Hollow Ichigo vs Zaraki Kenpachi

Originally posted by NemeBro
14. All the "injuries" he sustained? So a little cut on his palm, a flesh wound on his cheek, a small cut on his forearm, and only one lethal stab to the chest, equal the large gash under Kenny's eye, and the two large cuts on Kenny's mid-section? Not to mention unlike Ichigo, Kenny's wounds were not closed up.

One wound was closed up. And the gash to Kenpachi's face is not as debilitating as as the gash to Ichigo's primary sword arm. This is hardly a small wound.

Justa mere flesh wound, right? Looks like he came really damn close to getting his damn hand cut off.

But, now you're admitting I was right, so I guess I should be thankful.

Originally posted by NemeBro
15. Okay now, I know you're kind of slow, but try to bear with me, okay?

Ichigo had a few things happen for him during that amp, that have never happened again. Zangetsu was able to block his wounds is the first one, and that is before he received even more power from Zangetsu and was something he has never done again, Zangetsu was fighting totally in tandem with him, holding his sword with him, something that does not happen in every fight, if ever at all, and his aura manifested itself into his Hollow Mask. All of these never happened again. But...We have to assume this amp was permanent, right?

The evidence is in my favor, to deny this is to be a butthurt fanboy.

I know your slow but try to bear with me, okay?

Ichigo hadn't fully subjugated his zanpakutou yet. The materialization of zangetsu was only seen by Ichigo, so it wasn't a full subjugation yet, either. The swinging in tandem was a metaphor for Ichigo being one with his sword. GASPITY! A JAPANESE METAPHOR ABOUT BEING ONE WITH THE SWORD! NO WAY! 😆 And, you idiot. If the "hallow mask" energy face means he was using his hallow powah, then so was Kenpachi...if we are to apply your broken logic.

Originally posted by NemeBro
2. No, no he did not. I just read the whole fight, this never ****ing happened. He never adapted his Reitsu to Ichigo. Shut up with that shit.

Riiiiiight.

Booya, mother ****er:

But, wait, some how, you're going to justify that the energy that is starting to come off of him in the previous two pages and this one showing him going apeshit, as not amping at all. K, fine. We're done with this point cause you're definitely wrong.

Originally posted by NemeBro
17. And you once again miss my point again. For someone who is apparently so intelligent and awesome, you sure are slow, huh?

Dude...this is weird as ****. Y-you.

I-I.

I'm speechless. This level of idiocy is your aboslute highest. (Not lowest...think about it.)
I just pwned your ass hardcore with your own words...and now you counter with saying, "oooooh man. You're sooo stupid. You missed my point again."

Instead of completely dodging your own self pwnage, just post, "awwww ****. Kind of screwed myself there, didn't I?"

Originally posted by NemeBro
I had to split my post because it was too long.

Thanks for letting us know. 👆

Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree. Kenpachi didn't and couldn't push Sajin away. He flipped him like a wrestler.

And, are you trying to say that Ichigo was (at the time) stronger than both Tousen and Sajin put together?

Well unlike you guys i won't say i know because i don't. But just as i see it. The only thing that makes sense to me is that after Ichigo's inner battle with his Hollow from that moment onward in the fight he was fighting with his resolve turned up high. (Just to clarify, during the Kenpachi vs Ichigo fight)

From my perspective Byakuya is physically weaker in terms of brute strength than Kenpachi and the battle data also says that to be true if you consider it accurate. Yet Ichigo and Byakuya seem to be on about the same strength level when they fight every time after the Kenpachi fight. Which doesn't make sense if you consider the Kenpachi fight, and like me if you consider Kenpachi to be stronger.

To get to the point the reason i think Kenpachi is stronger than Sajin is simply because he was able to take not only his attack but another enemy of captain level too simultaneously and stop them dead. Both of them seemly truly surprised at this, so i am lend to believe they were not holding back.

To answer your question, no i do not believe that to be true. Perhaps if Ichigo's resolve was as strong as it can be.... i think it's possible, but normally? two words; Hell no.

