Luke, Yoda and Mace Windu vs General Grevious, Ventress and Jango Fett with twist

Here's the thing... I cannot and will not try to argue with any form of canon (once it's been established as canon). I may b!tch about it and not like it, but I wont argue against it. People on here, on the other hand, are completely different. There seems to be an epidemic here th at because someone thinks something, that it's so... and unfortunately, that's just not the case. If I had my way, Vader would pwn all, but that's just not going to happen... ever, and I realize that so I would never argue that point.

I honestly don't know how to take your post... is it a knock towards me or someone else? As I said, "as I remember Luke..."

Originally posted by truejedi
mattatom, its perfectly okay to repeat arguments over and over again without have a fact to back you up, so don't worry about it, no one thinks any less of you.

that is very true, you lack that hint of desperation most revan fanboys show behind their arguments.

And subjekt, the words severely threatened are still under debate.

Luke and ben, despite both of them being dehydrated, and Luke had been unconcious without food or water for 3 weeks, killed a boarding party of 15 Sith. The final two sith managed to wound Luke with ONE cut to the abdomen, after which, he killed the master, and let the apprentice escape so he could track her.

When i read it, considering the shape in which Luke started, i was impressed with the fight, as were some others who read it. However, obviously, others disagreed, which is fine. BUt i thought i'd throw out the other side of that debate so you could have both sides.

Truejedi
And subjekt, the words severely threatened are still under debate

no

Not at all.

Because statements provided by the narration, such as "Luke was in no condition to be merciful" and "it was all Luke could do to use the Force to keep her in front of him" and "[Rhea] pummelled him from throat to thigh[...]" are obvious indicators that Luke was in control of the fight the entire time and could have vanquished them at whim with his command of the Force or peerless lightsaber skills, but that he wanted to show off for Ben.

You're being far too charitable to the opposition, TJ. The whole thing was a charade concocted by Luke to deceive some members of the audience.

Truejedi
Luke and ben, despite both of them being dehydrated, and Luke had been unconcious without food or water for 3 weeks,

My esteemed colleague forgot to add that Luke was able to use the Force to temporarily alter the effect of his atrophied muscles, telling Ben that he was "feeling better by the second."

Truejedi
killed a boarding party of 15 Sith.

Tarkin blew up a planet, Sidious destroyed ten thousand Jedi and a Republic.

My esteemed colleague accidentally left out the part where Luke did not duel a single Sith outside of Rhea, and defeated them through traps, misdirection, and blaster shots (with Ben assisting).

Truejedi
The final two sith managed to wound Luke with ONE cut to the abdomen, after which, he killed the master, and let the apprentice escape so he could track her.

My esteemed colleague seems to be suffering from some sort of illness, an unfortunate side effect of which is selective memory loss, because he forgot to add that the only reason Luke defeated Rhea in combat is because she was distracted and was looking in another direction.

Truejedi
When i read it, considering the shape in which Luke started, i was impressed with the fight, as were some others who read it. However, obviously, others disagreed, which is fine.

Well, when you essentially say that LUKE WAS ON THE VERGE OF DEATH AND PWNED 15 SITH DESPITE BEING ON THE VERGE OF DEATH AND THEN OWNED TWO SITH IN SINGLE COMBAT ONLY SUFFERING A SINGLE WOUND TO THE ABDOMEN BEFORE LETTING THE OTHER ONE GO AND THEN PROCEEDED TO GO OWN THE **** OUT OF EVERYONE EVAR, DID I MENTION HE WASNT FEELING GOOD? people will tend to look at things from a rather foggy set of glasses.

Truejedi
BUt i thought i'd throw out the other side of that debate so you could have both sides.

😆

that part of the book wasnt very well written, as it had Vestara knocked out, and Ahri cut in half, Xal gota shikkar to the abdomen, and then the next chapter, it had them all right there, Xal got 3 blaster shots to the chest without betraying Rhea, and Ahri got a saber to the face and not cut in half. Oh, and then Vestara (who is unconcious and walking and fit to fight) and Rhea dueling Luke, who had previously either killed or knocked them out, or in Rheas case, noit seen them before. Yeah, it makes perfect sense.

