Christianity in America

Started by Dresta5 pages

Re: Re: Christianity in America

Originally posted by WickedDynamite
I don't think the founding fathers depised religion. They were open to freedom of religion and worship what you like. As far as Jesus been a socialist...that is a stretch for me.

You are right, they did not despise religion in itself, more religious institutions.

And how is it a stretch :

1. Jesus owned nothing. 2. Jesus argued for the dissolution of the family and the establishment of communes. 3. Jesus loved all people regardless of ethnicity or class. 4. Jesus revolted against the imperial government, established religion and finance capitalism (usury). 5. Jesus taught that we should act as one body, one blood. 6. Jesus taught that his kingdom (ie nation state) is in the heart and not below the feet. 7. Jesus taught that we should fight for Justice and 'turn the other cheek' to petty morality. 8. Jesus was a laborer and a teacher. 9. Jesus practiced healing and forgiveness. 10. Jesus taught that you can't be an imperialist and a disciple at the same time.

Sounds like socialism to me. I'm sure you've heard the rich man/eye of a needle quote.

edit: Jefferson quote: "I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."
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actually, from what I've heard, the founding fathers were split on issues of religion. The most often quoted have been found to be very suspicious of religious institutions (as was Stalin, states should probably be against institutions that compete with them for power), but were there not also very pious individuals who founded the nation?

And if not, what does that tell you about the founding fathers? They would have been diametric opposites to the people they ruled with regards to faith.

Also, they held slaves and oppressed women.

Re: Re: Re: Christianity in America

Originally posted by Dresta
You are right, they did not despise religion in itself, more religious institutions.

And how is it a stretch :

1. Jesus owned nothing. 2. Jesus argued for the dissolution of the family and the establishment of communes. 3. Jesus loved all people regardless of ethnicity or class. 4. Jesus revolted against the imperial government, established religion and finance capitalism (usury). 5. Jesus taught that we should act as one body, one blood. 6. Jesus taught that his kingdom (ie nation state) is in the heart and not below the feet. 7. Jesus taught that we should fight for Justice and 'turn the other cheek' to petty morality. 8. Jesus was a laborer and a teacher. 9. Jesus practiced healing and forgiveness. 10. Jesus taught that you can't be an imperialist and a disciple at the same time.

Sounds like socialism to me. I'm sure you've heard the rich man/eye of a needle quote.

edit: Jefferson quote: "I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."
.

you should look up what Kores has to say about Jesus and the Sword. Selective interpretations of any religious text can make whatever point you want it to.

Except those aren't selective interpretations, they're direct from the text, and a recurrent theme.

did you look up Koresh's interpretations of Jesus and the Sword?

or look for direct quotes from jesus about what to do to non-believes, your own family if they don't believe, or his thoughts on slavery.

they might be jesus quotes, but like all other things in the Bible, jesus quotes are full of contradictions. Hell, Revolutionary Theology should be enough to prove jesus isn't a pacifist.

The founding fathers were non christian, mostly. They weren't non religious, most all of them were Deists. And while not holding any special love for christianity, they had no problem with other people practicing it.

Originally posted by King Kandy
The founding fathers were non christian, mostly. They weren't non religious, most all of them were Deists. And while not holding any special love for christianity, they had no problem with other people practicing it.

I think it was more of a mix:

Religion
Lambert (2003) has examined the religious affiliations and beliefs of the Founders. Some of the 1787 delegates had no affiliation. The others were Protestants except for three Roman Catholics: C. Carroll, D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons. Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Church of England (Episcopalian, after the Revolutionary War was won), eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutherans, two were Dutch Reformed, and two were Methodists, the total number being 49. Some of the more prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical or vocal about their opposition to organized religion, such as Thomas Jefferson[12][13] (who created the "Jefferson Bible"😉, and Benjamin Franklin[14]. However, other notable founders, such as Patrick Henry, were strong proponents of traditional religion. Several of the Founding Fathers considered themselves to be deists or held beliefs very similar to that of deists.[15]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers_of_the_United_States

That's true. I was mostly counting the ones we consider the most important (most americans can name them).

I always get a kick when someone says "We say 'UNDER GOD' in the pledge rabble rabble rabble." Horray for history, not to mention the fact that it never specifies either.

Originally posted by King Kandy
That's true. I was mostly counting the ones we consider the most important (most americans can name them).
Pretty sure Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were two of the most important.

Originally posted by Dresta
Pretty sure Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were two of the most important.

Yes, and they were both Deists... kind of the point I was making.

Jefferson was innaguarated with his hand on the Bible? 🤨

Originally posted by Shey Tapani
Jefferson was innaguarated with his hand on the Bible? 🤨

And ardent atheists still have to swear on the Bible in court, or if they're instated into most offices. What's your point?

Originally posted by Shey Tapani
Jefferson was innaguarated with his hand on the Bible? 🤨

Jefferson rewrote the bible because he thought the original version was stupid.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Jefferson rewrote the bible because he thought the original version was stupid.

I know that i just have a hard time imagining him swearing on the Bible.

Originally posted by Shey Tapani
I know that i just have a hard time imagining him swearing on the Bible.

If he hadn't sworn on the bible, I doubt most people of the day would have accepted him.

In the mean time, here's a few Thomas J. quotes:

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors. "

"Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."

"Religions are all alike – founded upon fables and mythologies."

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

Re: Christianity in America

Originally posted by Dresta
Can somebody please answer me why Americans feel the need to throw together the phrase 'God and country' as if they're somehow related. The teachings of Jesus couldn't be more against the idea of patriotism and ownership. I mean lets be honest, Jesus was quite clearly a socialist, and modern America is all about making money. Pretty contradictory don't you think?

Not to mention most of the founding fathers despised religion.

John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]

John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."

Patrick Henry:
"Orator of the Revolution."
• This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.”
—The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

“The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed.”

Thomas Jefferson:
“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

James Madison
“ We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.”

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

Thomas Paine:
“ It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles: he can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author.”
“ The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of his existence. They labour with studied ingenuity to ascribe every thing they behold to innate properties of matter, and jump over all the rest by saying, that matter is eternal.” “The Existence of God--1810”

George Washington:

Farewell Address: The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion" ...and later: "...reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle..."

“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”

“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]

"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian" [May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge]

During his inauguration, Washington took the oath as prescribed by the Constitution but added several religious components to that official ceremony. Before taking his oath of office, he summoned a Bible on which to take the oath, added the words “So help me God!” to the end of the oath, then leaned over and kissed the Bible.

~~~~~~
The Founding Fathers built this country on the principles of Christ.

Adams, James and George Washington. “Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11.” 1796-7.

The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.

Franklin, Benjamin. Benjamin Franklin, A Biography in his Own Words. 1758.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion . . . has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity.

Madison, James. Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments. 1785.

During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.

Paine, Thomas Robert. The Age of Reason. 1795.

Whenever we read the obscene stories [of The Bible], the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half The Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the Word of God.

Washington, George. The Writings of George Washington. 12 vols. 1834.

The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Jefferson rewrote the bible because he thought the original version was stupid.

He didn't rewrite it, he simply edited it. There's a difference.

Originally posted by 1000 Months
He didn't rewrite it, he simply edited it. There's a difference.

But no one can change the word of god. 🙄