Well that's the form that fought against Zangetsu and the Vizard, I don't remember which one went against Byakuya and Darku. Is she talking about Vizard Ichigo in those instances, where he's Bankai but has his Hollow mask on?
I remember the fight now, Love commented on how difficult the fight would be, and before Ichigo got the Cero off, he regained control and exploded, which broke his Hollow shell, and he came out with the Hollow Mask on.
I see, Sorry about the confusion. I can't Edit the opening post so i'll just write it here.
I'm going to say. There will be 2 rounds.
Round 1 is the Hollow that only uses the half mask. So the one that fought Byakuya and Darku.
Round 2 will be the fully turned hollow that fought the vizards and Zangetsu.
And of course both will be completely restored inbetween each round.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
^ Was a draw. Ichigo actually fainted first iirc.
It was not a draw. Both Ichigo and Kenpachi said Ichigo won
Here's why Ichigo won:
They both passed out around the same time, with Kenpachi standing just a tad longer to mutter to Ichigo that Ichigo won.
Why would both say Ichigo won? Simple: Ichigo won because Kenpachi's sword was cut in two, signifying that Ichigo had sharpened his reiryoku further than Kenpachi did. This signified Ichigo's will to win was stronger than Kenpachi's, which was a subject they were discussing earlier in their fight. IF neither of their swords broke, I would say Kenpachi won. Since these are Shinigami and their swords are an extension of their souls and they are very symbolic to the Shinigami, Ichigo definitely won. He not only won to both the characters Ichigo and Kenpachi, the creater himself says Ichigo won...and this was before Ichigo amped himself up.
Now, the stupid PIS in this manga has made it to where Kenpachi can stand on equal ground with the #5 espada, which shouldn't have been the case.
Oh well. PIS be damned.
So, Hollow Ichigo should win if you ignore PIS.
Originally posted by KingD19
Well Kenpachi only won against Nnoitra is because he used Kendo to make full use of his strength, which allowed him to cut Nnoitra's hierro, and exhaust his healing.I say Ichigo wins both scenarios a solid majority.
Kenpachi shouldn't have been able to keep up with #5 at all. Ichigo didn't know flash step until his Bankai training. He fought Kenpachi before his Bankai training. It's completely possible that Kenpachi refused to use his Flash Step to keep the match interesting....but that still doesn't account for a Bankai Ichigo, who is faster in his Bankai form than Byukuga (and Byukuga is one of the fastest Bleach characters), getting his butt handed to him by #5. However, it's entirely possible that Ichigo was so beat up and so exhausted from his fight with Grimmjow that he could not move nearly fast enough.
So, if we assume Kenpachi didn't use flash step and Ichigo couldn't move even fast enough to account for #5's sonido, then we can say that Kenpachi winning was PIS.
I wish it were as simple as Ichigo just being retardedly beaten up and exhausted. But didn't he get a tad bit of healing before he stood up against #5?
Orihime healed him for less than 5 minutes. The guy took a couple full force ceros, including a gran rey, he also took like 8 of those darts in the chest, and those are the same darts that decimated that building. He also got his ass whooped and sliced the whole fight. I don't think he was nearly healed enough for that to be considered a fair fight.
And every Captain must know the basics, Flash Steps included.
After he was fully healed, he was dancing around with Ulquiorra.
Originally posted by KingD19
Orihime healed him for less than 5 minutes. The guy took a couple full force ceros, including a gran rey, he also took like 8 of those darts in the chest, and those are the same darts that decimated that building. He also got his ass whooped and sliced the whole fight. I don't think he was nearly healed enough for that to be considered a fair fight.And every Captain must know the basics, Flash Steps included.
After he was fully healed, he was dancing around with Ulquiorra.
Okay. Fair enough. That makes me a feel a tad better about Kenpachi winning the fight against #5.
