pre-suit vader versus mace windu

anakin wasnt some "weak punk" who "couldnt control his emotions", what he is is EXTREMELY underated and his abilities are unrecognized, what he was before he lost his top-rail movement and speed to robotic 'enhancements' was a mother****ing hard knot beast, more skilled than dooku and obi-wan, and even mace windu, aside from a robotic right harm the force made his body a wrecking machine, physically he could lay mace, dooku and obi-wan down, he was younger, faster, stronger and dueled methodically in a violently fast manner

he cut a handful of trained jedi knights down, and cut padawans and younglings to pieces, he copied and even strenghtened dooku's saber techniques with his own knowledge and training in swordfighting, and then he used these improved techniques better than dooku used the original ones

fact is, mace windu is OVERATED BIG TIME, and gets his head choped off by pre-suit vader whe he's using half his skill

im callin' vader haters out, from wat ive the only people who think pre-suit vader wasnt as skilled as windu, also think windu beat sidious because he was a better duelist, ignorant to the fact that mace was escorted by 3 jedi masters, each able able to deal with a quadruple saber wielding killing machine known as grevious

without them, palps could have taken out mace with little effort

#1: Yoda
#2: Palps
#3: ANAKIN MOTHER ****ERS!!!

mace makes third in the jedi council, and is inferior to palps

this is not a debate, its a truth that some people need to hear

That load of crap made my eyes bleed.

Mace could solo Presuit Vader, familiar with Mace's saber style?

[QUOTE=12312520]Originally posted by \\S//

this is not a debate, its a truth that some people need to hear [QUOTE]

try to suck less.

Originally posted by \\S//
anakin wasnt some "weak punk" who "couldnt control his emotions", what he is is EXTREMELY [b]underated and his abilities are unrecognized, what he was before he lost his top-rail movement and speed to robotic 'enhancements' was a mother****ing hard knot beast, more skilled than dooku and obi-wan, and even mace windu, aside from a robotic right harm the force made his body a wrecking machine, physically he could lay mace, dooku and obi-wan down, he was younger, faster, stronger and dueled methodically in a violently fast manner

he cut a handful of trained jedi knights down, and cut padawans and younglings to pieces, he copied and even strenghtened dooku's saber techniques with his own knowledge and training in swordfighting, and then he used these improved techniques better than dooku used the original ones

fact is, mace windu is OVERATED BIG TIME, and gets his head choped off by pre-suit vader whe he's using half his skill

im callin' vader haters out, from wat ive the only people who think pre-suit vader wasnt as skilled as windu, also think windu beat sidious because he was a better duelist, ignorant to the fact that mace was escorted by 3 jedi masters, each able able to deal with a quadruple saber wielding killing machine known as grevious

without them, palps could have taken out mace with little effort

#1: Yoda
#2: Palps
#3: ANAKIN MOTHER ****ERS!!!

mace makes third in the jedi council, and is inferior to palps

this is not a debate, its a truth that some people need to hear [/B]

Originally posted by \\S//

without them, palps could have taken out mace with little effort

mace makes third in the jedi council, and is inferior to palps

this is not a debate, its a truth that some people need to hear

You mean the 10 seconds he required to kill Fisto, Kolar and Tiin would have done the trick? Mace defeated Palpatine in that duel with superior saber skill. Palpatine was holding back during the whole force lightning part, but not before.

This is a debate, you're being .... ignorant.

Yeah, this hasn't been done before.

w8

w8alittlemore

w8alittlebitfreakingmore...damn

w8alittlebitfreakingmore...jesusgawddamnitonastick!!!

**** this

Originally posted by \S//
anakin wasnt some "weak punk" who "couldnt control his emotions", what he is is EXTREMELY [b]underated and his abilities are unrecognized, what he was before he lost his top-rail movement and speed to robotic 'enhancements' was a mother****ing hard knot beast, more skilled than dooku and obi-wan, and even mace windu, aside from a robotic right harm the force made his body a wrecking machine, physically he could lay mace, dooku and obi-wan down, he was younger, faster, stronger and dueled methodically in a violently fast manner

he cut a handful of trained jedi knights down, and cut padawans and younglings to pieces, he copied and even strenghtened dooku's saber techniques with his own knowledge and training in swordfighting, and then he used these improved techniques better than dooku used the original ones

fact is, mace windu is OVERATED BIG TIME, and gets his head choped off by pre-suit vader whe he's using half his skill

im callin' vader haters out, from wat ive the only people who think pre-suit vader wasnt as skilled as windu, also think windu beat sidious because he was a better duelist, ignorant to the fact that mace was escorted by 3 jedi masters, each able able to deal with a quadruple saber wielding killing machine known as grevious

without them, palps could have taken out mace with little effort

#1: Yoda
#2: Palps
#3: ANAKIN MOTHER ****ERS!!!

mace makes third in the jedi council, and is inferior to palps

this is not a debate, its a truth that some people need to hear [/B]

...

