Originally posted by jasofisc
Not really sure how the doc's powers work but from what i've read if phoenix will take his i haven't seen anything to put him on phonix's power level of moveing moons and surviving planatary explositions.i could be wrong
Ironically, I know very little about current Rachel. Too little to form an educated opinion here. Alas.
In my experience, and this is without knowing much about current Rachel, the Phoenix Force is everything people crack it up to be, among the abstracts and whatnot. But Phoenix avatars, Jean, Rachel, what have you, are vulnerable to various attacks.
So I realize that the Doctor isn't on par with the Phoenix Force itself. If Rachel has gone deus ex at some point with her power and displayed the full PF, this is a curbstomp for her. But, to be perfectly honest, most incarnations of phoenix avatars would bite it hard against Habib. Even sun-eating feats and whatnot aren't beyond Doctor's power. The avatar would have to go full-out in order to win.
Originally posted by DigiEndsong is an interesting read, and it highlights the differences in Jeans costume being a color coded for your convinence indicator of the different power levels Jean displayed. Green ranging anywhere from Human durability up to cosmic spanning Galactus stalemating levels. the red and yellow indicating a darker desire sun eating type and the white outfit that jean sports as the "telekinetic godhood" rewriting universes power level.
In my experience, and this is without knowing much about current Rachel, the Phoenix Force is everything people crack it up to be, among the abstracts and whatnot. But Phoenix avatars, Jean, Rachel, what have you, are vulnerable to various attacks.So I realize that the Doctor isn't on par with the Phoenix Force itself. If Rachel has gone deus ex at some point with her power and displayed the full PF, this is a curbstomp for her. But, to be perfectly honest, most incarnations of phoenix avatars would bite it hard against Habib. Even sun-eating feats and whatnot aren't beyond Doctor's power. The avatar would have to go full-out in order to win.
If what you say is true the where would you say the doctor fits in versus galactus?
Reading back, at Wildstorm’s Authority. The Doctors also seem to have the same “human” vulnerabilities as the avatars. Seemingly enough, both characters are granted heightened senses, cosmic awareness, and the ability to make use of memories of their previous incarnations. Despite the fact, the application of said Doctor varies, due to his self awareness.
If anything, It would be the Doctor that needs to bring his a game. Because at this point, Rachael has a greater self awareness of what it means to wield the Phoenix Force.
Originally posted by Creshosk
Endsong is an interesting read, and it highlights the differences in Jeans costume being a color coded for your convinence indicator of the different power levels Jean displayed. Green ranging anywhere from Human durability up to cosmic spanning Galactus stalemating levels. the red and yellow indicating a darker desire sun eating type and the white outfit that jean sports as the "telekinetic godhood" rewriting universes power level.If what you say is true the where would you say the doctor fits in versus galactus?
A lot of people have managed to stalemate Galactus for a while. And by stalemate I mean "survive, none the worse for wear." I think the Doctor could manage that for quite some time. But in all but his weakest, most starving versions, he could never harm Big G. I seem to remember Galactus being trapped in another universe one time. Maybe I'm wrong. But if true, a Doctor win via BFR isn't entirely impossible, presuming his "magic" affects Galactus.
But the different durability and power levels are my point exactly. Unleash the full PF, and Doctor is screwed. But I've seen Jean knocked out by far less than what the Doctor could muster. But in a forum battle, that favors Rachel, since we assume peak abilities. So however much of the PF she has brought to bear in her better showings is what Habib would be dealing with. And it's likely too much for him.
Originally posted by id369
Reading back, at Wildstorm’s Authority. The Doctors also seem to have the same “human†vulnerabilities as the avatars. Seemingly enough, both characters are granted heightened senses, cosmic awareness, and the ability to make use of memories of their previous incarnations. Despite the fact, the application of said Doctor varies, due to his self awareness.If anything, It would be the Doctor that needs to bring his a game. Because at this point, Rachael has a greater self awareness of what it means to wield the Phoenix Force.
For the Doctor it's about thought and preparation. He's human in every respect until he thinks it otherwise. Which is why, yes, he's occasionally vulnerable but can perform Sub-Skyfather feats at best. And in a forum battle, speedblitz aside, he could easily be, say, Superman level durability, among many many other things.
