Most knowledgein the force

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
???

I haven't read the argument, but was it you that said that jedi librarians don't have all that much knowledge about books?

Besides, TJ is more civilized then most people here.

Anyway, Yoda is as I said an obvious contender. He has had like 8 centuries to study the Force. That's like 8+ times the amount of studying time that most other jedi/sith got.

For sith, maybe Bane?

thank you. Not sure what all Beefington said[spoiler]he's on ignore, but in denial of the fact: based on the fact that in the quoted portion above, he called me a parrot... whatever that means. Its not even that insulting really. [spoiler], but i appreciate it.

His actual argument was that Revan had more force knowledge than anyone but Sidious. I asked him to prove it. He repeatedly said: Lolz, I don't have to substantiate it. That's almost a direct quote. He said it repeatedly, which naturally angered myself, because it spits in the face of everything this forum is about. You don't make statements without being able to prove it. Been that way since my first post years ago.

I told him repeatedly if I misunderstood what he was claiming, to clarify it, but he only confirmed that he thought he could make a statement like that about revan without being forced to substantiate any of it.

As always, DS skipped straight to the name-calling instead of proving his shit. I, to my shame, responded in kind for once. It deteriorated from there. I'm still waiting for his proof. He keeps dishing out insults instead, so I have lost all respect for him at this point. If he ever makes an attempt to back up what he claimed, or attempts to let me know that I have misconstrued his point, I'll listen, but until then...

So in the meantime, if he asks you to prove something, you can decline based on your own opinion of what happened. Works for him, and allows him to repeatedly claim victory in a debate that never got past the opening salvo.

Noticing what happened in this thread, with subjekt, Red, Yourself, and Advent, either DS is not as easy to understand as he thinks he is, or he is constantly backtracking. Because he doesn't seem to have really back-tracked much in the past, i'd give him the benefit of the doubt and call it the former, but since he refuses to indulge what he exactly meant when he said he doesn't have to substantiate his claims... I am left to wonder.

You're a damned liar and ought to be called on such bullshit, or at least handed a shovel for either it or the hole you're digging yourself into.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Or you're incapable of reading TOTJ, as Odan Urr states it's the only sith holocron as far as anyone knows. Try again.

Provide the scan or please shut up.

"From the galactic museum on Coruscant, Satal and Aleema stole a book of ancient Sith spells" - just one holocron according to TOTJ, was it?

"The library contained knowledge forbidden by the Jedi Order, such as Sith holocrons. Odan-Urr believed that all knowledge-even knowledge of evil- might prove valuable in defense of justice." (Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, Ch. 7, pg. 135)."

Canon coming directly from the primary source material and the sourcebook trump your falsehoods and make it known that you're a pathetic hack. Good game, troll.

Your point? Once again, there's no evidence that Odan Urr was a scholar, rather than a historian.

"Odan-Urr spent much of his time studying ancient texts and artifacts and meditating on the Force" - Power of the Jedi Sourcebook.

He is listed as being a *gasp* Jedi scholar in the book! According to the very same source, a Jedi scholar is defined as:

“Jedi scholars were an important part of the Jedi Council, constantly adding to the vast body of lore the Council could call on to make difficult decisions. Scholars traveled to the fringes of civilized space to seek out lost fragments of text or to study newly discovered information” (Ch. 2, pg. 24).

You're right, besides the mountains of scans, canon declarations, and logic I've provided that indicates that he's a scholar, he isn't because you say-so. Just because you choose not to see something doesn't mean it isn't there. QED.

He's not the most powerful Jedi of his time, he's not the 2nd most powerful jedi of his time, nor the 3rd.

And who is then? It's largely irrelevant when we're discussing those "most knowledgeable in the Force" (the thread topic). It's clear that he was the de facto grandmaster of the Jedi Order for six centuries, who's knowledge lived on to influence the order itself for thousands of years.

Being the most knowledgeable Jedi during the pinnacle of Jedi wealth and knowledge is the most obvious indication that he's "one of the most knowledgeable ever". Your rebuttal states that "he's not a scholar, therefore he didn't study it". This is proved false on both accounts since he was a scholar and did indeed study all the materials. Odan was the man who organized the Great Jedi Library and sorted all of that information out. He did study it.