GL stated that only Yoda and Mace could stand up to Sidious in the PT.

Mace Windu has more skill.
He has more experience.
He is smarter.
He has a greater command in the Force.
He has comparable strength.

Originally posted by \\S//
he copied and even strenghtened dooku's saber techniques with his own knowledge and training in swordfighting, and then he used these improved techniques better than dooku used the original ones

Where did u get this from?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
...

GL stated that only Yoda and Mace could stand up to Sidious in the PT.

Yeah but he didnt say Only Yoda or Sidious can stand up to Mace.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
...Mace Windu has more skill.

Debatable.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
...He has more experience.

So did Dooku. Didnt help him.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
...He is smarter..

Debatable.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
He has a greater command in the Force.

True. But again, so did Dooku, but that didnt help him.

I see Mace winning due to Vapaad using Anakin's anger against him. But thats it. Thats the only reason i see Mace winning.

Your saying "Mace is smarter" is debatable? Somehow i don't see Mace getting dismembered as carelessly as Anakin did, that wasn't a very smart move was it?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah but he didnt say Only Yoda or Sidious can stand up to Mace.

Yeah but he did indeed say that only Yoda and Mace can stand up to Sidious, NOT only Yoda, Mace and Anakin/Vader...that says something.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Debatable.

Like below, he has more experience (which contributes HEAVILY to skill), has a high level mastery of most forms, invented his own form that is arguably the deadliest of them all, and such. He also beat Sidious in a duel, which Vader wouldn't be able to do.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

So did Dooku. Didnt help him.

That's because Anakin tapped into the DS AND managed to control it:

Mace's Vapaad however would simply use that against Vader if he tried to use it, which Vader obviously would. However, Vader isn't as controled as Anakin, so he wouldn't control AND his anger would work AGAINST him via Vapaad.

WAIT...oh, I see the last part of your post. Even without the anti-DS power of Vapaad, Mace Windu is much more skill and command of the force. Pre suit Vader is also reckless.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Debatable.

Vader isn't nearly as smart as Mace. This is pretty obvious.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

True. But again, so did Dooku, but that didnt help him.

I see Mace winning due to Vapaad using Anakin's anger against him. But thats it. Thats the only reason i see Mace winning.

Pre suit Vader isn't as powerful as "in teh zone" Anakin. Dooku would handily beat pre suit Vader.

What about Mace being able to outduel Sidious and being able to crush super battle droids with his bare hands?

Overall, the only two advantages that Vader has are greater strength and raw Force reserves.

Yet again HWKA were agreeing on soemthing this change of events is beginning to worry me.

Spoiler:
To a small degree.

Originally posted by mattatom
Yet again HWKA were agreeing on soemthing this change of events is beginning to worry me.

Spoiler:
To a small degree.

Your grammar fails, but you agree with me, so you're cool.

Originally posted by mattatom
Your saying "Mace is smarter" is debatable? Somehow i don't see Mace getting dismembered as carelessly as Anakin did, that wasn't a very smart move was it?

Anakin was outsmarted by Obi-wan there who is definetely smarter than mace. the ROTS novel calls Obi-wan "the Council's most cunning warrior"

Hed already lost the fight before he made the jump.. "its over anakin, i have the high gorund.."

making the jump was less to do with intellect and more to do with arrogance and frustration at not being able to defeat his old master.. at a point where his mental focus was probably at the weakest it had ever been during that fight.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Yeah but he did indeed say that only Yoda and Mace can stand up to Sidious, NOT only Yoda, Mace and Anakin/Vader...that says something.

Actually if you read the whole quote, it continues "Anakin would have defeated the emporer had he not got all beat up"

also you have to remember Vapaad'ds advantage on darksiders is what allows him to compete with Sidious. He couldnt for example compete anywhere near as well against Yoda who was virtually Sidious's equal.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Like below, he has more experience (which contributes HEAVILY to skill), has a high level mastery of most forms, invented his own form that is arguably the deadliest of them all, and such. He also beat Sidious in a duel, which Vader wouldn't be able to do..

