Originally posted by Advent
[whole bunch of text, so don't copy and paste my quote from this post]...why is it unreasonable to extend the possibility to fight scenes that aren't shown?
This should read: '...why is it unreasonable to extend the possibility of being wrong to fight scenes that aren't shown?'.
Originally posted by Advent
[B]Can I please ask for reasonable discussion? Rather than Lightsnake Logic - "it's canon, end of story" and ad hominem attacks. A reasonable discussion at least should admit that you acknowledge the opposition's argument and think about where they are coming from. Gideon's (one) post is a perfect example of that. I'm willing to say that perhaps you're right, and it is canon, but I believe that conclusion is based on inconclusive evidence.
I've explained to you HOW AND WHY it is canon. Point out one use of ad hominem, Advent, because I'm not entirely convinced you know what that means.
While Lucas has approved the novel and allegedly reviewed it line by line, he still left in direct contradictions to his own movie. This is the basis for questioning its validity: fight scenes themselves are shown to directly contradict the movie, why is it unreasonable to extend the possibility to fight scenes that aren't shown?
Except for the fact that the author was wrong about fight scenes even shown in the movie? That's my biggest problem here. If he was wrong then, why is he absolutely right here about scenes that aren't even so much as featured? I'm guessing that you responded to that single snippet and didn't even read the post it originated from.
YOU YOURSELF have addressed this in the past. The author wasn't 'wrong,' the movie made later merely rendered those scenes N-Canon. As Leland Chee, the man who handles canon has said, noncontradictory material is and has always been considered C-G canon.
Btw, Advent, 'ad hominem?' It's not 'insult,' it'd be if I dismissed your argument off hand because of something of you personally. If I said "that's wrong and you're a fool," that is one thing. If I say "That's wrong because you're a fool" that's ad hominem.
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(I love that emote)
Advent, I'm fairly certain that you're not following: The author is, in this case, "wrong" simply because Lucas decided to change certain facets of the movie during shooting. There is a blatant contradiction shown and thus the movie takes precedence. But if there is no contradiction and room can be made for the events, dialogue, scenes, and musings that are displayed in the novelization, then it is canon.
That's simply how it works. Novelizations are C-canon. Unless you can provide a direct reason for why a specific event should not be considered part of the movie, then it stands.
Originally posted by Advent
You aren't going on my ignore, Dr. No, but you are going to be ignored. Do you get that?@Lightsnake: Agreed on the 'ad hominem'. I just wrote that hastily based on that "is this your MO lately" comment.
You can put me on ignore all you want Advent. I've proven my case, you haven't proven yours. Making shit up doesn't help your argument either.
I can't help but repeat myself: the author was wrong about fight scenes that are shown in the movie, why should he be right about portions that aren't? There doesn't have to be a contradiction to make it false. If it isn't shown on screen, then we have no idea if it would contradict what would be shown on screen. Meaning it's inconclusive.
@ That very, very, very annoying sound in my head that comes up when reading the post above me: Shuddap.
Advent
I can't help but repeat myself: the author was wrong about fight scenes that are shown in the movie, why should he be right about portions that aren't?
Because the author was "wrong" only when he was contradicted by a subsequent [higher] source.
Otherwise, the novelization remains C-canon, which you'll note is higher on the list than A[dvent]-canon, which might as well be N-canon.
In other words, G-canon > C-canon > N-canon > you. Let's not be difficult here.
Advent
There doesn't have to be a contradiction to make it false.
This is a terrible echo of your first attempt to cherrypick. Or, in otherwords, Hindenburg, the Sequel.
Advent
If it isn't shown on screen, then we have no idea if it would contradict what would be shown on screen. Meaning it's inconclusive.
The novelization is C-canon, Advent, and it was personally line edited by George Lucas. Until such a time that you can provide factual basis for the events, statements, and descriptions provided by the novelization to be false, it remains canon.
Originally posted by GideonDamn, did you all wake up on the wrong side of the bunk beds recently? Usually are tag-teaming (I love low-rent, drunk, sexual puns at 1 in the morning) other people rather than going at each other's throats.
Because the author was "wrong" only when he was contradicted by a subsequent [higher] source.Otherwise, the novelization remains C-canon, which you'll note is higher on the list than A[dvent]-canon, which might as well be N-canon.
In other words, G-canon > C-canon > N-canon > you. Let's not be difficult here.
This is a terrible echo of your first attempt to cherrypick. Or, in otherwords, Hindenburg, the Sequel.
The novelization is C-canon, Advent, and it was personally line edited by George Lucas. Until such a time that you can provide factual basis for the events, statements, and descriptions provided by the novelization to be false, it remains canon.
Okay, I just re-watched the scene and actually, it is canon. 😮
The reason being I believe is not solely because it isn't contradicted by anything, however. I should point out that, because I still don't agree with "if it isn't contradicted, it's true". It's canon because after the cut away (1:07), which occurs immediately after Anakin and Obi-Wan enter the room from the hallway. When it returns, we see Anakin putting (not already having it applied) Obi-Wan in a choke hold and does not have his lightsaber in hand. Obi-Wan loses his lightsaber after Anakin dropkicks him (1:23), but at 1:32 we can see Anakin pulls his lightsaber to him. Obviously when he put Kenobi in a choke hold, he wouldn't stash his saber away, so it must not have been in his possession. The novel then gives us the reason as to why Anakin doesn't have his blade there.
However, to True Jedi, this just shows that Obi-Wan wasn't trying to kill him until after 1:07 in the duel. Afterward, he is. As well, it still doesn't indicate that he could take Anakin head-on. Here's what it says:
"A roar of the Force blasted Obi-Wan back into a wall, smashing breath from his lungs, leaving him swaying, half stunned. Anakin stepped over bodies and lifted his blade for the kill.
Obi-Wan had only one trick left, one that wouldn't work twice-But it was a very good trick.
It had, after all, worked rather splendidly on Grievous . . .
He twitched one finger, reaching through the Force to reverse the polarity of the electrodrivers in Anakin's mechanical hand.
Durasteel fingers sprang open, and a lightsaber tumbled free.
Obi-Wan reached. Anakin's lightsaber twisted in the air and flipped into his hand. He poised both blades in a cross before him. "The flaw of power is arrogance."
"You hesitate," Anakin said. "The flaw of compassion-"
"It's not compassion," Obi-Wan said sadly. "It's reverence for life. Even yours. It's respect for the man you were."
He sighed. "It's regret for the man you should have been."
Anakin roared and flew at him, using both the Force and his body to crash Obi-Wan back into the wall once more. His hands seized Obi-Wan's wrists with impossible strength, forcing his arms wide. "I am so sick of your lectures!"
Dark power bore down with his grip.
Obi-Wan felt the bones of his forearms bending, beginning to feather toward the greenstick fractures that would come before the final breaks.
Oh, he thought. Oh, this is bad."
Alright, to analysis this information I dismissed: this clearly shows that Obi-Wan knew he couldn't stop Anakin head-on. He has to resort to a "trick" (fighting dirty) and forces Anakin's mechanical hand to drop his saber.
Notice that when Anakin says Obi-Wan is hesitating this is because he was talking rather than fighting. There was still a distance between them apparently. In other words, it was only a chance that he had to kill Anakin. It wasn't an opportunity that Anakin couldn't fight back against. This is obvious since Anakin does fight back and puts him in a choke hold, neutralizing that chance. There's nothing to indicate that had Kenobi immediately tried to do something, Anakin wouldn't have done the exact same thing, IMO.