Jaden Korr vs Darth Malak

Originally posted by Advent
The key to winning the war against Malak's Sith Empire would be, of course, killing Malak. Revan was no more than ten feet away from Revan, yet he opted to flee from battle.

Wrong again. That was something added only in the dark side alternate choice options in Kotor 2, meaning it would be non-canon.

In Kotor 1 it was never stated that Malak was the only Sith in his regime that could operate the Star Forge. And according to Carth the Star Forge was the key to beating Malak's Sith, in the video I posted.

I even posted Carth's quote, are you seriously saying you missed Carth's quote? Nothing there about Malak being too much to handle for Revan.

So again, point out where Malak was toying with Revan? He throws up a few force powers and he is toying with him? Malak never implies that he is toying with them, he is deathly serious the whole time, seems like over analyzing of simple gameplay cues.

Originally posted by Allankles
But we're not talking about Vandar or whoever. We're talking about why Revan didn't go after Malak on the Leviathan. It was because of Carth's words about the Star Forge, and the Star Forge was far more threatening to the wider universe than a single Sith like Malak anyway.

YouTube video

"Bastila doesn't stand a chance against Malak, but we can't help her. [b]Not here. We have to get off this ship and find the Star Forge. That's the key to beating the Dark Lord!" - Carth

The primary reason Carth stops Revan from saving Bastil and looking to finish Malak, is because he believes it will compromise the Republic's efforts in trying to discover the Sith army's Star Forge.

Why are you guys arguing against in game evidence?

I'd expect this from Saxy who just ignores things he doesn't like, but you and Lucien are better than this. [/B]

This is great.. I wouldn't expect you to concede the millionth argument you've lost. In fact you're doing exactly what I expect from you. Continuously posting while getting your ass kicked.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
This is great.. I wouldn't expect you to concede the millionth argument you've lost. In fact you're doing exactly what I expect from you. Continuously posting while getting your ass kicked.

Aha! Yes claiming victory and all that, you've never missed a chance to say you've "won". Too bad its all hot air and posturing. I'd find you amusing if I didn't know you were actually serious. If you ignore in-game evidence I'll point it out, nothing to get elated about boy genius.

Originally posted by Allankles
Aha! Yes claiming victory and all that, you've never missed a chance to say you've "won". Too bad its all hot air and posturing. I'd find you amusing if I didn't know you were actually serious. If you ignore in-game evidence I'll point it out, nothing to get elated about boy genius.

No, I never miss a chance to claim victory when I kick your ass, which is all the time. And I also never miss a chance to watch you continue digging a hole for yourself, as you are doing.

Originally posted by Allankles
But we're not talking about Vandar or whoever. We're talking about why Revan didn't go after Malak on the Leviathan. It was because of Carth's words about the Star Forge, and the Star Forge was far more threatening to the wider universe than a single Sith like Malak anyway.

"Bastila doesn't stand a chance against Malak, but we can't help her. [b]Not here. We have to get off this ship and find the Star Forge. That's the key to beating the Dark Lord!" - Carth

The primary reason Carth stops Revan from saving Bastil and looking to finish Malak, is because he believes it will compromise the Republic's efforts in trying to discover the Sith army's Star Forge.

Why are you guys arguing against in game evidence?

I'd expect this from Saxy who just ignores things he doesn't like, but you and Lucien are better than this. [/B]

You've just manufactured your own defeat: "Bastila doesn't stand a chance against Malak, but we can't help her. Not here." Did you address why they couldn't help her? "...find the Star Forge. That's the key to beating the Dark Lord." That's the key. They didn't possess the key to beat Malak on the Leviathon so they had to strike at the heart of his war machine.

"...a single Sith like Malak." You're implying that he's just one man who can be overlooked. He's not. This one man is the only one in the Sith ranks capable of controlling the Star Forge. As we learn in the next game, there were none following Malak's demise with the power to harness the Star Forge, so it atrophied and was destroyed. Take out the Star Forge and you demolish their primary engine. But leave the Dark Lord alive and you allow the heart to escape. Unfortunately for the Trio, they didn't have the means to strike at the heart yet, "not here (on the Leviathon)".

By your own rationale, "Why are you (Allankles) arguing against in game evidence?"

Carth and Bastila were immobilized, Revan was sent spinning helplessly, and he went on to be frozen in place. Malak was toying with them. One extension of his arm and his longer-than-usual lightsaber would have skewered Revan. Instead (just like a Sith) he took the moment to gloat which allowed for Bastila's distraction.