However, WHY would Kenpachi beat a #5 when Ichigo had a VERY hard time beating a #6? This doesn't account for Ichigo beating Kenpachi BEFORE Ichigo even went through his Bankai training. This is still PIS that needs to be resolved. Kenpachi shouldn't have stood a chance.
Originally posted by KingD19
Well, the only thing I can say is that as soon as Aizen left, everyone stepped their game up. Before that, the captains were already at the top, why should they do everything in their power to stay there? But when the Espada came along, they had to get serious, more intense training, etc...
Getting that much power in that amount of time has ONLY been done by Ichigo and Ichigo alone. It was said that it takes decades to master Bankai...and that is indeed how long it took Renji.
Ichigo is the ONLY person in all of bleach, other than Urahara, that can make such huge leaps of progress. Not even Byukuga can make that type of progress. Remember when Byukuga said that very few people ever achieve Bankai and that of those people, it takes years to develop?
On top of that, it took Renji and Rukia decades to become as strong as they did. We got to see flash backs of them training.
Originally posted by KingD19
Hey, that's the only thing I could think of. And it took Renji decades to get his Shikai, he got his Bankai using the same 3 Day Method Ichigo used.
No, Renji slowly cultivated his Bankai in that secret place so Byakuga wouldn't know about it as that training room hid reiryoku.
Originally posted by KingD19
And I wouldn't so much call it as getting stronger, as I would call it, getting back in your prime.
Oh.
Hmmm.
I have no canon rebuttal to this. So, that may be adequate enough.
Wait. No. 11th division squad is all about fighting and taking positions. Your point would work for any captain but the 11th division squad.
Originally posted by EvilAngel
But wait doesn't Zaraki say while fighting Nnoitra that this fight has taught him how to use his muscles again?Or something like that. Infact i'm sure he does.
That would fall under taunting. If the captains trained at all for the Esapda, then we would know that they did. Since they didn't train for the Espada and it wasn't mentioned anywhere in the manga as well, we are 100% they didn't train and any reasons that can be thought up are simply reasons to justify Kenpachi's PIS defeat of #5.
Originally posted by KingD19
Who in the 11th Division could put up any kind of challenge to Kenpachi??? Everyone either adores him, or is scared sh*tless by him, sometimes both.
He is constantly getting into fights because he loves to do it.
I think in the anime, he bacame a captain just a few years before the series starts. That means he was very much training for and eventuall killed the 11th squad captain.
And, we really don't have any evidence that Shinigami "get out of shape" or anything. I don't even recall that being an issue in the anime, either. Look at urahara. Been living on Earth completely sedentary. Then, when crap hits the fan, he's just as strong as most Esapda...and that was from a short fight with barely any effort.
Originally posted by KingD19
Yeah, looked over it again. He was already close to getting his Bankai, he just trained underground to get there all the way.
Yeah. That's right.
lol. Just messin'.
I must ask. Why is it that Kenpachi defeating Nnoitra was PIS and not Ichigo beating Kenpachi?
The way i see it, it could be either way. I mean, Ignoring Ichigo struggled to beat Renji, then was suddenly better than Kenpachi, passing it off as PIS Ichigo power boost
But there is one little thing that bugs me, and makes me think more so than actually the PIS was Ichigo beating Kenpachi in the first place. Generally, the captains are equal. So why can Ichigo Bankai-less beat Kenpachi and not even by close to Byakuya?
That doesn't make too much sense from my perspective
Originally posted by EvilAngel
I must ask. Why is it that Kenpachi defeating Nnoitra was PIS and not Ichigo beating Kenpachi?
Because Ichigo was at least a top lietenant level before he lost all of his abilities. He was able to defeat and almost kill Renji, who was a top lieutenant at the time. Keep in mind that Renji had almost mastered his bankai at that point and only required just about a month to finish.
The way i see it, it could be either way. I mean, Ignoring Ichigo struggled to beat Renji, then was suddenly better than Kenpachi, passing it off as PIS Ichigo power boost
But there is one little thing that bugs me, and makes me think more so than actually the PIS was Ichigo beating Kenpachi in the first place. Generally, the captains are equal. So why can Ichigo Bankai-less beat Kenpachi and not even by close to Byakuya?