Ok, so Gideon (long time my friend, how ya been?) which position are you taking here as far as Luke's quote unquote ranking?

Darth Subjekt
Ok, so Gideon (long time my friend, how ya been?)

Excellent. Yourself?

(Join Star Wars, Reconstructed. Now. plz)

Darth Subjekt
which position are you taking here as far as Luke's quote unquote ranking?

The valid one. It is a particularly badass series of pages when one takes into account Luke's physical state and the array of forces before him. But my satisfaction of the fight stems from the fact that it diminishes the idea that Luke, an experienced duelist and General, is something of a naive idiot. He outwitted and outmaneuvered the Sith in a cat-and-mouse campaign throughout a space station.

My complaints arise from certain individuals wanting to use that fight as credence that Luke is simply an uber God of combat and is untouchable, the most powerful person ever. Because though I feel he should perhaps be that, this fight scene did not show him smashing the Sith through superior power and skill, but superior tactics. Lady Rhea is an aristocratic Sith whore and she managed to hold her own against Skywalker and died to a fluke.

This feat was no more (and arguably much less) than Vader hunting down the remainder of the Jedi post-Order 66 or Tarkin blowing up Alderaan or Sidious initiating the aforementioned Order. Badass, sure, but when you understand the context and how it was done, you can no longer attribute it quite the same level of badass.

The logical conclusion is that Luke Skywalker is a supremely proficient duelist in the mythos and an extremely powerful Force user, but there are those individuals who rival and surpass him in certain respects and are capable of killing him.

Originally posted by Gideon
My complaints arise from certain individuals wanting to use that fight as credence that Luke is simply an uber God of combat and is untouchable, the most powerful person ever. Because though I feel he should perhaps be that, this fight scene did not show him smashing the Sith through superior power and skill, but superior tactics. Lady Rhea is an aristocratic Sith whore and she managed to hold her own against Skywalker and died to a fluke.

The logical conclusion is that Luke Skywalker is a supremely proficient duelist in the mythos and an extremely powerful Force user, but there are those individuals who rival and surpass him in certain respects and are capable of killing him. [/B]

Btw, the new star wars invasion character says "Luke, powerful beyond belief". That's nice.

Darth Sexy
And you're again wasting everyone's time because this is [b]NOBODY'S stance and hasn't been for years. NOBODY believes Luke is an uber god and untouchable. Yes, he's the best of the best along with Palpatine, but nobody claimed he was infallible. Stop pushing this nonsense.[/b]

I believe we went over this in an MSN conversation: where is your proof that Luke is "the besy of the best [along with Palpatine]"? He hasn't really demonstrated anything outside of one or two situations that warrant him the accolade of best ever.

Evidence suggests he is among the best, not the best.

Darth Sexy
Rival and surpass? Really? Who? Prove it.

Kas'im, General Grievous, Mace Windu, Dooku, Sora Bulq, and most other accomplished Jedi and Sith demonstrate a far greater and comprehensive knowledge of technical lightsaber prowess, given their classical training. Yoda, Odan-Urr, Jacen, and Palpatine demonstrate a deeper command of Force techniques. Several characters have demonstrated feats on par or in excess of Skywalker's own, and we can get into that if you like.

Darth Sexy
Btw, the new star wars invasion character says "Luke, powerful beyond belief". That's nice.

And it means a lot.

Originally posted by Gideon
[B]I believe we went over this in an MSN conversation: where is your proof that Luke is "the besy of the best [along with Palpatine]"? He hasn't really demonstrated anything outside of one or two situations that warrant him the accolade of best ever.

Evidence suggests he is among the best, not the best.

Kas'im, General Grievous, Mace Windu, Dooku, Sora Bulq, and most other accomplished Jedi and Sith demonstrate a far greater and comprehensive knowledge of technical lightsaber prowess, given their classical training. Yoda, Odan-Urr, Jacen, and Palpatine demonstrate a deeper command of Force techniques. Several characters have demonstrated feats on par or in excess of Skywalker's own, and we can get into that if you like.