But that's just me and how i perceive it ;p

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Well unlike you guys i won't say i know because i don't. But just as i see it. The only thing that makes sense to me is that after Ichigo's inner battle with his Hollow from that moment onward in the fight he was fighting with his resolve turned up high. (Just to clarify, during the Kenpachi vs Ichigo fight)

From my perspective Byakuya is physically weaker in terms of brute strength than Kenpachi and the battle data also says that to be true if you consider it accurate. Yet Ichigo and Byakuya seem to be on about the same strength level when they fight every time after the Kenpachi fight. Which doesn't make sense if you consider the Kenpachi fight, and like me if you consider Kenpachi to be stronger.

To get to the point the reason i think Kenpachi is stronger than Sajin is simply because he was able to take not only his attack but another enemy of captain level too simultaneously and stop them dead. Both of them seemly truly surprised at this, so i am lend to believe they were not holding back.

To answer your question, no i do not believe that to be true. Perhaps if Ichigo's resolve was as strong as it can be.... i think it's possible, but normally? two words; Hell no.

But that's just me and how i perceive it ;p

This is why you're sexy. Even when I get pwned by you, you still do it elegantly.

So, yeah, I agree. I don't see Ichigo being stronger than those two. And, I only see Kenpachi using Sajin's strength against him by flipping him. I would put their strength close.

Another question....does reiryoku directly or indirectly translate to physical strength?

Another way to state that...which comes first, the chicken or the egg? Lemme expand on that: does one get more physical strength from reiryoku, or does increasing physical strength through training increase reiryoku? This, of course, assumes that the two are related. The databook would inidcate otherwise as Byakuya is obviously really strong, but not as strong as Kenpachi or Sajin...but he still has more reiryoku than most captains.

Originally posted by dadudemon
This is why you're sexy. Even when I get pwned by you, you still do it elegantly.

So, yeah, I agree. I don't see Ichigo being stronger than those two. And, I only see Kenpachi using Sajin's strength against him by flipping him. I would put their strength close.

Another question....does reiryoku directly or indirectly translate to physical strength?

Another way to state that...which comes first, the chicken or the egg? Lemme expand on that: does one get more physical strength from reiryoku, or does increasing physical strength through training increase reiryoku? This, of course, assumes that the two are related. The databook would inidcate otherwise as Byakuya is obviously really strong, but not as strong as Kenpachi or Sajin...but he still has more reiryoku than most captains.

Hahah, only sometimes dear ;p

Yes, i can see what you mean, that flip does seem like the typical wrestlers move to use ones own strength against him.

I do not know. I would assume it does simply because of Aizen being able to stong Ichigo's blade with a finger. I mean, Ichigo is very muscular. So it would have to, to atleast a small extent i should thing. This would explain how people with powerful reiryoku/reiatsu usually overpower those who have weaker reiryoku/reiatsu.

I personally would suspect it's about translation. Just because you have so much reiryoku/reiatsu does not mean you are able to use it all so effectively in one area. Byakuya is a very balanced fighter, so it makes sense he's not as 'strong' as Sajin or Kenpachi.

Just an idea that last one, but so much of bleach is unexplained all we can do is call it as we see it.

To answer my own thread, no clue, but it would be a fight to see =)

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Hahah, only sometimes dear ;p

Yes, i can see what you mean, that flip does seem like the typical wrestlers move to use ones own strength against him.

I do not know. I would assume it does simply because of Aizen being able to stong Ichigo's blade with a finger. I mean, Ichigo is very muscular. So it would have to, to atleast a small extent i should thing. This would explain how people with powerful reiryoku/reiatsu usually overpower those who have weaker reiryoku/reiatsu.

I personally would suspect it's about translation. Just because you have so much reiryoku/reiatsu does not mean you are able to use it all so effectively in one area. Byakuya is a very balanced fighter, so it makes sense he's not as 'strong' as Sajin or Kenpachi.

Just an idea that last one, but so much of bleach is unexplained all we can do is call it as we see it.

To answer my own thread, no clue, but it would be a fight to see =)

K. And that explanation makes sense. Indeed, Byakuya would be a good example of someone using their reiryoku efficiently.

And, from what we can see, Kido is a very powerful tool. That's why Byakuya is rated so high in the databook: fast, strong, can use high level kido, has lots of reiryoku, etc.

To bring it back down to the real point of the thread, how about we rate Ichigo against the other captian's score as they appear in the databook?

And, btw, which Ichigoare we using again? Is it the tailed hallow ichigo, or the hallow ichigo that started to beat down Byakuya? I forgot what you said.