That doesn't make too much sense from my perspective [/B][/QUOTE]
Originally posted by dadudemon
Because Ichigo was at least a top lietenant level before he lost all of his abilities. He was able to defeat and almost kill Renji, who was a top lieutenant at the time. Keep in mind that Renji had almost mastered his bankai at that point and only required just about a month to finish.
Mmm but the problem with this is that before this Ichigo beat Ikkaku. Who we are later told is stronger than Renji.
Meaning the first enemy Ichigo beat was the strongest below-captain person in Soul society.
PIS surely, right?
Especially if he then struggled with Renji.
Originally posted by EvilAngel
I must ask. Why is it that Kenpachi defeating Nnoitra was PIS and not Ichigo beating Kenpachi?
Because Ichigo was at least a top lietenant level before he lost all of his abilities. He was able to defeat and almost kill Renji, who was a top lieutenant at the time. Keep in mind that Renji had almost mastered his bankai at that point and only required just about a month to finish. That would put Renji at almost low level captaain, at the time.
Then, we have Ichigo who trains under Urahara for 10 days straight. Not only does he get his shinigami powers back, he learns a crapload from Urahara and becomes MUCH stronger than ever before. Definitely low level captain at this point...but not quite getting down physical sword fighting/martial art technique yet...as we see in his fight with Ikkaku.
Then, Ichigo fights Ikkaku who has learned his Bankai. That alone puts Ikkaku as a very strong opponent. Ichigo becomes stronger in his fights. So much so that in the time he fougth Ikkaku and the time he fights Kenpachi, Ikkaku remarks to Kenpachi that Ichigo has gotten much stronger since he fought him. Ikkaku is arguably stronger than Renji because Ikkaku is the one who took Renji under his wing and taught him how to do shikai and things like that. If anything, Ikkaku is low level captain. Ikkaku DOES have a bankai which is almost completely exclusive to the captains.
I see Ichigo being at marginally below average captain level when he fights Kenpachi. Since this was a pure power match and that's what Kenpachi excelled in, Ichigo, even being at captain level, was no match for Kenpachi. By the time Ichigo stops being a scardy cat, Ichigo is able to concentrate and use his bond with his Zanpkutou to become even stronger than Kenpachi. Both Kenpachi and Ichigo have UBER amounts of reiryoku, but Ichigo got the edge over Kenpachi by becoming one with his sword. (lol).
Everything lead up to Ichigo becoming progressively stronger. He barely beat Kenpachi with his life intact and it took everything he had and then stuff he learned during the fight to beat Kenpachi. Before tha fight, Ichigo didn't stand a chance against a fully released Kenpachi. This is what makes Ichigo so uber badass. He's like...worse than a Saiyan. lol
Originally posted by EvilAngel
The way i see it, it could be either way. I mean, Ignoring Ichigo struggled to beat Renji, then was suddenly better than Kenpachi, passing it off as PIS Ichigo power boost
The only difference is: Ichigo was shown from the beginning to make massive leaps in progress. He's the Naruto of Bleach. That's something that has been part of Ichigo's character since the beginning. Therefore, it isn't PIS for him to learn something about himself or his Powers and become stronger. Compared to everyone else in bleach, he has about a year of experience...? Whereas the Espada, Captains, and lieutenants all have a minimum of decades of experience and training.
Originally posted by EvilAngel
But there is one little thing that bugs me, and makes me think more so than actually the PIS was Ichigo beating Kenpachi in the first place. Generally, the captains are equal. So why can Ichigo Bankai-less beat Kenpachi and not even by close to Byakuya?
Simple. The captains, by far, are not equals. Byukuga would easily beat Kenpachi.
Yamamoto would easily beat all of the other captains cept MAYBE Aizen. He took on two of the strongest captains, alone.