Now Yoda, Odan Urr, and Jacen? Really? What has Jacen done? Because if you want to go that route, his range of techniques surpasses Sidious as well. Odan Urr? You mean 1 technique that he taught Nomi and couldn't do on exar Kun? Now YOURE reaching.

Darth Sexy
Where is your proof others are better?

I said that there are those who rival and surpass him in certain areas and are capable of killing him; I didn't say that they were "better." But the opposition hasn't provided the necessary evidence to support the notion that he is, without question, the very best [insert title here] ever. Why should I agree that he is? Because you say so?

Hardly.

Darth Sexy
Technical lightsaber knowledge doesn't guarantee a victory, otherwise Boondara would have beaten Maul, not vice versa.

Actually, no. Unless I'm mistaken, nothing in Shadow Hunter states that Bondara was Maul's superior in technical ability.

Darth Sexy
There's absolutely NOTHING to suggest those characters can defeat Luke in a saber battle.

But that's not what you asked of me.

Darth Sexy
Rival and surpass? Really? Who? Prove it.

Last time I checked, technical lightsaber prowess and Force knowledge are categories.

Darth Sexy
Now Yoda, Odan Urr, and Jacen? Really? What has Jacen done?

What has Jacen done? You understand that the entire first three books of Fate of the Jedi deal with Skywalker learning techniques that his nephew knew that he did not?

Darth Sexy
Because if you want to go that route, his range of techniques surpasses Sidious as well.

Prove it. 🙂

Darth Sexy
Odan Urr? You mean 1 technique that he taught Nomi and couldn't do on exar Kun? Now YOURE reaching.

Odan Urr was an accomplished scholar and proficient librarian with access to a great many Force secrets.

Nebaris was quite convincing with that one.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm leaving until tomorrow night so I'll address what I can now

What has Jacen done? You understand that the entire first three books of Fate of the Jedi deal with Skywalker learning techniques that his nephew knew that he did not?

Odan Urr was an accomplished scholar and proficient librarian with access to a great many Force secrets.

Nebaris was quite convincing with that one. [/B]

You're like a living, breathing MapQuest function to Ignore City.

Darth Sexy
Great! Nothing to suggest Palpatine knew anything Jacen knew either.

This makes no sense, but that isn't very surprising. We have evidence that flat out tells us that Jacen's sojourn lent him a knowledge of the Force that Skywalker simply does not match, hence a major reason for his uncle following in his footsteps.

Darth Sexy
There IS a matter of the other 20 years that Luke Skywalker had to study.

Numerous sources have made it abundantly clear that the Emperor collected and sequestered the vast majority of Force-related knowledge in the galaxy; Luke had but scraps with which to work.

Darth Sexy
Jacen might have a broader range of knowledge in terms of esoteric techniques, but that's about it.

Which is an area that he surpasses Luke in, bringing us back full circle to the original claim:

Originally posted by Gideon
The logical conclusion is that Luke Skywalker is a supremely proficient duelist in the mythos and an extremely powerful Force user, but there are those individuals who rival and surpass him in certain respects and are capable of killing him.

Darth Sexy
Nor was it enough to defeat Luke in battle.

Who said it was?

😕

Originally posted by Gideon
no

Not at all.

Because statements provided by the narration, such as "Luke was in no condition to be merciful" and "it was all Luke could do to use the Force to keep her in front of him" and "[Rhea] pummelled him from throat to thigh[...]" are obvious indicators that Luke was in control of the fight the entire time and could have vanquished them at whim with his command of the Force or peerless lightsaber skills, but that he wanted to show off for Ben.

You're being far too charitable to the opposition, TJ. The whole thing was a charade concocted by Luke to deceive some members of the audience.

My esteemed colleague forgot to add that Luke was able to use the Force to temporarily alter the effect of his atrophied muscles, telling Ben that he was "feeling better by the second."

Tarkin blew up a planet, Sidious destroyed ten thousand Jedi and a Republic.

My esteemed colleague accidentally left out the part where Luke did not duel a single Sith outside of Rhea, and defeated them through traps, misdirection, and blaster shots (with Ben assisting).

