Originally posted by Autokrat
Wait... what?Luke was able to keep himself from being moved by a supermassive black hole? A piece of natural phenomena with a mass in the order of millions (potentially billions) greater than the entire solar system?
I'm really hoping he was near the edges of the event horizon.
This really happened, surprisingly. Probably the most impressive feat in the SW mythos. Yet he couldn't defeat a member of the lost tribe of the sith. Gotta love GL
Originally posted by Autokrat
Wait... what?Luke was able to keep himself from being moved by a supermassive black hole? A piece of natural phenomena with a mass in the order of millions (potentially billions) greater than the entire solar system?
I'm really hoping he was near the edges of the event horizon.
Yeah, it was in Dark Nest. Though it is important to make the distinction that the black hole wasn't actually TRYING to move him, it just stated that it "nothing, not even the black hole in the center of the galaxy" could have moved him.
Ya it's that was rad. My favorite feat of Luke's is up for debate and I didn't even realize it till we did project holocron and Gideon was the guy who actually helped me figure it out even though he never realized it.
It was in the NJO when him jaina and Jacen were in a battlemeld fighting everyone and how the most logical explanation was that jaina and jacen were drawing off of not only their power reserves but Luke's as well and He was still rocking house.
xxxpoppunker182
Ya it's that was rad. My favorite feat of Luke's is up for debate and I didn't even realize it till we did project holocron and Gideon was the guy who actually helped me figure it out even though he never realized it.It was in the NJO when him jaina and Jacen were in a battlemeld fighting everyone and how the most logical explanation was that jaina and jacen were drawing off of not only their power reserves but Luke's as well and He was still rocking house.
It's not up for debate. Everything Luke did after the battlemeld was destroyed, i.e. Jacen and Jaina being rendered unconscious and/or kidnapped by Onimi, was by virtue of his own feats.
Everything prior to that, according to the Essential Guide to the Force, was the product of a Jedi battlemeld, in which all three contributed, basically pooling their reserves of Force energy into a mammoth spring of power. It also enhanced their skill and coordination and was "a technique [the Yuuzhan Vong] simply couldn't match."
Originally posted by Gideon
It's not up for debate. Everything Luke did after the battlemeld was destroyed, i.e. Jacen and Jaina being rendered unconscious and/or kidnapped by Onimi, was by virtue of his own feats.Everything prior to that, according to the Essential Guide to the Force, was the product of a Jedi battlemeld, in which all three contributed, basically pooling their reserves of Force energy into a mammoth spring of power. It also enhanced their skill and coordination and was "a technique [the Yuuzhan Vong] simply couldn't match."
So jacen and jaina combined have better/more force reserves than Luke?
xxxpoppunker182
So jacen and jaina combined have better/more force reserves than Luke?
Never said that.
A conclusion of the source material that Luke, Jaina, and Jacen's combined Force reserves > Luke's Force reserves, which should be obvious to anyone.
The fact of the matter is that the Essential Guide makes it abundantly clear: that feat of him taking on an army was not the product of his own energies and skill, but rather a heightened combination of three very talented fighters.
and i agree with that it just makes more sense that Lukes energies are the MAIN source of of the 3 combined. And that Jaina and Jacen were drawing off of the pool of energy bringing them closer to luke slvl and him going down closer to their lvl so instead of having 1 really awesome jedi and 2 mediocre jedi that they now have 3 awesome jedi.
Or somethin like that i can't remeber exactly how i wrded it and either way It doesnt matter because in your opinion and my opinion on Lotf luke we just don't see eye to eye.
xxxpoppunker182
It doesnt matter because in your opinion and my opinion on Lotf luke we just don't see eye to eye.
You're right: it doesn't matter, but not for the reasons you cite. The Essential Guide makes it abundantly clear that the battlemeld enhances the abilities of all Jedi involved which doesn't translate to Luke, in his infinite power, wisdom, knowledge, and handsomeness, lowering himself to allow Jacen and Jaina to draw upon Luke's abilities.