Hilarious. So because Odan Urr excavated it or created a library, then he MUST have studied most of the things in there?

"Odan-Urr believed that all knowledge-even knowledge of evil- might prove valuable in defense of justice".

He was also the oldest. What's your point? That's like saying "Vodo Baas is awesome because he's a battlemaster." Again, nothing suggesting Odan Urr studied all of that knowledge, as opposed to Revan who fell to the dark side because he hungered for knowledge.

Again, Odan didn't "hunger for knowledge"? That goes against his very reputation, and literally everything that we know about his entire life. Nothing you say is supported by the canon.

Right. About insights into the force, about the Jedi code, not about actual techniques.

Ah, yes, because knowledge of the Force means "zOMG, TEH TECHNIQUES!". It extends much further than that, however, Odan himself wasn't without his mastery of esoteric Force abilities like battle meditation and "the most devastating power the light side has to offer" Force sever, demonstrated in the scans above.

You haven't smacked anything down.

My posts beg to differ - seeing what we want to see again? Another classic "tdtd troll tactic". A proverbial flying elbow from the top rope in the form of heaps of evidence directly from the source material can hardly be considered anything but a smackdown. Your argument against Odan has no substance, ergo it collapses.

As Gideon often says, you're reaching.

First off, Gideon doesn't say that to me. Second, saying that the most knowledgeable Jedi in the apex of knowledge is "one of the most knowledgeable in the Force" is not reaching. Your feeble one-liners that don't come close to countering the mountains of on-panel evidence and reasoning I've shown is reaching. Arguing against canon is reaching. Just pipe down already before you're exposed to be an even bigger idiot and liar.

Originally posted by truejedi
Noticing what happened in this thread, with subjekt, Red, Yourself, and Advent, either DS is not as easy to understand as he thinks he is, or he is constantly backtracking. Because he doesn't seem to have really back-tracked much in the past, i'd give him the benefit of the doubt and call it the former, but since he refuses to indulge what he exactly meant when he said he doesn't have to substantiate his claims... I am left to wonder.

Don't give him the benefit of the doubt. Give me the benefit of the doubt when I say that...we've seen too many times what you've described about your discussion with tdt--Dr. McBeefington. This dates back to his original account that was banned for trolling (read: idiocy).

Originally posted by Advent
Don't give him the benefit of the doubt. Give me the benefit of the doubt when I say that...we've seen too many times what you've described about your discussion with tdt--Dr. McBeefington. This dates back to his original account that was banned for trolling (read: idiocy).

since i have had nothing but enjoyable debate with yourself, i acquiesce to your request.

Originally posted by truejedi
thank you. Not sure what all Beefington said[spoiler]he's on ignore, but in denial of the fact: based on the fact that in the quoted portion above, he called me a parrot... whatever that means. Its not even that insulting really. [spoiler], but i appreciate it.

His actual argument was that Revan had more force knowledge than anyone but Sidious. I asked him to prove it. He repeatedly said: Lolz, I don't have to substantiate it. That's almost a direct quote. He said it repeatedly, which naturally angered myself, because it spits in the face of everything this forum is about. You don't make statements without being able to prove it. Been that way since my first post years ago.

I told him repeatedly if I misunderstood what he was claiming, to clarify it, but he only confirmed that he thought he could make a statement like that about revan without being forced to substantiate any of it.

As always, DS skipped straight to the name-calling instead of proving his shit. I, to my shame, responded in kind for once. It deteriorated from there. I'm still waiting for his proof. He keeps dishing out insults instead, so I have lost all respect for him at this point. If he ever makes an attempt to back up what he claimed, or attempts to let me know that I have misconstrued his point, I'll listen, but until then...

So in the meantime, if he asks you to prove something, you can decline based on your own opinion of what happened. Works for him, and allows him to repeatedly claim victory in a debate that never got past the opening salvo.