Originally posted by dadudemon
K. And that explanation makes sense. Indeed, Byakuya would be a good example of someone using their reiryoku efficiently.

And, from what we can see, Kido is a very powerful tool. That's why Byakuya is rated so high in the databook: fast, strong, can use high level kido, has lots of reiryoku, etc.

To bring it back down to the real point of the thread, how about we rate Ichigo against the other captian's score as they appear in the databook?

And, btw, which Ichigoare we using again? Is it the tailed hallow ichigo, or the hallow ichigo that started to beat down Byakuya? I forgot what you said.

It's the only thing i can think of that would make some kind of sense. But it could be I'm drawing lines where there are none. As someone in here said it could just be Tibo making things up as he does along ^^' but i prefer not to think that ;p

Well that's a good question. To be honest i wouldn't have a clue. I guess through comparison with other characters it could be decided. But that might be too vague to use even if we did calculate it ;p

I said both, but unless Kenpachi uses two hands he won't stand a chance against the Lizard due to the instant regeneration. But that's not really what i had intended.

So just the one that fought Byakuya.

Here's an observation i made just now. Which is the Ichigo that fought Byakuya is (or so we can assume) the version which Ichigo fought in his inner world for dominance during the vizard training.

Ichigo when his resolve was absolute beat that Hollow. So if we then assume This hollow Ichigo, however strong, is weaker than Ichigo whose resolve is strong, then it seems to me this is indeed a good match =) Considering in my opinion i would rate Hollow Ichigo more skillful than normal ichigo. The fight between the two proves it for me ^^

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Ichigo when his resolve was absolute beat that Hollow. So if we then assume This hollow Ichigo, however strong, is weaker than Ichigo whose resolve is strong, then it seems to me this is indeed a good match =) Considering in my opinion i would rate Hollow Ichigo more skillful than normal ichigo. The fight between the two proves it for me ^^

So, you're saying that Ichigo's inner hallow is more skillful than regular ichigo...as evidenced by his pwnage against Byakuya, right?

Going by that, we do know that regular ichigo beat that hallow in his mind.

About all of that:

All forms are Ichigo, though. They are different manifestions of Ichigo's personality. From Zangetsu, to hallow Ichigo, to Ichigo himself. Zangetsu is just an extension of his very own soul. Just different parts of himself. It's all....kind of....crazy. I can't put it any other way. They are all part of ichigo's soul. It's really weird. It means that every shinigami has mental problems with distinct personalities. I remember talking to Nemebro about this along time ago. The fact that their personality can be broken down into any more than one ego means they have schizophrenia. This means that every single shinigami and Stark have some form of schizophrenia.

Subjugating one's zanpakutou is really just a metaphor for gaining confidence and skill. It's not literally subjugating an entity that is wholly separate away from the shinigami.

I hate to use this as an example, but think of it in terms of horcruxes from harry potter, cept without the evilness involved with having separate pieces of your soul.

It's like Kubo wanted to create avatars, pokemon, or digimon for his charcters, but without making it seem so kiddie.

^ More than one personality would be DID (Dissociative identity disorder), not Schizophrenia.

It's hard to define it as personality though, or as anything for that matter. Zangetsu could be the 'physical' embodiment of Ichigo's shinigami reiryoku. Meh. Hollow Ichigo seems to be a completely different entity, akin to a parasite using a host for survival.

Originally posted by dadudemon
So, you're saying that Ichigo's inner hallow is more skillful than regular ichigo...as evidenced by his pwnage against Byakuya, right?

Going by that, we do know that regular ichigo beat that hallow in his mind.

About all of that:

All forms are Ichigo, though. They are different manifestions of Ichigo's personality. From Zangetsu, to hallow Ichigo, to Ichigo himself. Zangetsu is just an extension of his very own soul. Just different parts of himself. It's all....kind of....crazy. I can't put it any other way. They are all part of ichigo's soul. It's really weird. It means that every shinigami has mental problems with distinct personalities. I remember talking to Nemebro about this along time ago. The fact that their personality can be broken down into any more than one ego means they have schizophrenia. This means that every single shinigami and Stark have some form of schizophrenia.

Subjugating one's zanpakutou is really just a metaphor for gaining confidence and skill. It's not literally subjugating an entity that is wholly separate away from the shinigami.