This has been going on for pages now. I expect this kind of stubbornness and unwillingness to accept from S_W_Legend or Hewhoknowsshit, but not you.

Aha... you're serious about your blather, and that's the problem. Blather is blather dude.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Excuse me? Better than this? Better than what, a debate? That's this forum's purpose. It's a person whose ego is wounded who resorts to barely-veiled insinuations.

You've just manufactured your own defeat: "Bastila doesn't stand a chance against Malak, but we can't help her. [b]Not here." Did you address why they couldn't help her? "...find the Star Forge. That's the key to beating the Dark Lord." That's the key. They didn't possess the key to beat Malak on the Leviathon so they had to strike at the heart of his war machine. [/B]

Exactly the war machine, not Malak the person. He's just flesh and blood.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
"...a single Sith like Malak." You're implying that he's just one man who can be overlooked. He's not. This one man is the only one in the Sith ranks capable of controlling the Star Forge. As we learn in the next game, there were none following Malak's demise with the power to harness the Star Forge, so it atrophied and was destroyed. Take out the Star Forge and you demolish their primary engine. But leave the Dark Lord alive and you allow the heart to escape. Unfortunately for the Trio, they didn't have the means to strike at the heart yet, "not here (on the Leviathon)".

Which I already pointed out. It's only available info if we say Revan went dark and the Star Forge remained intact i.e. non canon. Beyond that it is not relevant to the Kotor 1 plot, I dare to say otherwise.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Carth and Bastila were immobilized

It was a one on one fight. Malak explains and effects the stipulations, nothing dramatic there.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Revan was sent spinning helplessly, and he went on to be frozen in place. Malak was toying with them. One extension of his arm and his longer-than-usual lightsaber would have skewered Revan. Instead (just like a Sith) he took the moment to gloat which allowed for Bastila's distraction.

Yes. Revan was hit by a force power, which is normal in a battle. Should I list how many people have had similar things happen to them in winning efforts? Malak delivers a monologue in which he never implies he was toying with Revan.

I'm not being stubborn there's nothing in Malak's words that implies he is in the mood to toy with Revan. His first words in the video tell you how badly he wants to kill Revan to prove to the Sith he's stronger. Using force powers to interrupt Revan's attacks is normal and is not an indication by themselves that he is toying with him.

You're getting caught up in the details. Like Malak could have done this or that, or thrown his lightsaber here. And because he didn't do such he must be toying with him. Did you ever think the gameplay system had a hand in the way the parts of the fight were designed?

Everything that is canon (the dialogue, read: not open to interpratation) doesn't support this idea.

Originally posted by Allankles
Exactly the war machine, not Malak the person. He's just flesh and blood.

Originally posted by Allankles
Which I already pointed out. It's only available info if we say Revan went dark and the Star Forge remained intact i.e. non canon. Beyond that it is not relevant to the Kotor 1 plot, I dare to say otherwise.

Originally posted by Allankles
It was a one on one fight. Malak explains and effects the stipulations, nothing dramatic there.

Originally posted by Allankles
Yes. Revan was hit by a force power, which is normal in a battle. Should I list how many people have had similar things happen to them in winning efforts? Malak delivers a monologue in which he never implies he was toying with Revan.

Originally posted by Allankles
I'm not being stubborn there's nothing in Malak's words that implies he is in the mood to toy with Revan. His first words in the video tell you how badly he wants to kill Revan to prove to the Sith he's stronger. Using force powers to interrupt Revan's attacks is normal and is not an indication by themselves that he is toying with him.

EDIT: Caught up in the details? One would only dismiss details when one knows that said details will prove unfruitful.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Don't do that. Answer my question. Why could they not help Bastila on the Leviathon?

Because according to Carth finding the last star map and subsequently the star forge was their priority, that Bastila had made a sacrifice to ensure they would escape the ship and get to the star map. Also they were in the middle of thousands of Sith, Malak or otherwise escape was vital to any future plan.

This was Carth's argument. Revan has no official problem with facing Malak and neither does Carth.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
There was also no Sith able to challenge Malak for control of the Empire. Malak was the Dark Lord, not an elected chief. He was the head. Cut it off, the body will fragment. If Revan and Co. could have killed Malak on the Leviathon, they would be removing the absolute authority in the empire, leaving the leaderless body to fight amongst itself for control of it and the Star Forge--exactly what happened (sans the Forge) following the war's end. So either Revan and Carth HAD the power to kill Malak but were too retarded, or they DIDN'T have the power and retreated. To you, which sounds more in tune with what we see?