Noticing what happened in this thread, with subjekt, Red, Yourself, and Advent, either DS is not as easy to understand as he thinks he is, or he is constantly backtracking. Because he doesn't seem to have really back-tracked much in the past, i'd give him the benefit of the doubt and call it the former, but since he refuses to indulge what he exactly meant when he said he doesn't have to substantiate his claims... I am left to wonder.

Kinda embarrassing when 2-3 people agreed with me and TJ kept crying, and ignoring facts. Then instead of conceding, he continued to embarrass himself. And yet here he is still trying to convince people while riding other people's coattails so he can feel better about getting his ass kicked. Truly sad.

Originally posted by Advent
Don't give him the benefit of the doubt. Give me the benefit of the doubt when I say that...we've seen too many times what you've described about your discussion with tdt--Dr. McBeefington. This dates back to his original account that was banned for trolling (read: idiocy).

Ah and advent being the typical moron resorts to the tdtd comments when angry. You're very transparent.

Originally posted by Advent
You're a damned liar and ought to be called on such bullshit, or at least handed a shovel for either it or the hole you're digging yourself into.

Provide the scan or please shut up.

"From the galactic museum on Coruscant, Satal and Aleema stole a book of ancient Sith spells" - just one holocron according to TOTJ, was it?

"[b]The library contained knowledge forbidden by the Jedi Order, such as Sith holocrons. Odan-Urr believed that all knowledge-even knowledge of evil- might prove valuable in defense of justice." (Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, Ch. 7, pg. 135)."

Canon coming directly from the primary source material and the sourcebook trump your falsehoods and make it known that you're a pathetic hack. Good game, troll.

quote]"Odan-Urr spent much of his time studying ancient texts and artifacts and meditating on the Force" - Power of the Jedi Sourcebook.

He is listed as being a *gasp* Jedi scholar in the book! According to the very same source, a Jedi scholar is defined as:

“Jedi scholars were an important part of the Jedi Council, constantly adding to the vast body of lore the Council could call on to make difficult decisions. Scholars traveled to the fringes of civilized space to seek out lost fragments of text or to study newly discovered information” (Ch. 2, pg. 24).[/quote]
Studying ancient texts, artifacts and...Oh wait, where are force techniques? That's right, they don't exist.

You're right, besides the mountains of scans, canon declarations, and logic I've provided that indicates that he's a scholar, he isn't because you say-so. Just because you choose not to see something doesn't mean it isn't there. QED.

Being the most knowledgeable Jedi during the pinnacle of Jedi wealth and knowledge is the most obvious indication that he's "one of the most knowledgeable ever". Your rebuttal states that "he's not a scholar, therefore he didn't study it". This is proved false on both accounts since he was a scholar and did indeed study all the materials. Odan was the man who organized the Great Jedi Library and sorted all of that information out. He did study it.

"Odan-Urr believed that all knowledge-even knowledge of evil- might prove valuable in defense of justice".

Again, Odan didn't "hunger for knowledge"? That goes against his very reputation, and literally everything that we know about his entire life. Nothing you say is supported by the canon.

Ah, yes, because knowledge of the Force means "zOMG, TEH TECHNIQUES!". It extends much further than that, however, Odan himself wasn't without his mastery of esoteric Force abilities like battle meditation and "the most devastating power the light side has to offer" Force sever, demonstrated in the scans above.

My posts beg to differ - seeing what we want to see again? Another classic "tdtd troll tactic". A proverbial flying elbow from the top rope in the form of heaps of evidence directly from the source material can hardly be considered anything but a smackdown. Your argument against Odan has no substance, ergo it collapses.

First off, Gideon doesn't say that to me. Second, saying that the most knowledgeable Jedi in the apex of knowledge is "one of the most knowledgeable in the Force" is not reaching. Your feeble one-liners that don't come close to countering the mountains of on-panel evidence and reasoning I've shown is reaching. Arguing against canon is reaching. Just pipe down already before you're exposed to be an even bigger idiot and liar. [/B]

Are you f'ing blind?

Originally posted by Advent
Provide the scan or please shut up.

"From the galactic museum on Coruscant, Satal and Aleema stole a book of ancient Sith spells" - just one holocron according to TOTJ, was it?