I hate to use this as an example, but think of it in terms of horcruxes from harry potter, cept without the evilness involved with having separate pieces of your soul.

It's like Kubo wanted to create avatars, pokemon, or digimon for his charcters, but without making it seem so kiddie.

Yes, and no, but more yes. I refer to the time the Hollow pointed out most of Ichigo's moves are just a rip off of his. That Ichigo was only a 'pathetic fake' if i remember correctly. Besides, you see how he fought Muramasa? he got defeated but not through lack of skill that's for sure.

I prefer to distinguish a different between normal Ichigo and Ichigo which a strong resolve, as the power difference between them is large.

I can see how this conclusion has been come to, yet i also disagree. I think they are separate entities from their Shinigami. The reason being purely on Hitsugaya's sword. It is said to appear every 100 years, or 1000. I realise the movie is none canon but it does attempt to make a point as to exactly what Zanpactou are. As i see it, Zanpactou are recurring spirits who appear in shinigami. Why, how, i don't know, i don't even think the likely hood of this is remotely high. But it's how i see it, and it makes the most sense which doesn't make them all seem crazy ;p

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Yes, and no, but more yes. I refer to the time the Hollow pointed out most of Ichigo's moves are just a rip off of his. That Ichigo was only a 'pathetic fake' if i remember correctly. Besides, you see how he fought Muramasa? he got defeated but not through lack of skill that's for sure.

I prefer to distinguish a different between normal Ichigo and Ichigo which a strong resolve, as the power difference between them is large.

I can see how this conclusion has been come to, yet i also disagree. I think they are separate entities from their Shinigami. The reason being purely on Hitsugaya's sword. It is said to appear every 100 years, or 1000. I realise the movie is none canon but it does attempt to make a point as to exactly what Zanpactou are. As i see it, Zanpactou are recurring spirits who appear in shinigami. Why, how, i don't know, i don't even think the likely hood of this is remotely high. But it's how i see it, and it makes the most sense which doesn't make them all seem crazy ;p

Yeah, Gin said that Toshiro was a shinigami that was born once a century. No doubt that Gin was indirectly complimenting himself because just 100 years prior, Gin made a similar "genius" feat through the academy. But his zanpakutou...I'm not sure about that. I don't remember it saying anywhere in the manga that his zanpakutou was born once a century in a shinigami. That couldn't be possible unless the owner dies repeatedly with new reicarnations. The case with Yamamoto...his zanpakutou has existed for at least 2000 years. At least. That's how long ago he founded the school. They say it has the highest attack power....so, it is very unlikely that they mean it is reborn every s often. Agreed? It just means that it has the highest attack power. Same with Rukia: Toshiro's zanpakutou's powers are obviously greater in ability when compared to Rukia's...because they are both ice based.

But, yeah, I don't REALLY think they are all schizophrenic. I was being a tad facetious there when I said that. And, yes, they are literally separate physical entities such as in the case of subjugating them for the purposes of bankai. But, imo, they are more like horcruxes separate pieces of the whole soul.

So, going by this. Someone who is a master of everything about their soul, such as Yamamoto, would basically be sort of like Nirvana for them. lol Reaching complete control over every aspect of their personality and thoughts. This could be why Yamamoto's zanpakutou didn't go along with muramasa's technique of tricking and controlling zanpakutou....Yamamoto had complete mastery over his.

Dude, if most shinigami had Schizophrenia, Aizen wouldn't need his shikai at all 😛.

It was in Diamond Dust Rebellion. Because one sword chose two Shinigami, but that wasn't allowed, so they had to fight for it, and ultimately to the death.

I really can't recall clearly enough, i would have to watch it again.

As i say it's unlikely, but i prefer that over thinking they're all crazy ;p

Originally posted by EvilAngel
It was in Diamond Dust Rebellion. Because one sword chose two Shinigami, but that wasn't allowed, so they had to fight for it, and ultimately to the death.

I really can't recall clearly enough, i would have to watch it again.

As i say it's unlikely, but i prefer that over thinking they're all crazy ;p

Yeah, I haven't seen diamond dust rebellion. It seems, though, that he writers took zanpakutou's out of context. They are actually part of the shinigami's soul and not actually a wholly separate sentient being.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yeah, I haven't seen diamond dust rebellion. It seems, though, that he writers took zanpakutou's out of context. They are actually part of the shinigami's soul and not actually a wholly separate sentient being.

