I've got some time to kill before my last, dreaded class.
Poppunker
as to jacen becoming the most powerful manifestation and why. I still think my argument stands. IMO after the meld was broken it's not like luke and jacen and jaina were just out of force reserves and when one goes into "in the zone" state I don't think their force reserves, knowledge, or mastery of the force even matter. Just their potential. Because it's no longer them in a sense it's the force using them as an avatar for a time. same thing when anakin solo died.To my knowledge the the force has a will of it's own and this thought isn't ludicrous.
I'm not sure you really offered a position, much less an argument. The Essential Guide to the Force explicitly states that when Jacen entered his battle with Onimi, he "briefly became the most powerful manifestation of the Force on record." The guide was written well into Legacy of the Force, specifically after the murder of Mara Jade Skywalker. It has taken into account Luke's feats in the New Jedi Order and Dark Nest series respectively, and the collective minds of the Jedi agree that Jacen's feat > Luke's feat of "rooting himself into the heart of the Force."
I'm not arguing what it takes to enter into such a state. Numerous characters seemingly become one with the Force at will. Obi-Wan Kenobi and Count Dooku throughout Revenge of the Sith, Galen Marek during the Force Unleashed, and Luke Skywalker in the Dark Nest crisis: numerous characters have entered into such a state on numerous occasions. How and why, and what exactly it requires to do so is unknown.
Poppunker
This is up for debate. my reasons for this are(and here is where we differ in opinion because we can match up force feats of sids and Luke and to you sids force storm> Lukes ability to make real physical clones of ships, people, and stuff. where in my opinion it's the other way around)
Asserting that Luke's ability to summon illusions and deceive the mentally deranged is more potent than Sidious's Force Storms or the blunting of Jedi sensitivity seems rather baseless. I could also assert that, since Jacen manipulated Luke via illusion in the final book in the Dark Nest trilogy as well as enjoyed "the most powerful manifestation of the Force on record," that he is more powerful than either Luke or Sidious. Likewise, I could assert that Yoda deflecting Dooku's Force lightning is greater than all of Luke's or Sidious's feats and when you disagree, chalk it up to a difference in opinion.
Opinions are fine. But when it comes to an application in an argument, bias must be checked at the door.
Analyze all feats, for example. Sidious's Force Storms were capable of devouring fleets of ships, each one capable of resisting gigatons of damage. They were also sufficient to "tear the surfaces off worlds" and teleport Luke Skywalker from Coruscant to a dungeon ship en route to Byss. The conjuring of such storms also required "mere thought or inclination."
That seems a great deal more powerful than manipulating a Sith Lord into thinking that there is a fleet out to kill him.
Likewise, if we're to compare mental manipulations: Darth Sidious exerted telepathic control over both General Grievous in Labyrinth of Evil and Galen Marek in the Force Unleashed novelization. He wasn't exploiting them, as Luke was with Jacen, he was exerting mental dominance over them, compelling them to obey his commands. Likewise, I could also point out that Sidious actively diminished the powers and senses of the collective Jedi at their height: ten thousand Jedi Knights and Masters spread over the distance of a galaxy. And he did so for thirteen years while simultaneously keeping his presence hidden with the Quey'tek discipline for hiding one's self in the Force.
If you're going to tell me that exacerbating paranoia in a mentally deranged Sith Lord > overwhelming ten thousand Jedi, I'm afraid we have a problem.
(The correct answer: Sidious's superiority in this regard is nigh incalculable.)
Poppunker
LukeIn DN you are aware of his not being able to be moved by a The black hole at the center of the galaxy. which is bigger than any of the other black holes in their galaxy.
A considerable, badass feat, yes. Yet I fail to see how this means that he is more powerful than the Emperor. You'll notice that Shimrra was able to force Luke to bow via manipulation of a dovin basal, until Jacen reversed it through Vongsense. Perhaps hyperbole? Perhaps it was due to the benefits afforded by rooting one's self into the heart of the Force? Who knows.