In RODV we are told Vader is trained in ALL lightsaber forms. This was not long after ROTS. Also Anakin is "as fine a user of Djem So as Dooku has ever seen"... Djem So like makashi is the only other sword form designed for duelling. But focuses more on raw power than makashi. its a powerful duelling form, so i wuldnt underestimate anakins duelling skill.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
That's because Anakin tapped into the DS AND managed to control it:

Mace's Vapaad however would simply use that against Vader if he tried to use it, which Vader obviously would. However, Vader isn't as controled as Anakin, so he wouldn't control AND his anger would work AGAINST him via Vapaad...

He taps into his rage quite natuarlly. According to Dooku he was "half sith already.."

he was simply too powerful for Dooku.. The novel makes that very clear.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Even without the anti-DS power of Vapaad, Mace Windu is much more skill and command of the force. Pre suit Vader is also reckless....

He certainly has better command of the force.. theres no doubt about that.. but im not convinced about duelling skill. I think people really underestimate Anakin's duelling skill on these boards. Reckless??

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Vader isn't nearly as smart as Mace. This is pretty obvious.....

HOws it obvious that Mace is much smarter than Anakin?? Do you not watch CW... How many epidoes does Anakin come up with an unorthodox plan on the spot which saves the day?? how often has Mace done that..

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Pre suit Vader isn't as powerful as "in teh zone" Anakin. Dooku would handily beat pre suit Vader......

Last time i checked "in teh zone" Anakin was pre-suit Anakin. Also I dnt buy this idea that was a one off for Anakin... I think he was more powerful than Dooku at that point.. Although after his visions of Padme began his mental focus probably wasnt quite there.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
What about Mace being able to outduel Sidious and being able to crush super battle droids with his bare hands?

Ouduelling Sidious was not due to superior skill or power. It was due to Vapaad's advantage over darksiders. Iv already admitted Mace would win for this reason.. Im just saying in terms of duelling skill and raw power Anakin is in league with Mace. Well at least he was eventually. Probably not at CW time period.

Yes Mace's command of the force was certainly superior, but once an intense duel begins that might not help. It didnt help Dooku, when Anakin was all over him (Dooku who disposes on Obiwan with a mere flick of the wrist) and it didnt seem to help sidious during his duel with Mace... Only when the duel was over and sidious was on the floor did he begin to unleash his force powers.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anakin was outsmarted by Obi-wan there who is definetely smarter than mace. the ROTS novel calls Obi-wan "the Council's most cunning warrior"

Hed already lost the fight before he made the jump.. "its over anakin, i have the high gorund.."

making the jump was less to do with intellect and more to do with arrogance and frustration at not being able to defeat his old master.. at a point where his mental focus was probably at the weakest it had ever been during that fight.

Originally posted by mattatom
Okay so Anakin lost the fight because Obi Wan said so? That doesn't work I can't really stand on top of a car in front of Tyson and say that. He won't just say, damn I can't reach you, It's over. Your arguing semantics, Anakin could have jumped further down the hill he could of gone around the side, he could of tried to pull Obi Wan off but no his 'smart' move cost him the rest of his organic extremities.

Thats your opinion that he "could of" done those things.. Ill trust Obiwan's opinion over yours, who was clearly confident that the fight was over at that point.. Obiwan whose "the most cunning warrior on the jedi council" according to ROTS novel..
And who is an expert at using his terrain to his advantage during battle. Id say his is a very well qualified opinion to take on what a jedi is capable off in that position.

and you dnt seem to be listening.. the jump was out of arrogance and frsutration that hed lost the fight against Obiwan... Hed already lost.. It was make the jump or surrender. That was the only choice. There was no other choice.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and you dnt seem to be listening.. the jump was out of arrogance and frsutration that hed lost the fight against Obiwan... Hed already lost.. It was make the jump or surrender. That was the only choice. There was no other choice.

HAHAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

No.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Thats your opinion that he "could of" done those things.. Ill trust Obiwan's opinion over yours, who was clearly confident that the fight was over at that point.. Obiwan whose "the most cunning warrior on the jedi council" according to ROTS novel..
And who is an expert at using his terrain to his advantage during battle. Id say his is a very well qualified opinion to take on what a jedi is capable off in that position.

and you dnt seem to be listening.. the jump was out of arrogance and frsutration that hed lost the fight against Obiwan... Hed already lost.. It was make the jump or surrender. That was the only choice. There was no other choice.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
HAHAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

No.

QFT

Obiwan whose "the most cunning warrior on the jedi council" according to ROTS novel

You can not be serious by saying Obi Wan is smarter than Mace? Wonder why Yoda thought it wouldn't even be worth the effort for Obi Wan to fight Sidious.

Anakin is not as skilled as Mace, nor as powerful.