Yes they are a part of their Shinigami's soul. But within that soul they are seperate entities. Think of them as only able to exist within those souls. But when that person dies, it is not the end of them, they can reappear in another person soul given great time.

Or something like that. Atleas that's why Diamond Dust Rebellion would have us believe, which i choose to follow ;p

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Yes they are a part of their Shinigami's soul. But within that soul they are seperate entities. Think of them as only able to exist within those souls. But when that person dies, it is not the end of them, they can reappear in another person soul given great time.

Or something like that. Atleas that's why Diamond Dust Rebellion would have us believe, which i choose to follow ;p

AHHH!

Well, reincarnation is not new to Eastern culture, so that's believable. Instead of the whole soul being reborn, it is a certain aspect of that soul. I can buy that.

Originally posted by dadudemon
It is true the Kenpachi held back against Ichigo UNTIL he took his patch off and put everything he had into their final strike. Ichigo had a mortal wound. From what we could see, Kenpachi did not have any mortal wounds. He had some nice Gashes and a deep wound on his left upper body, but nothing mortal like Ichigo's wound.

Mortal wounds? He took over a dozen blows from a sword like Zangetstu, he was cut on both sides of his neck at the base of his shoulders and took a shot striaght through his face. At the very LEAST he took enough damage to equate several mortal wounds before removing his eyepatch. Anyone other than Kenny would have been done for. Even Ikkaku got obliterated by 1 shot like what Kenny was taking.

Originally posted by dadudemon
If you want to argue the two handed sword strike, that's cool. Kenpachi didn't think of that until his fight with #5. Had he done that, he would have cut Ichigo in half.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, Kenpachi did not fight Sajin and Tousen at once. He really fought Tousen 98% of the time with Sajin only preventing the killing blow.

Yeah he did, nay-say all you like doesn't change the fact that he held them both off at once using shikais and then forced them into using bankai.
The only time he focused on Tousen was after his bankai release, for obvious reasons doesn't change what happened before.

Originally posted by dadudemon
If you want to go by Anime feats, cool. That just makes it even more PIS. If you want to say that Kenpachi is physically stronger than Sajin, then I call BS on feats alone. Sajin was about to destroy Kenpachi with his Bankai. Tousen could have easily killed Kenpachi with his Bankai. Kenpachi certainly could not beat either of those two captains, even with his PIS win against #5.

What feats?
In both the anime AND the Manga Kenpachi parries a two handed strike from both Tousen AND Sajin who were putting their full body weights into it, holding his sword with one hand. 😕
And, Kenpachi still did this with his eyepactch on, covered in wounds from Ichigo from 3 days earlier, and having just taken the full on Shikai attacks of both captains.... How on earth you can possibly draw yourself to the conclussion that Kamamura is well beyond me, but please do tell I'd love to know, especially given that Kenny was the one to cut through the toughest Hierro of the Espada.

Likewise, prove your case that Sajin was about to destroy Kenpachi.. please.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Tousen could have easily killed Kenpachi with his Bankai. Kenpachi certainly could not beat either of those two captains, even with his PIS win against #5.

"I don't like it, it didn't happen".

Originally posted by dadudemon
Your claim that Ichigo used his hallow powers against Kenpachi are not completely unfounded as Yuroichi did find his mask on him after she rescued him. Fact is, both Ichigo and Kenpachi would have died without aid. Both passed out and both could not stand.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Also, I forgot to mention on my last post: you said something about hallow ichigo being part of that fight based on the energy face seen behind ichigo.

By that faulty logic, then Kenpachi was using his hallow powers too. 😐

Originally posted by dadudemon
I posted the scan where it was said "as high as or higher" than Kenpachi. You can claim whatever you want, I'm sticking to the manga. 😐

Originally posted by dadudemon
If you want to argue about something that you're clearly wrong about, that's fine. I wont' continue it. The mere fact that he goes on to say that Byakuya being the strongest head of the four noble families, EVER, should be evidence enough of his strength. 😬

Is Kenpachi of the four noble families? No..... Okay point?
You may as well say he's as strong as all the Espada based on that "faulty logic"...

Originally posted by dadudemon
A berserker does not fight intelligently.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You are also using Wiki too much.