"[b]The library contained knowledge forbidden by the Jedi Order, such as Sith holocrons. Odan-Urr believed that all knowledge-even knowledge of evil- might prove valuable in defense of justice." (Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, Ch. 7, pg. 135)."

Canon coming directly from the primary source material and the sourcebook trump your falsehoods and make it known that you're a pathetic hack. Good game, troll.[/B]

Put up or shut up. This is otherwise known as calling you out. Provide the scans that show Odan-Urr confirming your unsupported absurdity or admit that you've been talking out of your ass this entire time.

I'd certainly hand out the scans if they existed, but they don't. Don't accuse me of intentionally hiding evidence. It's not my job to support your claims. The burden of proof lies upon you.

DLOTS, when Odan Urr is explaining it to Nomi Sunrider. You lose, move along.

In Dark Lords of the Sith, the instance where Odan talks to Nomi about the holocron is two pages, one of which I've already posted to support my argument:

Tell us where any mention of "one holocron" is at. Oh? What's that? None? Indeed, you've been caught in a lie. The primary source material directly contradicts your assertions. QED.

Originally posted by Advent
Are you f'ing blind?

Put up or shut up. This is otherwise known as calling you out. Provide the scans that show Odan-Urr confirming your unsupported absurdity or admit that you've been talking out of your ass this entire time.

I'd certainly hand out the scans if they existed, but they don't. Don't accuse me of intentionally hiding evidence. It's not my job to support your claims. The burden of proof lies upon you.

In Dark Lords of the Sith, the instance where Odan talks to Nomi about the holocron is two pages, one of which I've already posted to support my argument:

Tell us where any mention of "one holocron" is at. Oh? What's that? None? Indeed, you've been caught in a lie. The primary source material directly contradicts your assertions. QED. [/B]

So you have all of the TOTJ comics? Are you sure?

And as usual Advent embarrasses herself with blatant ignorance. This has been swell. Advent, you should move on, this stuff is giving you too much stress to the point where you can't argue intelligently anymore🙂

That's from TSW, which happens to be a separate collection of comics from DLotS. Anyways,

Originally posted by Advent

"From the galactic museum on Coruscant, Satal and Aleema stole a book of ancient Sith spells".

How does Odan-Urr having the only Sith holocron known at the time negate the fact that there were troves of ancient Sith knowledge in the hands of the Jedi and on Ossus specifically? It doesn't.

How does Odan-Urr having the only Sith holocron known at the time negate my arguments for his Force knowledge? It doesn't.

Either address them or shut up.

Originally posted by Advent
That's from TSW, which happens to be a separate collection of comics from DLotS. Anyways,

How does Odan-Urr having the only Sith holocron known at the time negate the fact that there were troves of ancient Sith knowledge in the hands of the Jedi and on Ossus specifically? It doesn't.

How does Odan-Urr having the only Sith holocron known at the time negate my arguments for his Force knowledge? It doesn't.

Either address them or shut up. [/B]

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Doesn't matter. You claimed to have owned ALL of the TOTJ comics. I've disproved that notion.

Factual error:

Originally posted by Advent
I have almost the entire TOTJ series saved on my computer.

And if I didn't make myself clear enough, I stated that it's not my job to sort through dozens of comic books to find a single line that gave credence to one point you've brought up. The onus was on you do such, and doing such doesn't disprove the fact that I do have "almost all" the comics on my computer.

You claimed that the library and/or Odan Urr had sith holocrons whereas I disproved this notion. Now you're backpeddling. Now please, what do you define as "troves of ancient sith knowledge" exactly?

I'm "backpedaling" to the argument at hand, that's not a bad thing simply because it puts your arguments under a microscope and asks for proof. I'll admit that perhaps you're not a liar, but that doesn't disassociate you with the title of village idiot.

The Chamber of Antiquities contained ancient Sith spell books and artifacts. Just one of which was enough to turn Aleema Keto into a dangerous Sith sorceress, with techniques like Force blast or illusions. It thus contained powers, as well as knowledge about the Sith history. Odan's comments on that single Sith holocron are described as "the Sith’s own words, their teachings, and the histories of their dark lords". These are teachings directly from the mouths of the Sith themselves.

Back peddling Advent, how sad.