Poppunker
He can make physical copies of himself, others, ships. I'm sure you are aware of when he did it in DN and it drained him but by Betrayal he could do it without much effort.
I do recall him making illusions, yes. I do not recall the copies being manifest, i.e. Luke summoning matter from thin air.
Poppunker
You know he manipulated black whole and all that stuff. In fact you know everything that I could list so I don't think I need to bother.
A feat which, as I mentioned earlier, has yet to be substantiated or analyzed. Did he overpower the black hole in a tug-o'-war match or something else? When it's analyzed, I'll happily concede that point.
Poppunker
I'd like to say I don't think anything the emperor has done is on this level of using the force like these two feats and there is nothing that can state what palpatine has done is a bigger more impressive feat than these BUT the exact same could be said towards luke. It is a matter of opinion as to who's force feats are greater/more impressive.
But this isn't the case. You're looking evidence straight in the eye and saying that it doesn't matter, because in your opinion, Luke's is better. That's rather like me asserting that Cuba could take the USA in a fight, when all evidence points to the contrary. It might be my opinion, but it doesn't mean diddly in a debate and it certainly doesn't mean that your conclusion is as valid as someone else's.
Poppunker
also I signed up last night just waiting for approval
Validated. 🙂
Start contributing!!!!1!oneone!
Poppunker
In my opinion that alone surpasses Sidious abilities and it's something that sidious flat out can't do. In fact no one BUT luke can.
Prove that.
Originally posted by Gideon
I've got some time to kill before my last, dreaded class.I'm not sure you really offered a position, much less an argument. The Essential Guide to the Force explicitly states that when Jacen entered his battle with Onimi, he "briefly became the most powerful manifestation of the Force on record." The guide was written well into Legacy of the Force, specifically after the murder of Mara Jade Skywalker. It has taken into account Luke's feats in the New Jedi Order and Dark Nest series respectively, and the collective minds of the Jedi agree that Jacen's feat > Luke's feat of "rooting himself into the heart of the Force."
I never said that what Jacen did wasn't the most powerful force feat ever recorded.
Asserting that Luke's ability to summon illusions and deceive the mentally deranged is more potent than Sidious's Force Storms or the blunting of Jedi sensitivity seems rather baseless. I could also assert that, since Jacen manipulated Luke via illusion in the final book in the Dark Nest trilogy as well as enjoyed "the most powerful manifestation of the Force on record," that he is more powerful than either Luke or Sidious. Likewise, I could assert that Yoda deflecting Dooku's Force lightning is greater than all of Luke's or Sidious's feats and when you disagree, chalk it up to a difference in opinion.
the thing with jacen is that he doesn't the the control to just become that manifestation at will. that's why he isn't more powerful than luke or sids.
I understand what you're saying here though and i get it BUT which is the better feat winning WW1 winning WW2 winning the revolutionary war or winning the civil war? That is a matter of opinion.
Whats a better feat when Canada stormed and took control of a pirate boat or when we stormed normandy? I think this one is obvious and i don't need to point out which is a greater feat just like whats better Lukes ability to create real physical manifestations of ships(not simply illusions) I.E the jade shadow in DN or Yoda reflecting force lightning? It's obvious.
Analyze all feats, for example. Sidious's Force Storms were capable of devouring fleets of ships, each one capable of resisting gigatons of damage. They were also sufficient to "tear the surfaces off worlds" and teleport Luke Skywalker from Coruscant to a dungeon ship en route to Byss. The conjuring of such storms also required "mere thought or inclination."That seems a great deal more powerful than manipulating a Sith Lord into thinking that there is a fleet out to kill him.
so just because the darkside offers more destructive powers makes it more powerful than the lightside? I don't think so.
so because force lightning hurts someone and severing someong from the force doesn't, lightning>sever force? no
Likewise, if we're to compare mental manipulations: Darth Sidious exerted telepathic control over both General Grievous in Labyrinth of Evil and Galen Marek in the Force Unleashed novelization. He wasn't exploiting them, as Luke was with Jacen, he was exerting mental dominance over them, compelling them to obey his commands. Likewise, I could also point out that Sidious actively diminished the powers and senses of the collective Jedi at their height: ten thousand Jedi Knights and Masters spread over the distance of a galaxy. And he did so for thirteen years while simultaneously keeping his presence hidden with the Quey'tek discipline for hiding one's self in the Force.
so since Luke is a jedi and he wouldn't do some of the things sidious would(like killing jacen at the end of LOTF) he isn't as powerful as sidious?