Originally posted by dadudemon
We have slight intelligence from him: Using his reflexes to prevent himself from getting a mortal wound, and remembering his kendo training in a fight that he was about to get killed in. Other than that, nothing he has done in a fight was anymore intelligent than just using his reiryoku, reietsu, and strength that seems to be natural to him. He said that he didn't like to use tricks like that kendo one. He shies away from tricks.

Example: Kenpachi accurately figures that Gin left Ichigo alive on purpose outside the front gate of the Seretei.
Accurately assesses that Ichigo and Renji are in combat halfway across the Seretei.
In the anime pinpoints Ichinose's position and figures out who was infiltrating the Seretei when everyone else had a mass issue doing so.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, I'd say absurdly faster. Much much faster.

But, get this, Kenpachi was able to keep up with #5 because he's so strong that he doesn't HAVE to use shunpu. His legs are able to make him go fast. 😐 This is another reason Kenpachi is my fave...he's just a f***ing hoss.

But nonsense, Byakuya's not "absurdly faster" or "much much faster" than Kenpachi.
Kenpachi was able to practically teleport on Ichigo during their fight twice, at a point that Ichigo claimed he could read all of Byakuya's movements.
In the Anime, Kenny EASILY contends with Ichinose's shunpo who by all appearances seemed to have Ichigo at his mercy in a flash step contest.
He was able to cover a mass distance to save Ichigo before he got hammered by Telsa, appearing seemingly out of nowhere even though they were surrounded by a desert.
And finally able to keep up with Sonido against Nnoitra

Byakuya couldn't outmatch the speed of a SEVERLY wounded Ichigo who had just been fighting Kenpachi, possibly less than an hour before hand. How in the hell is he "much much faster"..... If you're talking about his Zenbanzakura, that's a totally different story.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, that's incorrect. Reread chapter 144. It broke ON him. Byakuya's spiritual pressure was so great and Renji so debilitated that Renji lost that ability to even cut Byakuya anymore.

Since we know for a fact that Byakuya's spiritual power is as large as or greater than Kenpachi's, we know that this is really what happened, not your botched up bastard interpretation.

Still looks like he hit him with the stump of his blade, doesn't really matter either way though. Given the fact that Renji's Zanpactou quite literally disintigrated in his hands it really doesn't come off anywhere near as impressive as what Kenny did.

Originally posted by dadudemon
His zanpakutou is already in it's released state. Regardless of what stuff was made up in the anime, it was stated in the manga that Ichigo and Kenpachi both have constantly released zanpakutou. That's the end of that.

Originally posted by dadudemon
His CIS, as you put it, is the cause of PIS, which is Tousen swearing he was going to kill Kenpachi, then not doing it in the first strike. How is that not utterly retarded? That was fully within his capability. Just as I asked before, was Tousen just trying to torture Kenpachi? That's not like Tousen's character to do that. It's just plain jane PIS.

It was CIS that was influencing both sides of the fight.
Tousen's was that he didn't kill Kenny in the first strike, Kenny's was that he didn't just remove his eyepatch and blow Tousen's Bankai like he did Ichinose's.... AS WELL AS him being distracted and unfocused enough by Tousen's Bankai reveal to allow Tousen to land that first blow in the first place...

Kenny a character praised by the 13 court guard squad as on of the best in sheer fighting ability, and one who berrates others for losing focus during a fight, and who's focus on the fight is so great that Myori asserts not to interfere in his fights.....

LOST HIS FOCUS enough to be hit by a strike that he was shown consistently and repeatedily capible of avoiding....

Yeah not PIS, you just don't like it.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Again, it wasn't really a 2 versus 1 match. Tousen pretty much did the whole thing solo.

Originally posted by dadudemon
And he handed that Fraccion his ass. That Fraccion also beat a character that is approaching captain level. (Ikkaku)

Originally posted by dadudemon
PIS (or CIS, as you put it) certainly cannot account for the logical fact that IF Tousen was really trying to kill Kenpachi and not dick around, he would have chopped his head off, first thing. That was my point.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Kenpachi doesn't stand a chance against any Bankai, if there is no sort of CIS involved. (I like this CIS. CIS is the cause of PIS, sometimes, but I think I'll start using the two initialisms. hehe!)

Originally posted by dadudemon
Now now. Watch the personal insults.

