, does that make him non-evil, too? His 'views' didn't deem himself as evil.The problem here is monolithic evil doesn't exist. Evil isn't evil for the sake of it. People steal to feed their families, and sometimes they have to kill the guy running the store to achieve that.
Kratos is evil.
First of all, it has virtually nothing to do with whether Kratos thinks what he's doing is wrong or not, because the mass genocide of numerous mythological creatures that Kratos brought about wasn't just for the sake of it. Trying to stress a real-world "candy from a baby" logic into a fantasy setting based around mythical aspects that involve perspective doesn't work. Even your second paragraph's example speaks more for a sense of desperation than anything else. It doesn't take an evil person to do bad deeds. Kratos needless to say is not a good-hearted person, true, nor is he against doing violent deeds. But the thing is that based on plot, what he did was never out of who he was, he never does his for the sake of being an rage-driven killer.
So no, he's not.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
He doesn't have to do it for the sake of being a rage driven killer, he still does it.So, yeah, he's evil. Ends do not justify means.
Edit: motive doesn't matter that much either.
And in most cases, that's actually not why Kratos does what he does. He's done it all for either revenge, redemption, absolution, etc., none of which are of malevolent nature, not even revenge-which is often among personal matters in Kratos' case.
Motive makes all the difference, and none of Kratos' motives are of evil intentions, just primarily self-centered ones. He's just as capable of saving someone if it's beneficial to him as he is killing someone if that person poses some kind of opposition. Take, say, Afro Samurai for example (and I'm not just using this reference just because Afro's old teacher was voiced by the same guy who voices Kratos). This man, even in his childhood, was hell bent on avenging his father in the same manner as Kratos was hell bent on avenging his wife and daughter. Now we're given a damn good insight on what it was that brought them to where they are, and just how they bring themselves closer to their goals: through endless bloodshed, such to the point that they ultimately can't take any of it back. Now, the distinction is basically that Afro had to practically cast away his emotions to stomach the life as such (thus, Ninja Ninja was created), whereas Kratos was brought into serving the Gods through realizing that his old master Ares was trying to make him his own tool of destruction.
The point I'm getting at is that God of War and Afro Samurai delve too much into individual perspectives of the characters to truly conclude that there's really black and white in either series. Ares was the closest thing to "Hitler-esque" in GoW, and in his perspective, he thought he was helping Kratos to become a great warrior. If anyone in GoW is evil, it's Ares: he betrayed the trust and loyalty of Kratos, deceived him into killing his wife and daughter, all for the sake of making sure nothing else got in the way of his new servant