If you're going to tell me that exacerbating paranoia in a mentally deranged Sith Lord > overwhelming ten thousand Jedi, I'm afraid we have a problem.(The correct answer: Sidious's superiority in this regard is nigh incalculable.)
first i was never trying to state this.
second prove that it was sidious ALONE who clouded the jedi's collective mind. Because as I understand it Sids wasn't actively putting forth effort to cloud the jedi every day. It is a culmination of what the sith have been doing for the last 1000 years otherwise before palpatine was even born Yoda or any wise master would have foreseen such a terrible event which is the Jedi purge.
A considerable, badass feat, yes. Yet I fail to see how this means that he is more powerful than the Emperor. You'll notice that Shimrra was able to force Luke to bow via manipulation of a dovin basal, until Jacen reversed it through Vongsense. Perhaps hyperbole? Perhaps it was due to the benefits afforded by rooting one's self into the heart of the Force? Who knows.
I'm not saying that feat makes Luke more powerful I'm saying that feat can attribute to his mastery of the force.
as to why he didn't do that in the NJO was because either PIS or that he couldn't because he doesn't do it until the end of the DN.
I do recall him making illusions, yes. I do not recall the copies being manifest, i.e. Luke summoning matter from thin air.
He does it to the jade shadow in the DN it drains him to the point of him physically resembling the emperor. Yes, he did make matter out of thin air which again attributes to his mastery of the force.
In Betrayal it's stated that he can now do this with little effort.
A feat which, as I mentioned earlier, has yet to be substantiated or analyzed. Did he overpower the black hole in a tug-o'-war match or something else? When it's analyzed, I'll happily concede that point.
He manipulated the gravity produced by the dovin basal to flip it in on itself. He didn't manipulate the dovin basal itself because at that point in the war no one had Vongsense and they never had the ability to manipulate the vong or their technology. So ya he overpowered a miniature black hole.
But this isn't the case. You're looking evidence straight in the eye and saying that it doesn't matter, because in your opinion, Luke's is better. That's rather like me asserting that Cuba could take the USA in a fight, when all evidence points to the contrary. It might be my opinion, but it doesn't mean diddly in a debate and it certainly doesn't mean that your conclusion is as valid as someone else's.
all the evidence doesn't point to Luke being inferior to sids and that sids>all in the SW mythos. it does however show that Sids and Luke are both extremely powerful but it shows tha Luke is number 1 and Sids is number 2.
Validated. 🙂
Start contributing!!!!1!oneone!
Prove that.
Prove that Luke can't do things Palpatine can do.
because that was exactly your argument.
and what is the highest canon? The way I see it is anything and everything GL states and says. am I right?
You'll have to excuse Gideon. He wasn't even able to offer so much as 1 iota of evidence of Jacen being "deranged", so he thinks repeating it will make it suddenly true. There is nothing to suggest Jacen was deranged. What Luke did had no "circumstances". You lose.
I do recall him making illusions, yes. I do not recall the copies being manifest, i.e. Luke summoning matter from thin air.
Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
beefingtonluke didnt learn the making physical copies of stuff until dn the illusions which is a different power was learned in de. also if u have read lotf u should know that jacen is in every way crazy.
Prove it. I've read the entire series more than on one occasion. He's a sith and by his own standards he's as sane as they come. He has an agenda and had one ever since his 5 year sojourn and he's carrying it out. Nothing remotely derranged about that.
And yes, I was talking about the illusion. I wonder which he did with Jacen.