For someone to willfully over look the point I made and then say what you just did above is ignorance. However, you DIDN'T miss my point, you commented on it, and later you said what you did just above. That's worse than ignorance. 😐

Simply following your fine example hypocrite.

Originally posted by dadudemon
If you think for an instant that Kenpachi stands a chance against any captain's bankai, CIS aside, you're just another blind fanboy.

Kenpachi has already beaten 2 Captains who used Bankai to against him, and an Espada's Released state. CIS played more against Kenny than Tousen in their fight. Honeslty... stop this nonsense.

Originally posted by dadudemon
They aren't captains, though. If they were to become captains, I'd say that they both would lose to Kenpachi. Well, depends. Renji may destroy Kenpachi with that blast thingie. But I don't see them beating Kenpachi, even with their bankais.

I will then take this as your concession that Bankai doesn't = Victory with Kenpachi.....

Concession accepted, so drop that nonsense.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Hell, some captains could beat Kenpachi with their Shikais. Byakuya(duh),

Originally posted by dadudemon
Aizen(duh),

Originally posted by dadudemon
Soi Fon(she's much faster than Kenpachi. Two strikes, he's gone),

Originally posted by dadudemon
Mayuri(Mayuri was as fast as or faster than the genius level quincy. Plus, his shikai paralyzes upon contact. I don't see Kenpachi keeping up with a very fast captain AND using the quincy puppet technique that Ishida used),

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yamamoto (duh), Ukitake(duh), and Sunshui(duh). Hell, that's most captains that could beat him in just Shikai form. 😬

But all you're doing for Soifon and Myori, is giving them the benefit of the doubt and robbing Kenny of his.
Given his fighting ability he's more likely to land first blood, assuming he's not messing around.
You're relying on a misconception that they are much faster than Kenny in combat when nothing of the sort has been proven true. Likewise Kenny could Slice either of their heads off with one blow without eyepatch removal OR Kendo. 😬

Originally posted by dadudemon
Now do you see why I said this?

No I don't... since it's not true.. And infact proven false several times in the series already.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Seriously. Most of your points have either been in direct contradiction to the manga,

No.. that's what you've been doing Mr. "Kenny never fought both captains at once, he can't beat someone using Bankai etc etc..

Originally posted by dadudemon
willfully missing my point about shit being PIS (CIS),

Originally posted by dadudemon
or you making non sequitor arguments. Now you're making baseless ad hominem fallacies. This is not how you debate.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Correct.

And Tousen made the vast majority of attacks.

Sajin made 2 attacks.

Once he did his shikai attack with that huge giant arm. Then, he did a regular sword strike at the same time with Tousen. Sajin's reiatesu was destroying the ground around him as he flexed it. That's on par with Kenpachi.

Originally posted by dadudemon
On top of that, the databook puts them, correctly so, as equal offensive and strength. Sajin has better strength feats, though. (He didn't and probably couldn't knock away Sajin's sword. Instead, he flipped Sajin over like some sort of ninja. That's why Kenpachi is badass...not your lame fanboy reasons.)

In what blue hell has Sajin proven stronger? When he got stopped by a one handed parry from Kenpachi or when he got manhandled and tossed aside.
Christ it wasn't even a judo toss, he just grabbed Sajin and chucked him.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Also, are you trying to indirectly imply that Ichigo was stronger than both Tousen and Sajin put together? (At that time.)

Kenny has not a chance in hell of beating Yamamoto, Shunsui, or Ukitake, even with Shikai (Although I have my doubts on Ukitake).

Kenny and Ichigo also have Zanpakuto that are always released, because their spiritual energies are that enormous, Kenpachi directly said this.

Dadudemon, I may answer your post later...Or not. I don't really feel like typing that much again.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Kenny has not a chance in hell of beating Yamamoto, Shunsui, or Ukitake, even with Shikai (Although I have my doubts on Ukitake).

Kenny and Ichigo also have Zanpakuto that are always released, because their spiritual energies are that enormous, Kenpachi directly said this.

Dadudemon, I may answer your post later...Or not. I don't really feel like typing that much again.

Shunsui or Ukitake using shikai... I think is entirely left up to debate against an all out Kenny.

Shunshui even said something along the lines of his Shikai being dangerous to himself, so it's just a matter of who's better at taking advantage of the rules at play.