Hell, why would they? Jacen himself would later become the most powerful manifestation of the Force on record during his battle with Onimi, surpassing this state of Luke's and then some.
Originally posted by GideonHell, why would they? Jacen himself would later become the most powerful manifestation of the Force on record during his battle with Onimi, surpassing this state of Luke's and then some. [/B]
I had forgotten that. Does it actually say that? I was thinking the insinuation was that it was Jacen's most powerful manifestation of the Force ever. Not that I don't believe you, I just don't remember.
Side note as well:
(Oh, and since DN happened AFTER that, it would mean Luke still could theoretically taken that title from him with the "centered completely in the heart of the force....black hole, center of galaxy... etc." moment.
Also, in discussing the dovin basil, i don't think that feat compares to the DN moment. So when touting Luke's greatest feats, the DN moment should be considered, not the former.
The very concept of "pooling" your powers means to put them all together, then mutually utilize them.If you have three people buying a pizza, and one person puts in $7 and the other two only put in $4 a piece, you can still all get the same amount of pizza. It's not a "you each get out what you each put in" type of thing. That would be no different then each of them using their own powers.
truejedi
I had forgotten that. Does it actually say that? I was thinking the insinuation was that it was Jacen's most powerful manifestation of the Force ever. Not that I don't believe you, I just don't remember.
The Essential Guide to the Force says that Jacen "briefly transformed into the most powerful manifestation of the Force on record." And this is during Legacy of the Force.
truejedi
Side note as well:
(Oh, and since DN happened AFTER that, it would mean Luke still could theoretically taken that title from him with the "centered completely in the heart of the force....black hole, center of galaxy... etc." moment.
Not when the document was compiled and written, sorry.
truejedi
Also, in discussing the dovin basil, i don't think that feat compares to the DN moment. So when touting Luke's greatest feats, the DN moment should be considered, not the former.
The Dark Nest feat was extremely badass.
Originally posted by Gideon
Luke, in his infinite power, wisdom, knowledge, and handsomeness
I've never seen this side of you Gideon....
as to your argument about Jacen that doesn't matter. It's a different scenario just like the difference between anakin fighting dooku and anakin "in the zone" fighting dooku.
the scenario's have changed which is exactly what happened with jacen.
You yourself stated that Luke is the deadliest or best combatant in the SW mythos or something along those lines. AND that his raw power is above Sidious's. By the time of LOTF or the END of LOTF Luke is more powerful than DE sidious. Sidious is a close second behind him and in any fight between the 2 Luke is going to be very hardpressed to win and IMO he would win like 6/10 times.
this might make a little more sense too and I'm using your own words here. Luke "when he wants to be" is more powerful than anyone else in the SW mythos.
on a totally unrelated note hows the reconstruction thing goin it sounds interesting and I really wanna read through it.
poppunker182
I've never seen this side of you Gideon....
my disguise has slipped, egads!
Poppunker
as to your argument about Jacen that doesn't matter. It's a different scenario just like the difference between anakin fighting dooku and anakin "in the zone" fighting dooku.
It really does matter: Jacen apparently had enough energy and skill within him to, however briefly, become the most powerful manifestation of the Force on record -- surpassing, for a short time, Luke or the Emperor. So why he would be desperate for Luke's reserves of Force energy is... interesting.
Poppunker
the scenario's have changed which is exactly what happened with jacen.
The "scenario" is thus: the Essential Guide says that it was the product of a Jedi battlemeld. Luke's feats were not by virtue of his own natural strength, but a shared demonstration of power with Jacen and Jaina and of which he was the focal point. Meaning Luke did not slay an army with his own uber-l33t skillz. And nothing suggests he could replicate the feat again.
It is not, sir, up for discussion 'til Lucas gives you the power to overturn canon.