Poppunker
I never said that what Jacen did wasn't the most powerful force feat ever recorded.
Good, then you needn't bring up the two feats in comparison to one another again. Because, as it stands, Jacen was able to root himself into the Force to an extent greater than Luke.
Poppunker
the thing with jacen is that he doesn't the the control to just become that manifestation at will. that's why he isn't more powerful than luke or sids.
No one is asserting that he is actively more powerful or more skilled than Luke or Sidious. What I'm trying to get at here is that all of Luke's major feats, which required active preparation or rooting one's self into the Force, aren't unique. Obi-Wan and Count Dooku rooted themselves in the Force to a considerable extent in Revenge of the Sith; Obi-Wan was described as a vessel for the Force, its avatar, whereas Dooku became "the axis of the universe." Galen Marek utilized the same technique to hold off the Emperor while simultaneously destroying his body, which combined with the Emperor's deflected lightning, destroyed the observation tower and caused considerable cosmetic damage to the Death Star. Lastly, we see that Jacen himself became one with the Force to an extent that the Essential Guide to the Force considers to be superior to all of Luke's feats of a similar nature.
Poppunker
I understand what you're saying here though and i get it BUT which is the better feat winning WW1 winning WW2 winning the revolutionary war or winning the civil war? That is a matter of opinion.
Not really.
Poppunker
Whats a better feat when Canada stormed and took control of a pirate boat or when we stormed normandy? I think this one is obvious and i don't need to point out which is a greater feat just like whats better Lukes ability to create real physical manifestations of ships(not simply illusions) I.E the jade shadow in DN or Yoda reflecting force lightning? It's obvious.
You'll have to quote the relevant passage; my books are spread over three locations: my dorm room, my mom's house, and my dad's. The Dark Nest trilogy is back at my dorm, so I'll need to see the relevant passage.
And it's funny that you think that Yoda's feat is obviously inferior, because I think it's pretty obvious that Force Storms and blunting Jedi sensitivity across a galactic scale > Force-assisted rigor mortis and making one's mentally deranged nephew see a fleet of ships. The degree by which is beyond calculation.
Poppunker
so just because the darkside offers more destructive powers makes it more powerful than the lightside? I don't think so.
The scale and power of energy (i.e. the Force) is something to consider. Yes, a Force Storm is more powerful than the feats you listed.
Poppunker
so because force lightning hurts someone and severing someong from the force doesn't, lightning>sever force? no
Faulty analogy. Severing and/or surpressing the Force abilities of another requires great technique and power to do: you're stifling the abilities of another person, suggesting greater strength.
Poppunker
so since Luke is a jedi and he wouldn't do some of the things sidious would(like killing jacen at the end of LOTF) he isn't as powerful as sidious?
Luke advocated the assassination (a slightly nicer way to say murder) of Caedus, but was too frightened to do so himself with the risk of falling to the dark side. Luke blew up a Death Star, killing millions of beings in one fell swoop, reiterated over and over again his intentions to kill Lomi Plo in the Dark Nest Crisis, and lastly butchered a Sith assassination team in a cat-and-mouse engagement, utilizing traps and blaster bolts.
As he admits to his son in Sacrifice, he has killed a lot of people. Let's face it, there is a cunning Machiavellian nature to Luke beneath the surface. Is he evil? Hardly. But he's not a saint, either.
Poppunker
first i was never trying to state this.
Sure seems like it.
Poppunker
second prove that it was sidious ALONE who clouded the jedi's collective mind. Because as I understand it Sids wasn't actively putting forth effort to cloud the jedi every day. It is a culmination of what the sith have been doing for the last 1000 years otherwise before palpatine was even born Yoda or any wise master would have foreseen such a terrible event which is the Jedi purge.
You're wrong.
Since you've claimed to read the essay, you'll no doubt remember the part where numerous sources concluded that Palpatine was the cause of the shroud of the dark side. If you want a concise answer: the Revenge of the Sith novelization concludes that "The darkness in the Force was no hindrance to the shadow [Palpatine]; it was the darkness."