What's sad would be to let your assertions go unanswered to. Odan-Urr having the only known Sith holocron in existence at the time doesn't prove that he's not one of the most knowledgeable in the Force.

You don't have any argument concerning his force abilities. You have an argument concerning his knowledge of history, as well as jedi philosophy and meditation on the force. There's no sources that state or show Odan Urr pursuing the knowledge/power that I originally discussed. Try again.

In Advent's corner:

Originally posted by Advent
But Advent has: Odan-Urr was the de facto grand master of the Order during his time according to the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, which states several times that "he presided over Jedi assemblies".

"Until the Jedi Purge, the teachings of Jedi Master Odan-Urr formed a foundation for the Jedi Code. His insights into the will of the living Force were taught for millenia after his passing.

He achieved the rank of Jedi Master and presided over the Jedi assembly for more than six centuries. Many of his teachings came from these years of meditation, study, and conference with a multitude of Jedi Masters." (Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, Ch. 6, pg. 99)

Odan-Urr is the grandfather of the modern Jedi Order, starting with his own. He is the only person in Star Wars history to have made amendments to the Jedi Code; something which[b] all Jedi adhere to, and live by. His studies have lead to such an understanding of the principles of the light side that his writings on the Jedi Code, that is, the Force and the manner of how the Jedi react with it, are considered what shaped the Jedi Order up to what we see in the "Prime of the Jedi" - the Prequel Trilogy.

How did he get this "knowledgeable", you may ask? The Great Jedi Library, the greatest collection of knowledge the Jedi Order had ever known, was founded by Odan-Urr. The library consisted of a plethora of scrolls, holocrons and information (both from the Jedi and the Sith) dating back to before the use of the hyperdrive. If we follow the galactic usage of the hyperdrive post-Rakata, that's 25,000 BBY. Ossus was destroyed in 3,996 BBY. What was contained there spanned well over twenty-thousand years; knowledge from the very establishment of the Jedi Order! The Jedi Archives of the PT were started with scraps that were preserved from the library on Ossus.

We get an idea about how much was lost and thus held in the noggin of Odan "The Enlightened One" Urr when the evacuations are nearing their end on Ossus due to the oncoming supernova.

"The emergency efforts of all the Jedi can barely scratch the surface of the knowledge entombed on Ossus" - the omniscient narrator telling us the capacity of information on Ossus. Tott Donetta goes on to say that even if they had an entire year, what's stored in the library could not be fully rescued.

Another indication of the sheer vastness of that Jedi Library is seen when Exar Kun storms Ossus, and takes with him a small fraction of scrolls and artifacts back to his base on Yavin IV.

The narrator described the limited quantity of texts that were gathered as "more wealth and knowledge than [Kun] could ever use".

To put all of this into perspective, Odan-Urr was the one who collected all that invaluable information, organized it, and studied it for well over a millennium. An emphasis on "studied" because that's precisely what he did. He was a scholar, devoting the majority of his life to expanding his knowledge base and meditating upon these findings every single day of his life and he's had more than a thousand years to do such. Of course his knowledge of the Force should be counted among the greatest. [/B]

Originally posted by Advent
His entire reputation is based around studying and meditating on those studies, and that is quite literally how he described himself. Did you even read anything from TOTJ? The omniscient narrator, his own master and colleagues are constantly referring to his deep studies, even going so far as having his own master, Ooroo, to say that "(Odan) would be content to spend (his) entire life in the company of scrolls and documents".

You've used the (admittedly logical) reasoning that Revan was a scholar; therefore he studied virtually everything he got his hands on. The same principle applies here because Odan-Urr was a scholar, only in his case devoting more time than anyone in the entire mythology to knowledge of the Force given that he's had one thousand years to do such!

3.) Uh, Odan-Urr was the sole keeper of the Chamber of Antiquities where dark side artifacts were stored for 600 years. He's got more than "one holocron" in his possession and it isn't limited to just holocrons either. You’re talking out of your ass.

Moreover, from the source material itself we learn about what was contained in that [b]one holocron:

"This is a very rare Sith holocron. In it we find the Sith’s own words, their teachings, and the histories of their dark lords…” – that alone eclipses the PT Jedi’s information on the Sith.