Poppunker
You yourself stated that Luke is the deadliest or best combatant in the SW mythos or something along those lines. AND that his raw power is above Sidious's. By the time of LOTF or the END of LOTF Luke is more powerful than DE sidious. Sidious is a close second behind him and in any fight between the 2 Luke is going to be very hardpressed to win and IMO he would win like 6/10 times.
See, this is the problem. I write a multi-page essay conclusively proving Sidious's status relative to others, and not only do you not accept it, but your counter-offer is an unsubstantiated line: "by the end of LotF Luke is more powerful than Sidious."
No.
In fact, hell no. This treads very closely to the DS rule of thought where we can just disregard canon whenever we please under three letter acronyms like PIS or CIS or something.
No.
No, Luke is not the strongest until you prove it. Saying it over and over and over again simply convinces you, not the rest of us. If you don't show any respect for my contention, proven by countless feats and quotes, why should I have any respect for yours, which is considerably less?
It's a combination of simple truths: Sidious's knowledge of the Force > Luke's knowledge of the Force, by miles. Sidious's mastery of the Force > Luke's mastery of the Force.
Raw power means jack. Otherwise, Anakin Skywalker circa Revenge of the Sith would absolutely annihilate both Luke and Sidious. So unless you want to agree to that, it's time to move on.
Poppunker
this might make a little more sense too and I'm using your own words here. Luke "when he wants to be" is more powerful than anyone else in the SW mythos.
When Luke wants to be, there are very few in the mythos who can touch him. Nowhere does a source state or suggest that he's more powerful than anyone ever.
Poppunker
on a totally unrelated note hows the reconstruction thing goin it sounds interesting and I really wanna read through it.
Sign up. 🙂
In fact, hell no. This treads very closely to the DS rule of thought where we can just disregard canon whenever we please under three letter acronyms like PIS or CIS or something.
Nobody ignored canon Gideon. If I said "This did NOT happen", that would be ignoring canon. No, what me and the majority of the people have suggested was that what happened was mainly determined by circumstance. Your only response is "nuh uh its canon". Wonderful.
Originally posted by GideonIt's a combination of simple truths: Sidious's knowledge of the Force > Luke's knowledge of the Force, by miles.
as to jacen becoming the most powerful manifestation and why. I still think my argument stands. IMO after the meld was broken it's not like luke and jacen and jaina were just out of force reserves and when one goes into "in the zone" state I don't think their force reserves, knowledge, or mastery of the force even matter. Just their potential. Because it's no longer them in a sense it's the force using them as an avatar for a time. same thing when anakin solo died.
To my knowledge the the force has a will of it's own and this thought isn't ludicrous.
Sidious's mastery of the Force > Luke's mastery of the Force.
This is up for debate. my reasons for this are(and here is where we differ in opinion because we can match up force feats of sids and Luke and to you sids force storm> Lukes ability to make real physical clones of ships, people, and stuff. where in my opinion it's the other way around)
Luke
In DN you are aware of his not being able to be moved by a The black hole at the center of the galaxy. which is bigger than any of the other black holes in their galaxy.
He can make physical copies of himself, others, ships. I'm sure you are aware of when he did it in DN and it drained him but by Betrayal he could do it without much effort.
You know he manipulated black whole and all that stuff. In fact you know everything that I could list so I don't think I need to bother.
I'd like to say I don't think anything the emperor has done is on this level of using the force like these two feats and there is nothing that can state what palpatine has done is a bigger more impressive feat than these BUT the exact same could be said towards luke. It is a matter of opinion as to who's force feats are greater/more impressive.
also I signed up last night just waiting for approval
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Yep. He makes copies of himself. I'm wondering if it was Luke's copy that had Jacen in the force hold because as I recall, nobody saw Luke on board prior to this engagement and after.
That is exactly how I read that too but it is only alluded to it's never stated and the only thing aside from no one seeing him prior was that Caedous stops and mentions how he didn't expect him to be on the cockpit 5 minutes after talking to him but not really giving it a second thought.