If anything, Kenpachi is one of the weakest captains. Overall, that is actually true, if we take the official databook into consideration.
Originally posted by EvilAngel
That doesn't make too much sense from my perspective
Well, we know for a fact that the captains are not equal. Not even close to being equal. That's just from feats alone.
That point is further solidified by the official databook.
Even so i don't think that's an entirely accurate portrayal.
First of all, when Ichigo got that massive power boost in his first encounter with Renji we don't know anything about that. But it seems highly unlikely that was a constant power. If you ask me, his insane speed, his lack of reaction to pain, and even the look in his eye. I would say that is when his hollow manifested it's powers.
Captain level to lietenant is a big difference. Very big, and i think Ichigo crossed the gap far too simply. And as i said i think his defeat of Kenpachi was PIS.
Kenpachi at the same level of strength took on and won again two captain at the same time. Then defeated Tousens bankai. And matched the Foxman until he ran away to help Yamamoto.
I also must admit i don't fully grasp how Kenpachi defeating Nnoitra was pis.
Originally posted by dadudemon
It was not a draw. Both Ichigo and Kenpachi said Ichigo wonHere's why Ichigo won:
They both passed out around the same time, with Kenpachi standing just a tad longer to mutter to Ichigo that Ichigo won.
Why would both say Ichigo won? Simple: Ichigo won because Kenpachi's sword was cut in two, signifying that Ichigo had sharpened his reiryoku further than Kenpachi did. This signified Ichigo's will to win was stronger than Kenpachi's, which was a subject they were discussing earlier in their fight. IF neither of their swords broke, I would say Kenpachi won. Since these are Shinigami and their swords are an extension of their souls and they are very symbolic to the Shinigami, Ichigo definitely won. He not only won to both the characters Ichigo and Kenpachi, the creater himself says Ichigo won...and this was before Ichigo amped himself up.
Hmm, from that point of view, I suppose you are right. Ichigo did win.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Because Ichigo was at least a top lietenant level before he lost all of his abilities. He was able to defeat and almost kill Renji, who was a top lieutenant at the time. Keep in mind that Renji had almost mastered his bankai at that point and only required just about a month to finish. That would put Renji at almost low level captaain, at the time.
When they first met, Ichigo wasn't at the level of a top lieutenant. He got more powerful during the fight, and it was enough to beat a Renji at 1/5 his normal power. Lieutenants and Captains have their power lowered to a fifth of what it normally is when they enter the human dimension.
I don't recall anything being said about the limit not being placed, though I may be wrong.
Originally posted by EvilAngel
Even so i don't think that's an entirely accurate portrayal.First of all, when Ichigo got that massive power boost in his first encounter with Renji we don't know anything about that. But it seems highly unlikely that was a constant power. If you ask me, his insane speed, his lack of reaction to pain, and even the look in his eye. I would say that is when his hollow manifested it's powers.
Captain level to lietenant is a big difference. Very big, and i think Ichigo crossed the gap far too simply. And as i said i think his defeat of Kenpachi was PIS.
Kenpachi at the same level of strength took on and won again two captain at the same time. Then defeated Tousens bankai. And matched the Foxman until he ran away to help Yamamoto.
I also must admit i don't fully grasp how Kenpachi defeating Nnoitra was pis.
Ichigo never had a hollow half when he first met Renji. It was probably his determination to win manifesting itself. That same determination & will manifests when he trains with Urahara. That is also part of his power.
If the amp Ichigo got when he fought against Kenpachi was permanent, then it means that he obviously would be more powerful while using Bankai. Curbstomping more powerful once he became proficient with his Vizard powers.
Seeing as a vizard Ichigo in control of his hollow powers just scraped through the fight against the 6th Espada, he considers it PIS as there was no way a weaker character would be able to defeat the 5th Espada, given that there was no way Kenpachi could have become that powerful in approximately three months.
Had he learned his zanpakutou's name and learned shikai, it might have been a different story.