More importantly, the nature of the Force began to change a hundred years or so prior to the coming of Darth Sidious. But Labyrinth of Evil noted that the Jedi weren't concerned; it clearly didn't diminish their capacity to use the Force.
And, by the way, if Palpatine's foresight isn't infallible, what leads you to believe that the Jedi, who subscribe to the notion that the Force is constantly in motion, would somehow enjoy superiority in that department? The fact that they did not sense the coming purges does not mean that their sense has always been blunted.
It was Palpatine.
Poppunker
I'm not saying that feat makes Luke more powerful I'm saying that feat can attribute to his mastery of the force.
Luke's mastery of the Force is not yet on the Emperor's level.
Poppunker
as to why he didn't do that in the NJO was because either PIS or that he couldn't because he doesn't do it until the end of the DN.
Or, better yet, perhaps (as Glentract has suggested) the feat itself is PIS? You shouldn't have opened the door on that one...
Poppunker
He does it to the jade shadow in the DN it drains him to the point of him physically resembling the emperor. Yes, he did make matter out of thin air which again attributes to his mastery of the force.
The passage, please.
Poppunker
In Betrayal it's stated that he can now do this with little effort.
Even if what you say is true, it's not exactly something that places him above the Emperor, otherwise Wyyrlok and Andeddu would be on par with Luke as well.
Poppunker
He manipulated the gravity produced by the dovin basal to flip it in on itself. He didn't manipulate the dovin basal itself because at that point in the war no one had Vongsense and they never had the ability to manipulate the vong or their technology. So ya he overpowered a miniature black hole.
Quote the relevant passage and submit it to a thread.
Poppunker
all the evidence doesn't point to Luke being inferior to sids and that sids>all in the SW mythos. it does however show that Sids and Luke are both extremely powerful but it shows tha Luke is number 1 and Sids is number 2.
For someone who has repeated "it's opinion, it's opinion," you sure do seem to be rather conclusive at this point.
Make up your mind.
As for the statement itself, no, Palpatine's feats eclipse Luke's.
Poppunker
Prove that Luke can't do things Palpatine can do.because that was exactly your argument.
Sorry, no, but I don't have to prove a negative. You made the claim: Palpatine can't replicate Luke's feats.
Now prove it or concede.
Gideon, I agree with most of what you're saying, but you did make the original assertion that the Emperor was beyond Luke (as I recall - but I could be wrong). And the whole prove a negative argument is kind of... suspect. Could one prove that a youngling can neither block, nor produce lightning? Of course. It's just becoming like the last theme around here of "absence of proof isn't proof of absence." That was used for a couple months, then was retired. Besides, we both know that you can prove that, if you so choose.
But, if it's him making the assertion (i.e. I was wrong about you making the inverse originally), then yes, the onus would be on him to produce reasonable and substantial evidence.
Darth Subjekt
Gideon, I agree with most of what you're saying, but you did make the original assertion that the Emperor was beyond Luke (as I recall - but I could be wrong). And the whole prove a negative argument is kind of... suspect. Could one prove that a youngling can neither block, nor produce lightning? Of course. It's just becoming like the last theme around here of "absence of proof isn't proof of absence." That was used for a couple months, then was retired. Besides, we both know that you can prove that, if you so choose.But, if it's him making the assertion (i.e. I was wrong about you making the inverse originally), then yes, the onus would be on him to produce reasonable and substantial evidence.
I made the claim that the evidence points to the Emperor being more powerful than Luke, and provided it. Nowhere did I say that the two necessarily possessed exclusive powers.
I don't have to prove that Luke can't perform the Emperor's feats. That's what the opposition is there to do.
If anyone can give me a good feat of Lukes that wasnt the result of a battlemeld or non comb at situation, then I would not say Bane wins.
I would say that now due to the fact that even if Luke cloaks himself AND hides in the force, Bane would just send out a shockwave forcing him to drop the cloak and then cut off his head or something.
Some1 plz prove me wrong.
PLZ.