Originally posted by DigiIn this case its not a "none the worse for the wear" The phonix avatars when stalemating galactus were completely unharmed. And it was Galactus telling them what the source of their power was and why they had seemingly unlimited while he didn't. This caused them to flee the battle without either killing or rendering Galactus unconscious or anything.
A lot of people have managed to stalemate Galactus for a while. And by stalemate I mean "survive, none the worse for wear." I think the Doctor could manage that for quite some time. But in all but his weakest, most starving versions, he could never harm Big G. I seem to remember Galactus being trapped in another universe one time. Maybe I'm wrong. But if true, a Doctor win via BFR isn't entirely impossible, presuming his "magic" affects Galactus.But the different durability and power levels are my point exactly. Unleash the full PF, and Doctor is screwed. But I've seen Jean knocked out by far less than what the Doctor could muster. But in a forum battle, that favors Rachel, since we assume peak abilities. So however much of the PF she has brought to bear in her better showings is what Habib would be dealing with. And it's likely too much for him.
For the Doctor it's about thought and preparation. He's human in every respect until he thinks it otherwise. Which is why, yes, he's occasionally vulnerable but can perform Sub-Skyfather feats at best. And in a forum battle, speedblitz aside, he could easily be, say, Superman level durability, among many many other things.
Originally posted by DigiFor the Doctor it's about thought and preparation. He's human in every respect until he thinks it otherwise. Which is why, yes, he's occasionally vulnerable but can perform Sub-Skyfather feats at best. And in a forum battle, speedblitz aside, he could easily be, say, Superman level durability, among many many other things.
It’s no different with the avatars including Rachael. These human limitations, are only present because the host limits itself. Otherwise, you would see an avatar regularly perform feats beyond Skyfather.
Here let me show you something, the match take's place in the astral plane against the Shadow King. At the time, the Shadow King is backed by an abstract (I am not sure who).
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/4646/xtf3p01.jpg
You cannot win. The power you wield may be as ancient as the stars…but the life of this corporal incarnation, this avatar has barely begun. At this point in your existence, you are limited in your perception as in your capabilities. - Shadow King
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/3527/xtf3p02.jpg
She knew Jean Grey, of course…Rachel’s mother and original avatar of the primal celestial force…but in those days impressive as he was, Jean manifested only a small portion of her potential.
And Rachel, after she inherited the mantle, was always gun shy…to respectful of her mother’s legacy, too fearful of the terrible risk of losing control.
Now, as the boundaries of reality itself are rent asunder, she finds herself witness to the kind of forces that can reshape creation.
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/5139/xtf3p2627.jpg
Originally posted by id369
It’s no different with the avatars including Rachael. These human limitations, are only present because the host limits itself. Otherwise, you would see an avatar regularly perform feats beyond Skyfather.Here let me show you something, the match take's place in the astral plane against the Shadow King. At the time, the Shadow King is backed by an abstract (I am not sure who).
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/4646/xtf3p01.jpg
You cannot win. The power you wield may be as ancient as the stars…but the life of this corporal incarnation, this avatar has barely begun. At this point in your existence, you are limited in your perception as in your capabilities. - Shadow King
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/3527/xtf3p02.jpg
She knew Jean Grey, of course…Rachel’s mother and original avatar of the primal celestial force…but in those days impressive as he was, Jean manifested only a small portion of her potential.
And Rachel, after she inherited the mantle, was always gun shy…to respectful of her mother’s legacy, too fearful of the terrible risk of losing control.
Now, as the boundaries of reality itself are rent asunder, she finds herself witness to the kind of forces that can reshape creation.
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/5139/xtf3p2627.jpg
Ok, cool. Thanks. I was merely sharing some info about the Doctor though, since throwing around words like cosmic awareness doesn't apply to him in the strictest sense.
But I understand that the PF >>>>> The Doctor. The only question is how much of the PF she has manifested before, which is what we would be able to put her at in a forum battle. And while it's cool that she kinda let loose against the Shadow King there, it didn't really seem like an abstract level feat. You mention that SK was backed by an abstract, but I see no mention of it. The narration talks only about the SK himself.
Originally posted by Creshosk
In this case its not a "none the worse for the wear" The phonix avatars when stalemating galactus were completely unharmed. And it was Galactus telling them what the source of their power was and why they had seemingly unlimited while he didn't. This caused them to flee the battle without either killing or rendering Galactus unconscious or anything.
