Kyle Katarn (peak) Vs. Dooku, ROTS

Started by Profligate4 pages

I think:

Dooku > Kyp
Dooku > Katarn

ADD friendly.

Quick question, and i'm guessing advent knows:

What feats WITH THE FORCE are credited to Katarn? I always in my minds eye think of him in Jedi Knight, and later in Jedi Academy, but everything shown there is gameplay mechanics. What do we have on Katarn that isn't up for debate?

OK, I had missed this post:

No, only that if such feats are so immense, why haven't Sidious and co used them to execute whatever threat was posed against them?

Yes, but as I previously mentioned, with such extraordinary powers (which i agree, are very useful), were of no use against their opposition.

And even if he is, where is it stated that he has become skilled enough to challenge Dooku?

Which (although, as noted, is silly) sums up your argument nicely.


No, only that if such feats are so immense, why haven't Sidious and co used them to execute whatever threat was posed against them?

Usually PIS. If N. can summon the bajillion tonnes of force required to lift the fleet then he can ragdoll the fvck out of three humanoids. Why didn't he? Because that wouldn't be fun for the player. Sidious has his own versions of PIS (getting shot by Han? 😬 Combined power of 3 Skywalkers? 😬 Losing control (I guess?) of his lightning on the DSII? 😬.)


Yes, but as I previously mentioned, with such extraordinary powers (which i agree, are very useful), were of no use against their opposition.

Yes, but as I previously mentioned, for the good guys to win (as they must) they have to win. To win they must be better than their enemy (which lends itself poorly to drama) or win by luck (PIS).


And even if he is, where is it stated that he has become skilled enough to challenge Dooku?

This is the job of someone with sources. I'm washing my hands of this point.

People shouldn't make threads like this. My level 1 force-insensitive consular killed Sion.

Kyle isn't found only in video games. So ur point faylz.

So you believe that Kyle is better than Dooku? Or are you only here to point out faulty assumptions? I'm here to learn.

Originally posted by Profligate
So you believe that Kyle is better than Dooku? Or are you only here to point out faulty assumptions? I'm here to learn.
Well when you have the learning capacity of a lemming, it's difficult to want to teach you.

Originally posted by Profligate
And did Kun's abilities serve him any good at the time of his death?

You mean that time where every single living Jedi in the Galaxy -- thousands of Jedi -- had gathered together to stop him, combined their powers and covered the planet he was stationed on in a giant wall of light attack, where Exar Kun proceeded to willingly shed himself from his physical body so as to escape their collective might?

I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make here; it appears that you think that by pointing out that Exar Kun wasn't invincible or unstoppable, that it somehow undermines the display of power and ability I mentioned, which while not perfect, was far above the norm and suggestive of power and ability on the very extreme of scales (and something that Dooku hasn't come close to matching), which could be applied in a number of situations.

Did Sidious kill Luke with a Force Storm?

Would he have to for the ability to have merit? Again, the capacity of destruction that the ability possesses (being able to consume entire fleets and tear the surface off of worlds, something that could prove useful in a variety of different situations) has already been established; that he didn't use it in any given situation, critical or otherwise, does not undermine that.

Did Sion (the immortal) kill the exile?

Would he have to for the ability to have merit? That he didn't kill the Exile in the certain amount of time that the game depicts, before the dialogue that leads on to his entirely willing death begins, fails to undermine the merits of the ability (the advantages it would provide, both in combat and life, as well as what it suggests about the tools that enabled him such a unique ability).

Did Nihilus' (with the power to destroy planets), manage to defeat one Jedi?

Would he have to for his displayed power to have merit? There were only a handful of Jedi remaining during the events of KotOR 2, he mostly operated behind the scenes, but even then he displayed significant superiority over the likes of both the uniquely powerful Darth Sion, as well as Darth Traya, (where he dominates both of them using the Force, on two separate occasions) who herself was able to literally toy with three Jedi High Council members before killing them with no real display of effort.

Their grand powers are unnecessary and excessive.

Even if that were true, it's what they suggest about the individuals using the "excessive" powers that is impressive.

But it's mostly not true; Luke Skywalker and Kyp Durron's manipulations of artificial black holes served the purpose of not only protecting their own forces from their power but also by turning it onto the opposing forces which granted them small scale wins during certain battles during the war. Darth Bane channelling all of that energy could be seen as fundamentally important in being able to devastate the Jedi forces that were stationed throughout the planet. Nihilus draining an entire planet of its inhabitants could be seen as essential for his own survival and satisfying his hunger. And the same applies for pretty much everything I stated; they all served a certain purpose, they were not unnecessary.

Is that what impresses you?

Displays of ability that deviate upwards and away from the norm to the greatest of extents? Yes. I will naturally be more impressed by the remarkable and spectacular than the unremarkable and the unspectacular.

So by your logic, Nihilus is held in higher regard than his killer because he drained a planet of all life?

No, my logic would be that Nihilus's displays of ability that deviate so significantly from the norm are far more impressive than displays that don't deviate so significantly form the norm, and they they suggest greater things about Nihilus than the less spectacular opposition.

Naturally, if his killer were to have defeated him in a manner that suggests superiority, than that in itself would be an extremely noteworthy display of ability that deviates heavily from the norm, and would suggest that he be of ability, at least in direct, close ranged combat, superior to Nihilus.

However, in this particular situation, we know that this wasn't the case; his "killer" was in fact three different opponents, who ambushed the Sith Lord in perhaps the weakest state we ever see him in, where he hadn't satisfied his hunger for days and was desperate for sustenance. Yet even then he displays the ability to quite casually place all three individuals into a stasis field, not only displaying firm superiority, even from a close range, but also leaving them completely at his mercy. Yet rather than going in for the kill, which he was entirely capable of, he decided to attempt to drain The Exile -- another wound in the Force -- of the Force, only to leave him further weakened. And yet even in this thoroughly weakened state, it required all three of them to take him down during a battle that was apparently so difficult that Visas Marr felt that he was still too strong for them and was almost giving up hope during it.

So really, if it was your intention to prove that he wasn't capable of defeating a single Jedi in close combat with all the power at his disposal, you failed miserably.

Dooku needs not to have obliterated a fleet of ships to simply strike down a Jedi.

Naturally, but if all that was required to qualify as "impressive" was the ability to strike down a Jedi, then Dooku would share that characteristic with many, many different combatants featured throughout the mythos.

Obliterating a fleet, however, would suggest that his powers are of a far greater level than what evidence thus far would suggest.

He was one of the most renowned swordsmen of all time,

Source and substantiate this.

and he had an unmatched mastery of Makashi.

Which is heavily undermined by how rarely practised the form was.

Where was Kyp Durron depicted as someone who was even in the same league as Dooku?

He wasn't; he was depicted as someone who was in a league several billions of leagues higher.

By displaying abilities that actually are impressive in the grand scheme of things (manipulating an artificial black hole, the gravitational field of which was so powerful that it was capable of dragging a moon out of its orbit), miles and miles above the norm and infinitely more spectacular than anything Dooku has ever displayed, he's depicted as being in an entirely different class. I'm sorry but based on what they've both displayed, Dooku doesn't come close.