The entire reason behind Aleema Keto’s rise to power with the dark side was because she stole an ancient Sith spell book from a Jedi museum. The placement of such Sith powerful artifacts, scrolls and information in the hands of Jedi is only logical for their era. They had vanquished the ancient Sith Order in a war, leaving behind virtual mountains of treasure. They excavated tons of knowledge on the dark side that Odan happened to be in care of on Ossus. He clearly had extensive, in-depth analysis and research on ancient Sith abilities and history. This is made apparent throughout TOTJ, where he tells tales of ancient Sith lore.[/B]

Originally posted by Advent
"[b]Odan-Urr spent much of his time studying ancient texts and artifacts and meditating on the Force" - Power of the Jedi Sourcebook.

He is listed as being a *gasp* Jedi scholar in the book! According to the very same source, a Jedi scholar is defined as:

“Jedi scholars were an important part of the Jedi Council, constantly adding to the vast body of lore the Council could call on to make difficult decisions. Scholars traveled to the fringes of civilized space to seek out lost fragments of text or to study newly discovered information” (Ch. 2, pg. 24).

You're right, besides the mountains of scans, canon declarations, and logic I've provided that indicates that he's a scholar, he isn't because you say-so. Just because you choose not to see something doesn't mean it isn't there. QED.

Being the most knowledgeable Jedi during the pinnacle of Jedi wealth and knowledge is the most obvious indication that he's "one of the most knowledgeable ever". Your rebuttal states that "he's not a scholar, therefore he didn't study it". This is proved false on both accounts since he was a scholar and did indeed study all the materials. Odan was the man who organized the Great Jedi Library and sorted all of that information out. He did study it.

Ah, yes, because knowledge of the Force means "zOMG, TEH TECHNIQUES!". It extends much further than that, however, Odan himself wasn't without his mastery of esoteric Force abilities like battle meditation and "the most devastating power the light side has to offer" Force sever, demonstrated in the scans above.[/B]

In yours: ______________.

That is to say, "none". Oh, maybe we can add "Odan-Urr isn't a scholar (he is) and only has one Sith holocron". Your argument has no substance, and therefore, collapses.

Originally posted by Advent
Factual error:

And if I didn't make myself clear enough, I stated that it's not my job to sort through dozens of comic books to find a single line that gave credence to one point you've brought up. The onus was on you do such, and doing such doesn't disprove the fact that I do have "almost all" the comics on my computer.

I'm "backpedaling" to the argument at hand, that's not a bad thing simply because it puts your arguments under a microscope and asks for proof. I'll admit that perhaps you're not a liar, but that doesn't disassociate you with the title of village idiot.

The Chamber of Antiquities contained ancient Sith spell books and artifacts. Just one of which was enough to turn Aleema Keto into a dangerous Sith sorceress, with techniques like Force blast or illusions. It thus contained powers, as well as knowledge about the Sith history. Odan's comments on that single Sith holocron are described as "the Sith’s own words, their teachings, and the histories of their dark lords". These are teachings directly from the mouths of the Sith themselves.

What's sad would be to let your assertions go unanswered just because Odan-Urr only had the only known Sith holocron in existence.

In Advent's corner:

In yours: ______________.

That is to say, "none". Oh, maybe we can add "Odan-Urr isn't a scholar (he is) and only has one Sith holocron". Your argument has no substance, and therefore, collapses. [/B]

My corner: No proof that Odan Urr had an advanced knowledge or command of the force or force techniques aside for a FEW. No proof that Odan Urr studied even a fraction of what was in the library. The lack of proof basically shits on your argument. We can do this all night sweetheart.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Actually you called me a liar. I was going to post it sooner but I wanted to see how far knee deep in shit you could get.

I have to know, how does calling you a liar for saying something repeatedly and not proving it until you've been verbally berated speak to anything other than your fetish for abuse? At one point, you specifically mentioned DLotS as the source. I provided the scans and nothing there supported your point. The rules of a debate dictate that the burden of proof lied upon you to prove your claims, therefore the onus wasn't on me. To put it simply, I'm not responsible for your arguments.