Interesting. Wasn't that Jean that fought Galactus though? Again, I understand the power of the PF, but if Rachel hasn't been shown displaying Skyfather-ish levels or beyond with it, the potential to lose is certainly there. If she has, this thread is settled quickly.
Originally posted by DigiRachel did it as well.
Ok, cool. Thanks. I was merely sharing some info about the Doctor though, since throwing around words like cosmic awareness doesn't apply to him in the strictest sense.But I understand that the PF >>>>> The Doctor. The only question is how much of the PF she has manifested before, which is what we would be able to put her at in a forum battle. And while it's cool that she kinda let loose against the Shadow King there, it didn't really seem like an abstract level feat. You mention that SK was backed by an abstract, but I see no mention of it. The narration talks only about the SK himself.
Interesting. Wasn't that Jean that fought Galactus though? Again, I understand the power of the PF, but if Rachel hasn't been shown displaying Skyfather-ish levels or beyond with it, the potential to lose is certainly there. If she has, this thread is settled quickly.
Originally posted by Digi
Ok, cool. Thanks. I was merely sharing some info about the Doctor though, since throwing around words like cosmic awareness doesn't apply to him in the strictest sense.But I understand that the PF >>>>> The Doctor. The only question is how much of the PF she has manifested before, which is what we would be able to put her at in a forum battle. And while it's cool that she kinda let loose against the Shadow King there, it didn't really seem like an abstract level feat. You mention that SK was backed by an abstract, but I see no mention of it. The narration talks only about the SK himself.
Near the end of Excalibur, Rachael bonded with the near totality of the Phoenix Force that’s what we are running with. But that’s inconsequential, since how the avatar wields the Phoenix Force seems to hold more weight then how much it can manifest.
I made note of Shadow King being backed by an Abstract, because it’s not stated in the scans I submitted.
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/5827/xtf2p15.jpg
Originally posted by DigiAnd while it's cool that she kinda let loose against the Shadow King there, it didn't really seem like an abstract level feat.
Narration states the boundaries or reality itself a rent asunder. How often do Cosmic confrontation’s, lead to this kind of consequence? Well regardless of the fact, it’s one Rachael’s shining moments I doubt Habib can contest to this energy output.
Originally posted by DigiInteresting. Wasn't that Jean that fought Galactus though? Again, I understand the power of the PF, but if Rachel hasn't been shown displaying Skyfather-ish levels or beyond with it, the potential to lose is certainly there. If she has, this thread is settled quickly.
Well then yeah, if those last scans are Rachel, the Doctor isn't capable of that kind of firepower. Please note, I was never trying to make the case that Doctor can compete with the PF itself, or a competent wielder, just trying to gauge the skill of Rachel with it.
He does have ample control over both matter and time, so he wouldn't go down easy. As I said earlier, he would be able to survive against Galactus for some time, and could even mount some offense, though it wouldn't do him a ton of good in the long term.
What you see in the scans, is Rachael Summers as Phoenix II. I speculate she has become more competent by how her character has grown, and how she handled herself with a vary small fraction of the Phoenix Force.
But really the current Rachel is not needed, because Phoenix II has ample feats to fall back. Enough to contest most high heralds and transcendent calls.
My question is, knowing this can the Doctor contest Phoenix II.
Originally posted by id369
My question is, knowing this can the Doctor contest Phoenix II.
Wish I could tell you. He's a legit Transcendant tier guy, with high level TK, TP, Matter Manip, Time manip, dimension traveling, etc. He's vulnerable to speedblitz in an instantaneous scenario, but give him a moment to form a thought or two and High Heralds are his playthings. With a human avatar, I can't imagine Rachel sweeps this fight every time, but it's also clear that she has a higher upper ceiling. But despite seeing those scans, it's still just a snippet, and I'd hesitate to make any sort of guess without really knowing much about her.
Originally posted by Digi
Wish I could tell you. He's a legit Transcendant tier guy, with high level TK, TP, Matter Manip, Time manip, dimension traveling, etc. He's vulnerable to speedblitz in an instantaneous scenario, but give him a moment to form a thought or two and High Heralds are his playthings. With a human avatar, I can't imagine Rachel sweeps this fight every time, but it's also clear that she has a higher upper ceiling. But despite seeing those scans, it's still just a snippet, and I'd hesitate to make any sort of guess without really knowing much about her.