The fighting would not have ended without the destruction of the SF at that time/ The Sith only fragmented after they lost the war or (in the alternate ds ending) after they won and had mostly themselves to fight amongst. As long as the Jedi remained a target and their military machine was still intact, you honestly think they would not have made a coalition to continue the war?

Malak was also a lousy strategist.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
They don't have to explicitly state every action and intention for it be obvious to the audience. When was the last time you completely incapacitated someone and left them open to a death blow with your laser sword, only to fall back?

Except this was not a full blown cutscene like Revan's capture or Kreia getting her hand cut off by Sion, this all took place in the middle of gameplay, using the same gameplay animations. There was no attempt at accuracy one way or the other.

It has to be hinted at, at least by Malak otherwise you're skiriting the realm of speculation.

There's no indication that he could've done a, b, c those are only assumptions. Using force powers has always been perfectly fine with that bioware combat system, when have you ever seen lightsaber's used in gameplay cued cutscenes in both Kotors?

The system only allowed for one off force powers to be demonstrated, unless it was a full on cutscene like Sion and Kreia on Peragus. The system was limited to those displays, anything beyond that and it's an entirely different discussion.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Exactly. Malak really wants to kill Revan. Just like Palaptine really wanted to kill the Jedi. And like Palpatine, Malak took the opportunity to rub it in his enemy's face that they were beaten and inferior. And like Palpatine, their arrogance had unfortunate consequences. It's normal to use the Force to block and interrupt attacks, but to freeze them in place and leave them at your mercy? That's only normal when you're better than them.

I don't see why we need to bring in other Sith. Palpy always killed Jedi without ceremony when his opportunities came. Other Sith also killed Jedi first chance they got, unless they wanted to turn them. We're talking about a combat system here that doesn't allow for that kind of detail. On top of this we have no indication from Malak that he is toying with anyone.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
EDIT: Caught up in the details? One would only dismiss details when one knows that said details will prove unfruitful.

Nothing in that whole scene offers anything beyond speculation. Seems to me you're giving Malak the Maul treatment without him having to earn it.

Allankles is an idiot.

Sure thing Pot.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sure thing Pot.

Your argument and right to post died pages ago.

I've never debated with you before, Allankles, or really read any of your arguments with others, so I offer up the benefit of the doubt. But when you (seemingly) unknowingly murder your own argument, I have a good idea of where you stand.

Originally posted by Allankles
Nothing in that whole scene offers anything beyond speculation.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I've never debated with you before, Allankles, or really read any of your arguments with others, so I offer up the benefit of the doubt. But when you (seemingly) unknowingly murder your own argument, I have a good idea of where you stand.

Stating that Malak could have, or would have done a, b, c and d without Malak even so much as hinting at such possibilities (with words or otherwise) falls under speculation.

There's never a suggestion from Malak that he is anything but serious, no indication from him that he is toying with Revan.

You're asking me to admit that two brief cutscenes interposed between the two parts of the duel are evidence he was toying with him? I refuse, Malak's stated intent doesn't support this.

As far as other Sith go, many Sith kill Jedi without ceremony and with so much less incentive than Malak.

And as I already mentioned, Carth already provided the plot's excuse for why Revan didn't go after Bastila and Malak, and it had nothing to do with Advent's idea of Malak being too much for the trio.

And this idiot keeps on typing.

Why must you always be so mean to everyone?

He probably has a small penis. Most men are overly aggressive because of feelings of inadequacy.

Actually, thats kind of a low blow, but the edit time is over so I need to actually type that I didn't mean that, sorry DS, and I hope theres no hard feelings.

I'm only mean to stupid people who don't know when to shut up. If there was nobody mean to them, they'd just keep on talking/typing.

Originally posted by Allankles
Stating that Malak could have, or would have done a, b, c and d without Malak even so much as hinting at such possibilities (with words or otherwise) falls under speculation.

There's never a suggestion from Malak that he is anything but serious, no indication from him that he is toying with Revan.

You're asking me to admit that two brief cutscenes interposed between the two parts of the duel are evidence he was toying with him? I refuse, Malak's stated intent doesn't support this.

As far as other Sith go, many Sith kill Jedi without ceremony and with so much less incentive than Malak.

And as I already mentioned, Carth already provided the plot's excuse for why Revan didn't go after Bastila and Malak, and it had nothing to do with Advent's idea of Malak being too much for the trio.