Yes, in Advent's corner: A bunch of shit that doesn't really explain much, more quotes that are contradicted by actual evidence, and a lot of personal attacks which make me wonder what grade you're in.

Blanket statements don't mean squat. Either accept valid canon, scans and logic or don't debate at all.

My corner: No proof that Odan Urr had an advanced knowledge or command of the force or force techniques aside for a FEW. No proof that Odan Urr studied even a fraction of what was in the library. The lack of proof basically shits on your argument. We can do this all night sweetheart.

I've provided mountains of proof, refusing to accept it doesn't make it any less valid.

I know you think you're the "big man on campus" because you managed to contradict one point, but let me reiterate: Odan having the only Sith holocron in existence does not negate the fact that's he's one of the most knowledgeable Force users ever, nor does it negate the fact that he did have knowledge directly from the ancient Sith.

I may have been a tad bit hasty in labeling you as a liar, but the case can certainly be made that you're a hypocrite. Following on what Red Nemesis pointed out, there's a double standard here:

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
It's not though. His knowledge is definitely top tier and few rival it. We don't have to know WHAT he knows specifically, just that he had access to the underground cities of Malachor V and the tombs of Korriban.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Bullshit. Malachor V was described as being "underground cities with sith scrolls and holocrons", or something to that nature. We all know the value of the Korriban treasures and tombs, and Revan was the first to plunder them. Don't argue out of ignorance.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
It doesn't matter. Both were sith worlds. Revan put some of his findings into his holocron and Bane could hardly "wrap his mind around the techniques." It doesn't matter what specific powers he found. And you're going to REALLY debate the value of the tombs and relics of an unplundered Korriban? Please.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
You don't have a point. Revan studied the force. This was who he was. I'm not going to waste my time proving KOTOR, KOTOR II, and the Chronicles of Revan to you. Facts are facts, deal with them.

Your basis for Revan studying all of this was because he was a scholar and craved knowledge of the Force. This sounds strikingly similar to the argument for Odan's knowledge, except the information base he had to work with and the time he had to study it was tenfold that of Revan's. There's also mountains of proof supporting my conclusion here whereas in the case you made for Revan, nothing but assumptions were made.

Originally posted by Advent

Your basis for Revan studying all of this was because he was a scholar and craved knowledge of the Force. This sounds strikingly similar to the argument for Odan's knowledge, except the information base he had to work with and the time he had to study it was tenfold that of Revan's. There's also mountains of proof supporting my conclusion here whereas in the case you made for Revan, nothing but assumptions were made. [/B]

whats with the debates... I thought this is supposed to be just a list of ppl who u think are the most knowledgeable in the Force.

They are debating if he has the most knowledge or not. As far as jedi go, I would say him or Yoda.

As far as Sith, there is no way Revan knew more than Sidious, as Revan put his teachings in a holocron, Bane found it, and out it all in HIS holocron. Sidious had access to 1000 years of new sith knowledge, on top of the holocrons of those that Bane found (a.k.a. Freedon Nadd, Belia Darzu, etc.)

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Tenfold? This is definitely reaching, considering there's nothing indicating that anything from Korriban or Malachor V, the CENTERS of sith knowledge, made it back to coruscant or to the Jedi, during Odan Urr's time. So while Odan Urr's knowledge of philosophy, meditation, and MAYBE Jedi techniques could be greater than Revan's, Revan's knowledge of the dark side and the sith far surpass Odan Urr.

What DS "knowledge" did revan far surpass that of odan?

And just where is this quote of revan plundering malachor and korriban? I want the exact quote of him actually studying there because i can't remember who stated it.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
What DS "knowledge" did revan far surpass that of odan?

And just where is this quote of revan plundering malachor and korriban? I want the exact quote of him actually studying there because i can't remember who stated it.

What knowledge did Odan Urr have of the sith? Oh right... Nothing except a wonderful story about a jedi/sith betraying his master. Great! Revan went to Malachor V and discovered underground cities filled with sith tomes and holocrons. Then he went and plundered Korriban. Yea, I'd say his knowledge of the dark side and the sith is far beyond Odan Urr.