My esteemed colleague seems to be suffering from some sort of illness, an unfortunate side effect of which is selective memory loss, because he forgot to add that the only reason Luke defeated Rhea in combat is because she was distracted and was looking in another direction.

Well, when you essentially say that LUKE WAS ON THE VERGE OF DEATH AND PWNED 15 SITH DESPITE BEING ON THE VERGE OF DEATH AND THEN OWNED TWO SITH IN SINGLE COMBAT ONLY SUFFERING A SINGLE WOUND TO THE ABDOMEN BEFORE LETTING THE OTHER ONE GO AND THEN PROCEEDED TO GO OWN THE **** OUT OF EVERYONE EVAR, DID I MENTION HE WASNT FEELING GOOD? people will tend to look at things from a rather foggy set of glasses.

😆

Didn't mean i was going to post both sides, you should know me better than that! lol, how self-defeating would that be?

I knew i could count on someone else (didn't know it would be you) to take care of that side! lol, plus Red had already opened with "severly threatened" argument.

Yoda, Odan-Urr, Jacen, and Palpatine demonstrate a deeper command of Force techniques. Several characters have demonstrated feats on par or in excess of Skywalker's own, and we can get into that if you like.

It has been stated by multiple sources, even Jacen himself, that Luke > Jacen. The only advantage that Jacen has is a few Force techniques that he learned, many of which Luke also learned in FOTJ.

Yet Gideon implied Odan Urr and Jacen had deeper command of force techniques than Luke, without any kind of original explanation.

damn.. I haven't been here in like ages.. lol

Spite against who may I ask? If jango suceeds in flying away and just leaving the scene, his team wins automatically. But if then since anyone can take on Grevious, hes dead automatically. Mace crushes his ass and Yoda and Luke easily pwn ventress with da force. If all that buys time for Jango to escape, then good for him. But if it doesn't, 1st team wins.

But I'm inclined to say that the 1st team wins.

You should have put in Caedus, and Palps on team 2. That would be better. lol

@Gideon

Yes, of course. Almost EVERYBODY in Star Wars surpasses someone else in Star Wars in at least one area. Same with in real life. Everybody always has at least one advantage that they have over someone else. Overall, Luke > Jacen. Jacen himself admitted that, and Kyp (or I think that it was Kyp) called Luke the most dangerous man in the galaxy, and Jacen the second most dangerous. Plus, Han Solo thought it to be a joke the idea that Luke might lose to Jacen.

Dr McBeefington
This is what yu have yet to prove for Jacen and Odan Urr. Deeper command of force techniques?

Advent and a certain sock both made eloquent and considerable arguments for Odan Urr; it's practically impossible to contradict the case they made. The Dark Nest Crisis and much of both subsequent series illustrate that while Skywalker's powers remain more formidable than Jacen's, he did not have his nephew's scope of Force knowledge, which is why (I reiterate) Skywalker is travelling to these various cults that Jacen made on his sojourn: to learn what his nephew knew that he himself did not.

Dr McBeefington
You just spent a whole post ranting about how Jacen surpasses Luke in esoteric techniques. That translates to "deeper command of force techniques"?

Traditionally, if a Force user is a master of more arcane, complex techniques, he or she has a knowledge that surpasses someone with a more basic perspective.

Dr McBeefington
I guess Luke has Jacen on Electric Judgement, dovin basals, etc. You say he learned little or had limited knowledge? He seemed quite powerful up until DE. He then got even more powerful under the tutelage of Palpatine, as well as the library on Ossus.

Power and knowledge are not the same concepts; the fact that Skywalker was powerful does not mean that his knowledge of the Force is greater than those who are weaker than he is.

Your desperation is tangible; this is the price one pays for losing on multiple fronts. You're the one back peddling and we've all noticed that you failed to address or concede the bulk of my argument.

You need to do one or the other, and you need to do it soon. It would be a shame for you to be otherwise relegated to the status of a certain sock and ignored.

Disagree all you like. Argue all you like. But you will either address your opponent's argument or, failing that, concede.